Delta & Northwest file for Chapter 11
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: West
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LGS6753 statement an error
LGS6753 said: and suffer the same fuel cost as Southwest
I will argue that no other US carrier pays the same fuel cost as Southwest.
"Southwest's chief, Gary C. Kelly, said airlines could not grow and become
profitable by making workers pay the price.
"If you don't treat your people right, you pay the price," said Mr. Kelly,
whose unionized airline pays some of the highest wages in the industry, even
though its overall costs are among the lowest.
Mr. Kelly, whose low-fare airline has a higher market capitalization than all
its major rivals combined, likewise had little sympathy for the pain that
fuel prices had inflicted on Northwest and Delta.
Neither company has contracts protecting them from the rise in prices, while
Southwest locked in the price of 85 percent of the fuel it plans to
purchase this year."
DAL Mgt had some fuel hedging in place last year, but sold it for short term benefits (funding senior Mgt pension insurance?). Both airlines mgt teams chose to avoid hedging during the last 12-18 months.
Southwest is the only carrier to significantly hedge. No other US airline pays the same fuel costs as Southwest.
I will argue that no other US carrier pays the same fuel cost as Southwest.
"Southwest's chief, Gary C. Kelly, said airlines could not grow and become
profitable by making workers pay the price.
"If you don't treat your people right, you pay the price," said Mr. Kelly,
whose unionized airline pays some of the highest wages in the industry, even
though its overall costs are among the lowest.
Mr. Kelly, whose low-fare airline has a higher market capitalization than all
its major rivals combined, likewise had little sympathy for the pain that
fuel prices had inflicted on Northwest and Delta.
Neither company has contracts protecting them from the rise in prices, while
Southwest locked in the price of 85 percent of the fuel it plans to
purchase this year."
DAL Mgt had some fuel hedging in place last year, but sold it for short term benefits (funding senior Mgt pension insurance?). Both airlines mgt teams chose to avoid hedging during the last 12-18 months.
Southwest is the only carrier to significantly hedge. No other US airline pays the same fuel costs as Southwest.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Delta Pay
I have a friend who is a sim instructor for Delta. He had a captain who had been downgraded from the MD-11 to the left-hand seat of the 767. He wasn't very happy and complained that he had to take a $50,000 cut in pay. When asked what his MD-11 pay was, the guy said it was $350,000!. My final monthly pay cheque after tax as a Captain for Air Europe Italy was about $6000 and that included expenses. AEI also went bust. They don't go into Chapter 11 in Europe--they just go bust. To quote Warren Buffett
the financial guru "anyone who puts money into airlines needs his head examined".
the financial guru "anyone who puts money into airlines needs his head examined".
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am reminded of the massive displacement of the working force a century ago - when Henry Ford put buggywhip makers, blacksmiths, and streetsweepers out of work with his mass-produced auto.
An evil conspiracy, I tell you!
An evil conspiracy, I tell you!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ON the bridge linking Wonderland and Hell
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Economics and evolution
This is not to bash anyone, but Lots of employees who end up working for/at airlines; majority of pilots, probably all mechanics, air waiters, & ground staff simply don't understand the economics involved in running and ensuring an airline stays profitable, and how to ensure that they have a pension plan when they retire.
It's amazing if u look at the income stmts of SW over the last ten years and the new kid on the block, jet blue, how much cash revenue they generate......They actually bank/invest that cash for rainy days like when 9-11 happened and/or fuel prices go through the roof. At the other airlines, the employees under the stewardship of the "get it while u can unions" start plotting how they can get a huge piece of the pie over the nxt contract period, based on the most recent income and cash flow.
The morons running the unions at these faltering legends, herd the new employees into membership and blindly get them to wring every last dollar out of the revenues when the airlines have been profitable for a few quaters, and the new contract is up.
U wonder who's laughing now, the Southwest captain who gets about $150k a year plus profit bonuses, sure retirement benefits, or the united captain who made about 300K for about a year and a half starting around 2001,, and goes to sleep wondering if his airline will even exist next year, let alone his pension.
Sometimes mgmt sucks, but most unions let employees down even more, Unions need economists and financial investors to be heading them, not die hard morons, otherwise, they do more harm than good.
It's amazing if u look at the income stmts of SW over the last ten years and the new kid on the block, jet blue, how much cash revenue they generate......They actually bank/invest that cash for rainy days like when 9-11 happened and/or fuel prices go through the roof. At the other airlines, the employees under the stewardship of the "get it while u can unions" start plotting how they can get a huge piece of the pie over the nxt contract period, based on the most recent income and cash flow.
