Nice 25 Oct
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: N 43° 39' 54'' E 7° 12' 53''
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The problem with Nice is like the rest of France you conduct most of your ATC in French, instead of Standard English !! If as you say the ATC told him to expedite his take off, it was in such bad English that 'Chuck' didn't understand the non standard instruction !! You guys had probaly spoken to A/C on final in French so the guy had no mental picture as to what was going on ?????? I suggest you people at Nice go and learn English and then use it ?????????It would help improve safety at nice a lot !
ATP
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ATP
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Now thanks for your concern about our english level and that's very kind of you towards somebody who is making the effort to answer in your language !
Now if you allow me, excuse my French I will just suggest that : Va te faire voir chez les grecs !
Last edited by Eva San; 30th Oct 2005 at 17:49.
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Eva San
Wouldn't you file reports of aborted take-offs at Nice ATC ? Reports get filed at most other aerodomes when something "non-standard" happens. Surely it would be really easy for you to find out what happened here. Why would a B737 abort take-off? Was it customs, or did ATC cock up? If customs asked for an aircraft to abort, I as the ATC would really think twice before I consider giving such an instruction........
Wouldn't you file reports of aborted take-offs at Nice ATC ? Reports get filed at most other aerodomes when something "non-standard" happens. Surely it would be really easy for you to find out what happened here. Why would a B737 abort take-off? Was it customs, or did ATC cock up? If customs asked for an aircraft to abort, I as the ATC would really think twice before I consider giving such an instruction........
Just a numbered other
Eva San
Don't forget that Nice has a perfectly normal ILS approach available to 04, which would need no special training.
But, of course, you don't use it as it would mean a little bit of noise for the rich people on Cap d'Antibes (who are probably the users of the corporate jets).
Don't forget that Nice has a perfectly normal ILS approach available to 04, which would need no special training.
But, of course, you don't use it as it would mean a little bit of noise for the rich people on Cap d'Antibes (who are probably the users of the corporate jets).
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Ark,
As a part-time resident I can assure you that perversely there is more noise generated on the Cap when Rivieras are in force rather than the ILS to 04L, especially from the "home team" Airbus guys who are inclined to see how close they can come to cutting the corner without getting a bollocking! BA and Easy seem much better at track keeping towards Cagnes.
The BA, Delta and Emirates 767s seem to do the best job - thanks guys!
By the way, I can assure you that very few of us aspire to corporate jet status, you must be confusing us with Cap Martin and Cap Ferrat!
As a part-time resident I can assure you that perversely there is more noise generated on the Cap when Rivieras are in force rather than the ILS to 04L, especially from the "home team" Airbus guys who are inclined to see how close they can come to cutting the corner without getting a bollocking! BA and Easy seem much better at track keeping towards Cagnes.
The BA, Delta and Emirates 767s seem to do the best job - thanks guys!
By the way, I can assure you that very few of us aspire to corporate jet status, you must be confusing us with Cap Martin and Cap Ferrat!
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Eva San
...who is making the effort to answer in your language !
Let´s be honest, English is the aviation language and the appaling level of English spoken by French pilots and ATC is a serious safety issue. "Making an effort" just isn´t good enough! I´ve heard many stories of pilots needing assistance from French ATC and the reply was that they didn´t understand.
From my personal experience in France: sick passenger on board so we asked ATC to have a doctor meet us at the aircraft upon arrival.
ATC: "Are you declaring an Emergency?"
Us: "Negative, we just need medical assistance when we reach our parking position."
ATC: "errrrrrrrrrr, say again!"
Us: "Negative, we just need medical assistance when we reach our parking position."
ATC: "errrrrrr I don´t understand."
Us: "we need a doctor after we land and reach the gate."
ATC: "errrrrrrrrrrrr???"
At this point a French pilot overhearing our struggle interveined and translated everything in French.
Final result: a lot of additional (and unnecessary) stress and....of course no doctor when we reached the parking stand.
Luckily it was only a minor problem so the passenger could wait for medical assistance to arrive but it makes you wonder what will happen if you have an engine on fire and you need some radar vectors to the nearest ILS!
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Wouldn't you file reports of aborted take-offs at Nice ATC ? Reports get filed at most other aerodomes when something "non-standard" happens. Surely it would be really easy for you to find out what happened here. Why would a B737 abort take-off? Was it customs, or did ATC cock up?
