Ryanair's view on fatigue (merged)
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The way to handle this is for the union to write to the IAA and get there view of it in writing. The IAA either respect the ops. manual and a crewmembers right to decide if they are fatigued or not.
Its a yes or no.
If they respect it then they should take appropriate action against Ryanair or if they don't then let them go public on it and let them take responsibility for an incident where fatigue is a factor.
It wouldn't happen with the CAA. Only in crooked little, back slapping, brown envelope Ireland.
I don't know the legal JAR ops situation but way back when all this talk of JAR ops was going on I understood that jar ops member states would cross check each other.
If other member states sit back and allow another progressive?? member state, sit on the fence then they are as compliant in bringing on an incident.
We have had to many close incidents that could be put down to fatigue/stress. What are we waiting for??
Its a yes or no.
If they respect it then they should take appropriate action against Ryanair or if they don't then let them go public on it and let them take responsibility for an incident where fatigue is a factor.
It wouldn't happen with the CAA. Only in crooked little, back slapping, brown envelope Ireland.
I don't know the legal JAR ops situation but way back when all this talk of JAR ops was going on I understood that jar ops member states would cross check each other.
If other member states sit back and allow another progressive?? member state, sit on the fence then they are as compliant in bringing on an incident.
We have had to many close incidents that could be put down to fatigue/stress. What are we waiting for??
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Bacardi walla
getting another job is not the solution, fighting the case is the best way, and this sets a precident.
Ryanair have, if i have all the facts correct, said that if you decide not to fly because in your opinion that you are too tired, we can demote you. This means that we are now putting undue pressure on you which will compromise safety.
I would think that the pilot in question would have a very sound case to take to the courts.
I would also say that if the company had an effective union this would definately have led to a stoppage.
The management have got to start appreciating that the safety record of the company could be compromised by such intimidation.
If someone in management is reading this then take the time to listen to your pilots.
getting another job is not the solution, fighting the case is the best way, and this sets a precident.
Ryanair have, if i have all the facts correct, said that if you decide not to fly because in your opinion that you are too tired, we can demote you. This means that we are now putting undue pressure on you which will compromise safety.
I would think that the pilot in question would have a very sound case to take to the courts.
I would also say that if the company had an effective union this would definately have led to a stoppage.
The management have got to start appreciating that the safety record of the company could be compromised by such intimidation.
If someone in management is reading this then take the time to listen to your pilots.
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Forget the IAA, they'll only agree with FR management.
I think the CAA should be involved, after all i'm sure the flight in question would have flown in their airspace.
Then perhaps, FR management would think twice about messing with peoples lives............
The mark has now been overstepped......................
I think the CAA should be involved, after all i'm sure the flight in question would have flown in their airspace.
Then perhaps, FR management would think twice about messing with peoples lives............
The mark has now been overstepped......................
I call you back
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The way to handle this is for the union to write to the IAA and get there view of it in writing.
While one can understand the constant references to the IAA here you have to remember in Ireland the IAA are just the doormen. They collect your money on your way in but what goes on inside is some one else's problem.
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Question. Which is the most common a/c registration seen on foreign based a/c? Why, EI of course. But what is odd, is that the Italian ones operate to Italian FCL's under the IT CAA; OK it is a pasta airline, but the UK based ones operate to Irish FTL's under the IAA. How come they can have it both ways? But there must surely be something going on if everyone who wants an easy reg' can get an Irish one.
About this case; 2 points.
Surely there is a case for the labour courts. An unfair short-term demotion is similar to a temporary 'unfair dismissal' from rank. Where is the guarantee that he will be reinstated? No doubt 6 months of company minded behaviour will be assessed. Then there is the command check to pass. Ah! There-in lies the RYR bullet. Fail that and you can be dismissed completely. What would have happened if the F/O had refused; demoted to purser?
However; about the call for a letter to the IAA. Does Eire have an ANO? If so the FTL's are incorportaed in that. The ANO is parlimentary law. Thus a letter to the PM, copied to IAA, stating that RYR have violated the OPs manual under a section covered by the ANO, and thus national law, etc. etc........ Sure to hit the newspapers at least. But then what's new.
About this case; 2 points.
Surely there is a case for the labour courts. An unfair short-term demotion is similar to a temporary 'unfair dismissal' from rank. Where is the guarantee that he will be reinstated? No doubt 6 months of company minded behaviour will be assessed. Then there is the command check to pass. Ah! There-in lies the RYR bullet. Fail that and you can be dismissed completely. What would have happened if the F/O had refused; demoted to purser?