The morons running the unions at these faltering legends, herd the new employees into membership and blindly get them to wring every last dollar out of the revenues when the airlines have been profitable for a few quaters, and the new contract is up.
U wonder who's laughing now, the Southwest captain who gets about $150k a year plus profit bonuses, sure retirement benefits, or the united captain who made about 300K for about a year and a half starting around 2001,, and goes to sleep wondering if his airline will even exist next year, let alone his pension.
Sometimes mgmt sucks, but most unions let employees down even more, Unions need economists and financial investors to be heading them, not die hard morons, otherwise, they do more harm than good.
Just call me Rotty
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rotty's Bar and Grill (@RJAF) Shinshu JP
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) will send a letter to some 3,500 retired pilots informing them of its inability to make their October pension payments, Delta lawyer Marshall Huebner said in a hearing on Thursday.
The letters saying there is a good chance the October payments will not go out will only be sent to pilots above a certain salary level, Huebner said during the hearing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan.
Source URL: http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsAr...S-DELTA-DC.XML
So soon...
The letters saying there is a good chance the October payments will not go out will only be sent to pilots above a certain salary level, Huebner said during the hearing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan.
Source URL: http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsAr...S-DELTA-DC.XML
So soon...
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: West
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lartington said: the guy said it was $350,000
I don't doubt what your sim instructor said. However, check out the pay rates for yourself here:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/
No US airline has ever paid a MD-11 Captain a standard salary of $350,000.
I don't doubt what your sim instructor said. However, check out the pay rates for yourself here:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/
No US airline has ever paid a MD-11 Captain a standard salary of $350,000.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Robin Hood country.
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The quoted $350k does need putting into proper context. The senior dozen where I work are even today capable of bringing in that kind of paycheck - they do so by selling back all vacation, bidding high duty trip lines and hoovering up overtime like pigs at a trough. The biggest pull last year was $370K with no life in which to spend it because the flight deck becomes home. Only the very, very senior though are able to compete in this competition. http://www.airlinepilotpay.com would appear to be accurate.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Robin Hood country.
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAXboy : ref exceeding hours. Wrong actually. Pay is based on assignments, legalities upon hours flown. The two can differ by almost 2:1. Union contracts are both complex and wonderful things. You're making common sense assumptions. Don't.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
These folks might be the lucky ones if they find other work before the market is flooded when and if NW or DL goes under. I've seen it happen before, we are strapped to the mast like Odysseus by the seniority system as the ship sinks. Why did I listen to that damn airline siren song in the first place <g>.
________________________________________
BLOOMINGTON, Minn. More pilots are being furloughed by Northwest Airlines, which filed for Chapter Eleven bankruptcy yesterday.
The Air Line Pilots Association says Northwest told the union that it is reducing flying levels, and 400 more pilots will be put on furlough over the next eight months.
That's in addition to the 500 Northwest pilots already on furlough.
A Northwest spokesman confirmed the furloughs, but had no further comment.
http://www.wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=3857644
________________________________________
BLOOMINGTON, Minn. More pilots are being furloughed by Northwest Airlines, which filed for Chapter Eleven bankruptcy yesterday.
The Air Line Pilots Association says Northwest told the union that it is reducing flying levels, and 400 more pilots will be put on furlough over the next eight months.
That's in addition to the 500 Northwest pilots already on furlough.
A Northwest spokesman confirmed the furloughs, but had no further comment.
http://www.wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=3857644
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
protection from creditors
I'm no legal specialist for Europe, but I'm pretty sure that the "chapter 11" also exists throughout Europe. Before you go belly up, you can walk to the judge, who will decide if it's worth for the creditors to keep the company running on a limited time and power base, or if they make more money if you pull the plug now.
If you destroy a company you wont necessarily get more of your money back.
At least in Switzerland, that's for sure, we have this paragraph. And western legal systems are all pretty much the same. US is just more famous/infamous since companies are willing to go under protection sooner. This has historical reasons, and in the US you wont be blamed your whole life if you went bankrupt once (in contrast to "the old world").
Dani
If you destroy a company you wont necessarily get more of your money back.
At least in Switzerland, that's for sure, we have this paragraph. And western legal systems are all pretty much the same. US is just more famous/infamous since companies are willing to go under protection sooner. This has historical reasons, and in the US you wont be blamed your whole life if you went bankrupt once (in contrast to "the old world").
Dani
RRamjet and None attempted to enlighten some apparently educated people who still don't quite grasp some simple concepts.