Don't forget that Nice has a perfectly normal ILS approach available to 04, which would need no special training.
But, of course, you don't use it as it would mean a little bit of noise for the rich people on Cap d'Antibes (who are probably the users of the corporate jets).
But, of course, you don't use it as it would mean a little bit of noise for the rich people on Cap d'Antibes (who are probably the users of the corporate jets).
Second point, what do you suggest for runway 22, that we only accept BAe146 or other capable aircrafts on a let's say 6° ILS ?
Obviously you're not so familiar with the geography of Nice. The Riviera approach causes much more nuisance to the Cap d'Antibes than the ILS 04. The ILS 04 path goes over the city of Antibes which is a much more crowded but less wealthy place than the Cap itself. Let me tell you that even if the prices are quite high in Antibes, they nowhere quite compare to the ones in the Cap d'Antibes.
What do you mean with "your language?" Why do you assume that everybody is a native English speaker?
Let´s be honest, English is the aviation language and the appaling level of English spoken by French pilots and ATC is a serious safety issue. "Making an effort" just isn´t good enough! I´ve heard many stories of pilots needing assistance from French ATC and the reply was that they didn´t understand.
Let´s be honest, English is the aviation language and the appaling level of English spoken by French pilots and ATC is a serious safety issue. "Making an effort" just isn´t good enough! I´ve heard many stories of pilots needing assistance from French ATC and the reply was that they didn´t understand.
And let's be honest, English is not the only aviation language (ever heard of Icao languages ? )...
I agree that making an effort just isn't good enough, but you probably turn a few examples in what you consider to be an undeniable truth ... You always remember the bad points and then you forget that the rest of the time everything goes well.
I 've had some non native english speaker ( obviously not french) almost unable to understand a few basics orders (headings, altitudes...)and yet I don't consider it as a general rule for those pilots. We do have some weaknesses but we're working on it !
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Hey Doug, i completely accept the fact that French ATC's english could be better, but actually it's the same for numerous non-english native speakers.
That's why we (are supposed to?) use standard phraseology.
errr... for your personnal example, have you ever heard the expression "Pan pan medical" til today?
That's why we (are supposed to?) use standard phraseology.
errr... for your personnal example, have you ever heard the expression "Pan pan medical" til today?
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Just for information:
The Riviera procedure is not used to protect the rich "Cap d'Antibes" but to protect the middle class downtown.
In fact, the Riviera produces a higher noise level along the "rich" area than the ILS.
A "classic" reason for the ATC (at least in Nice) to ask an acft to "expedite T/O" would be that... it just takes to long!
It never stops surprising new atcos, coming from bigger airport (CDG or ORY), to see that what goes smoothly in Paris, always seems to take close to eternity in Nice. When we ask, prior to the T/O clearance, if an acft is "ready for T/O", and the answer is "Yes", then we expect the guy in the cockpit to release the breaks within a few secs of the clearance, not 1 minute latter (I know that sound stupid, but...)!
If we wait 1 min, then ask to "expedite", chances are the message will be sent when (or just afer) the T/O run starts.
Like Eva San just said, we just append to have some limitations (mountains, cities, rich peoples... being french), and are trying to do our best.
The Riviera procedure is not used to protect the rich "Cap d'Antibes" but to protect the middle class downtown.
In fact, the Riviera produces a higher noise level along the "rich" area than the ILS.
A "classic" reason for the ATC (at least in Nice) to ask an acft to "expedite T/O" would be that... it just takes to long!
It never stops surprising new atcos, coming from bigger airport (CDG or ORY), to see that what goes smoothly in Paris, always seems to take close to eternity in Nice. When we ask, prior to the T/O clearance, if an acft is "ready for T/O", and the answer is "Yes", then we expect the guy in the cockpit to release the breaks within a few secs of the clearance, not 1 minute latter (I know that sound stupid, but...)!
If we wait 1 min, then ask to "expedite", chances are the message will be sent when (or just afer) the T/O run starts.
Like Eva San just said, we just append to have some limitations (mountains, cities, rich peoples... being french), and are trying to do our best.
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There are a million good reasons why someone wanted that aircraft kept on the ground and I think it is you who is showing a degree of naiveté.
Someone in authority wanted that aircraft stopped and that is what happened.
Perhaps they hadn't paid the parking fees!
no ken is in nice airport now it is congestion charge the yank did not pay his and bang look what happened
Someone in authority wanted that aircraft stopped and that is what happened.