However; about the call for a letter to the IAA. Does Eire have an ANO? If so the FTL's are incorportaed in that. The ANO is parlimentary law. Thus a letter to the PM, copied to IAA, stating that RYR have violated the OPs manual under a section covered by the ANO, and thus national law, etc. etc........ Sure to hit the newspapers at least. But then what's new.
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Wing Commander Fowler, I thought had more "pluck" than that. But I am being too harsh. I understand the fear that you must have for both yourself and your family.
The question is, which way do you and your fellow employees want your relationship with FR to go? Do you want to be respected more or less by the company? Do you want to feel the pressure to operate in questionable circumstances or do you want the company to respect your judgement? What sort of company do you want to be working for in 5 years time (assuming you don't bail out)?
It seems to me that it is the employees' fear that the FR management revels in. Like any bully, they won't stop until they are given a bloody nose. Once that's done, a bully generally tries to become your best friend.
You folks can't even maintain your present conditions (let alone improve them) as individuals. That can only be done together. It's your call.
Good luck,
LP
The question is, which way do you and your fellow employees want your relationship with FR to go? Do you want to be respected more or less by the company? Do you want to feel the pressure to operate in questionable circumstances or do you want the company to respect your judgement? What sort of company do you want to be working for in 5 years time (assuming you don't bail out)?
It seems to me that it is the employees' fear that the FR management revels in. Like any bully, they won't stop until they are given a bloody nose. Once that's done, a bully generally tries to become your best friend.
You folks can't even maintain your present conditions (let alone improve them) as individuals. That can only be done together. It's your call.
Good luck,
LP
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Wingco is a bit tired to answer now,he had a long day. . he he. . We are trying believe me,but I challenge you to find a more disparate, culturally diversified bunch than RYR.That,among many factors, is one of the things inhibiting us sorting this whole mess out;however, current events in Dublin would suggest we might be finally making a bit of progress;don't think this demotion hasn't galvanised opinion at least a little.
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Getting back to my earlier point.
My personel view would be that IALPA could do worse than take a leaf out of the RYR book and drag the IAA through the courts on a charge of not having safety as a matter of importance.
For failure to implement due dilligence in seeing the ops. manual was adhered to.
If nothing else you would generate such adverse publicity for the IAA that it would become political.
Ryanair operate crewvans in Dublin airport that would have you arrested if you took them onto the open road in any civilised state. Un roadworthy and unsafe.
Where am I going with this??
Only in this banana republic (Geldof was right) would this be allowed to happen.
Occosionally, the IAA want to be seen to do something to RYR and will tell them that flight plan envelopes must be a certain size or something stupid.
Lets remind ourselves of what happened here.
A capt. is feeling fatigued and is not prepared to do extra sectors on a point of safety. Exactly as the Ryanair produced, IAA approved Ops. manual states he has a duty to do.
He gets demoted by RYR and the IAA scratch their arses.
My contempt is for the IAA. Not so much Ryanair, I expect nothing else from them.
The IAA are the guilty ones here.
Shame on them.
My personel view would be that IALPA could do worse than take a leaf out of the RYR book and drag the IAA through the courts on a charge of not having safety as a matter of importance.
For failure to implement due dilligence in seeing the ops. manual was adhered to.
If nothing else you would generate such adverse publicity for the IAA that it would become political.
Ryanair operate crewvans in Dublin airport that would have you arrested if you took them onto the open road in any civilised state. Un roadworthy and unsafe.
Where am I going with this??
Only in this banana republic (Geldof was right) would this be allowed to happen.
Occosionally, the IAA want to be seen to do something to RYR and will tell them that flight plan envelopes must be a certain size or something stupid.
Lets remind ourselves of what happened here.
A capt. is feeling fatigued and is not prepared to do extra sectors on a point of safety. Exactly as the Ryanair produced, IAA approved Ops. manual states he has a duty to do.
He gets demoted by RYR and the IAA scratch their arses.
My contempt is for the IAA. Not so much Ryanair, I expect nothing else from them.
The IAA are the guilty ones here.
Shame on them.
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I really never thought I would see Ryanair sink this low. My contempt of this company can not be expressed adequately by words. They are truly despicable.
As for the IAA, if they take no action on this case, they need to be publicly shamed in the media. I take it that this has been formally reported to the IAA by somebody, or is IALPA expected to take the lead?
As for the IAA, if they take no action on this case, they need to be publicly shamed in the media. I take it that this has been formally reported to the IAA by somebody, or is IALPA expected to take the lead?
Paxing All Over The World
Low-Pass
I am an outsider, just a traveller and observer but I think I can tell you that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that they can get the company to respect them. There is NO ACTION that they can take. The company will NEVER respect them. It is a one-way street. I say this because of what I have read over the years but it is illustrated very neatly in MoLs own words.
From The Independent Traveller supplement [UK newspaper] 5th November 2005. The article explains why Ryan Air will remain a domestic European carrier. MoL says: "All cabin crew and pilots want to fly transatlantic routes so they can ar$e around in New York all weekend instead of spending 25 minutes in Luton."
So, rather than the crew managing to get the legal minimum of rest, MoL thinks they are going to be making money and only HE should be making money. "It's much more efficient to be a bus service around Europe than a kind of charter holiday operation for flight crew so they can be on the doss in the Caribbean or New York."
Does that say it clearly enough?
The question is, which way do you and your fellow employees want your relationship with FR to go? Do you want to be respected more or less by the company? Do you want to feel the pressure to operate in questionable circumstances or do you want the company to respect your judgement?
From The Independent Traveller supplement [UK newspaper] 5th November 2005. The article explains why Ryan Air will remain a domestic European carrier. MoL says: "All cabin crew and pilots want to fly transatlantic routes so they can ar$e around in New York all weekend instead of spending 25 minutes in Luton."
So, rather than the crew managing to get the legal minimum of rest, MoL thinks they are going to be making money and only HE should be making money. "It's much more efficient to be a bus service around Europe than a kind of charter holiday operation for flight crew so they can be on the doss in the Caribbean or New York."
Does that say it clearly enough?
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Yep great to visit all these overseas destinations, but it does wear thin on your umptienth visit living out of a suitcase spending most of your time down route and days off at home trying to restore the fatigue levels to a norm.
Wish it was like going on holiday every time. Not like MoL jetting off for a bit of R & R in some 5 star hotel travelling 1st class with ones chosen friends.
Still prefer the lifestyle to short haul multi sector days though, as tend to get more days off at home with less roster changes and daily disruption.
Wish it was like going on holiday every time. Not like MoL jetting off for a bit of R & R in some 5 star hotel travelling 1st class with ones chosen friends.
Still prefer the lifestyle to short haul multi sector days though, as tend to get more days off at home with less roster changes and daily disruption.
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MoL will go the same way as Gerald Ratner if he doesnt watch his step
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Where is the response from the shaggy 4 legged beast of burden? He's been quiet of late, but them perhaps over occupied tipping forelock to too many judges.
The question has not been asked as to why Leo chose a pseudonym which is an anagram of M. O'L's full name. Curious. Split persoanality or devotion beyond the call......
The question has not been asked as to why Leo chose a pseudonym which is an anagram of M. O'L's full name. Curious. Split persoanality or devotion beyond the call......
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And whats wrong with arseing around N.Y. all weekend
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Capt was reported by ops due to the fact that he would not contact operations in Dub. He sent message back to Dub via Lgw ops that he would not do another two sectors. When he landed in Dub he was met by an ops guy and he told him that the other flight that had just landed was doing the flights. When the ops guy got over to the other aircraft he asked the crew if they knew about the flights which they did not but said they would go out and do them.
The main problem was the way the Capt carried on. He showed no respect for operations or anybody else. The sectors were being taken off another crew due to the fact they were running late so of course ops were going to ask the first lander to do the extra sectors instead of keeping another crew out there running so late. Im sure if it had been him running so late he would have expected ops to do the same and another crew go out and do his sectors.
The main problem was the way the Capt carried on. He showed no respect for operations or anybody else. The sectors were being taken off another crew due to the fact they were running late so of course ops were going to ask the first lander to do the extra sectors instead of keeping another crew out there running so late. Im sure if it had been him running so late he would have expected ops to do the same and another crew go out and do his sectors.
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Bluetop....big difference between would not and COULD not. In ryanair once you leave the dublin area their is no way to contact them, no hf on aircraft, no company mobile phone on the aircraft. They were told to contact dublin ops as the dispatcher gave them the load sheet and were about to close. At some point between push back and airborne the sent a message via serviceair at gatwick to say the COULD not do extra sectors, because in his professional opinion he was fatigued and it could compromise air safety.
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He could have rang from his own mobile or went into the office to call. Operations could have had any kind of message for him but he knew what they wanted him for. The crew could have called into operations before they landed but they didnt.
Im not saying what happened to him was right but he should have called in
Im not saying what happened to him was right but he should have called in