Perhaps they hadn't paid the parking fees!
no ken is in nice airport now it is congestion charge the yank did not pay his and bang look what happened
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chiglet,
what I'm reffering to is not the:
"not ready on reaching" type of crew, but the:
"I'm not really ready, but as I don't want to loose 2 min waiting for the next landing (310m between RWYs), I say that I am even if I still need another minute".
what I'm reffering to is not the:
"not ready on reaching" type of crew, but the:
"I'm not really ready, but as I don't want to loose 2 min waiting for the next landing (310m between RWYs), I say that I am even if I still need another minute".
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Just curious.
Despite language...
understandings and misunderstandings aside...
whose flying the aeroplane?
ATC or the designated flight crew?
If this aircraft and crew were required by ATC, Customs, some huffy VIP...whatever, would completion of a normal circuit to a normal landing not have been safer?
I'm also curious to know why a corporate operation flying multi million dollar aircraft for a presumably 'highly paid, responsible for 1,000s of employees and multi million dollar deals' CEO doesn't know his/her ACTUAL weight?
One last question, has the flying of aeroplanes truly been left to a bunch of trained 'monkeys' as several friends so regularly and insultingly point out?
Curious minds wish to know.
Despite language...
understandings and misunderstandings aside...
whose flying the aeroplane?
ATC or the designated flight crew?
If this aircraft and crew were required by ATC, Customs, some huffy VIP...whatever, would completion of a normal circuit to a normal landing not have been safer?
I'm also curious to know why a corporate operation flying multi million dollar aircraft for a presumably 'highly paid, responsible for 1,000s of employees and multi million dollar deals' CEO doesn't know his/her ACTUAL weight?
One last question, has the flying of aeroplanes truly been left to a bunch of trained 'monkeys' as several friends so regularly and insultingly point out?
Curious minds wish to know.
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Two things;
When I was trained many moons ago, we were advised to issue an abort instruction only if the takeoff roll was a few seconds old and the aircraft's inertia hadn't had a chance to build up to a significant degree. Admittedly, that was a judgement call, but it made sense to me. If the aircraft had reached a point in its takeoff where you, as an ATCO, couldn't easily determine whether an abort should be issued, simply advise the pilot as clearly as possible of the threat to the aircraft and leave it in his/her hands to decide what to do.
Secondly, if you want an expeditious departure (a) ascertain that the aircraft is ready immediate and (b) when the takeoff clearance is issued, clarify it with "Do not stop on the runway, cleared immediate takeoff!!".
When I was trained many moons ago, we were advised to issue an abort instruction only if the takeoff roll was a few seconds old and the aircraft's inertia hadn't had a chance to build up to a significant degree. Admittedly, that was a judgement call, but it made sense to me. If the aircraft had reached a point in its takeoff where you, as an ATCO, couldn't easily determine whether an abort should be issued, simply advise the pilot as clearly as possible of the threat to the aircraft and leave it in his/her hands to decide what to do.
Secondly, if you want an expeditious departure (a) ascertain that the aircraft is ready immediate and (b) when the takeoff clearance is issued, clarify it with "Do not stop on the runway, cleared immediate takeoff!!".
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ATCO1962, I would assume that using this phraseo would be enough:
As for the first part of your answer, I do agry.
Only in that case we don't really know what took place! (and probably never will)
CTL: P4*** are you ready for immediate T/O?
PIL: P4***: Affirm, ready immediate
CTL: P4***, cleared immediate T/O RWY...
PIL: P4***: Affirm, ready immediate
CTL: P4***, cleared immediate T/O RWY...
Only in that case we don't really know what took place! (and probably never will)
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duna,
You're absolutely right; that phraseology should suffice, but often wasn't enough. The qualifier seemed to emphasise that the urgency of a speedy takeoff was paramount. Once I started using it, I can't remember having a problem.
As for issuing an abort to an aircraft doing 100kts+ (if this was the case), you're starting to venture towards V1 territory anyway, so why get yourself and the pilot into a very sticky situation?
You're absolutely right; that phraseology should suffice, but often wasn't enough. The qualifier seemed to emphasise that the urgency of a speedy takeoff was paramount. Once I started using it, I can't remember having a problem.
As for issuing an abort to an aircraft doing 100kts+ (if this was the case), you're starting to venture towards V1 territory anyway, so why get yourself and the pilot into a very sticky situation?