Southwest pilots are about the highest-paid 737 pilots in the world. How are they low cost?
Southwest is one of the most heavily-unionized airlines in the world, therefore, to repeat the mindless mantra echoed by the idiot writers in our business and general media, unions are the problem? This makes no sense, not at all.....
Could Productivity be the key? For the hundredth time on Pprune, Southwest created their routes on a classic, linear structure: city to city to city...They are not Hub-Slaves. Hubs were never designed for high productivity-but they were supported by very high business ticket fare, and hubd also feed traffic to Euro and Pacific routes. Is that now clear? Now JetBlue and Airtran (formerly ValueJet) use hubs, but some of the initial ValueJet captains were Eastern scabs, and their monthly pay was less than that of many delivery truck drivers, plus, no sick leave, vacation or retirement pay. Hard to believe, isn't it? At a party in an Atlanta suburb, a major airline pilot overheard one of their ValueJet mgmt. guys bragging about how much they were, eh...shafting... their pilots (pardon the indelicate language, ladies). Scabs don't care how you pay or treat them. A former Captain there, who joined after leaving the USAF, calls Valuejet "Ghettojet". I can put you in contact with him.
At a traditional, classic hub-and-spoke airline, some crew flying narrowbody jets fly on many typical days through a 7-10 hour duty period. With many short legs connected to hubs, the block time for a day with only 3 legs might = about 4.5-5.5 hours. This is your pay for that day.
But here is the catch: although upper mgmt. constantly whines and moans about needing more productivity, their Trip Planning Staff give us some days (others are grueling: working 12-13 hours to fly block/pay credit worth maybe 6-8 hours, then you are quite tired, even in good weather: and we have no automation
Our minimum layover time is only 10 hours and 15 minutes-this includes post flight, preflight and time to and from the hotel after an exhausting day, maybe with a pay credit equal to 7.5 hours, flying 5-7 legs...) that only have 3 legs to fly, and block time may be only about 4.5 hours. The PILOTS did NOT design our own trips-these are created by Flt Ops Trip Planning people, whatever their titles, using computers which should rival capabilities of those on Star Trek, the Next Generation! These trips are designed for the lowest operating cost-but how do they QUANTIFTY productivity, and input this factor to the HAL 9000 computer?
If you still don't believe this and have the nerve to e-mail me, I'll send you exact data from various trip pairings which will illustrate how many legs and long consecutive duty periods (without scheduled rest anywhere, anytime) are needed just for our productivity to exceed 6 hours pay in 1 day. Remember the mindless mantra: "unions' high costs are the problem...".
Why would our pilot union negotiators want narrowbody pilots, even when many crews are on time in good weather, sitting around between 2 and 4 hours in a hub, at least once each day? If we were allowed to work more block hours per day, we could have an extra day or two off per month, and some more junior (seniority) pilots might also be able to attend birthdays and Christmas with younger children. by contrast, many widebody pilots, who fly to Asia, sometimes have long strings of days off-but how long do their planes stay in their hour on most flights? Their trips rarely have trip or duty "rig" built in-they don't need them. Often, narrowbody A-319/320 and 757 pilots have no rig on many days-their payload/ range is much longer.
Our 4 hour 15 minute minimum pay, per day, was created to give company trip-planning staff the INCENTIVE to make us productive. Here is a secret: company negotiators always RESIST having a minimum daily pay guarantee of up to 5 hours, or more! But they claim that they want us to fly more block hours per day... But there is no proof. Is the contradiction here glaring? Have you a pair of cheap 'wayfarer' sunglasses with you? Remember the mindless mantra which the public consumes: "high union costs are the problem...".
This is why union negotiators (when not in Chapter 11) are allowed to build into their contracts trip and duty "rig" ratios. Without this pay INCENTIVE, the airlines would allow very sloppy scheduling and might allow narrowbody flightcrews to work only 2 medium or short legs per day-maybe more deadheads (riding in a passenger seat to re-position: very wasteful). We don't want to waste our time in a hub. Do you, when you can't work, but would like to? We can't fly on a laptop, at least not fly people or cargo. For airlines in Chapter 11, bankruptcy judges, with n prior knowledge of how flightcrew productivity is created, might throw out these rigs (I actually don't know), so despite a company's alleged demand for productivity, they try to tell the judge that rigs and minimum (i.e. 4.25 hours per day) are expensive for them! Don't forget the mindless mantra which the public (even many ignorant Ppruners) consume, on a daily basis: "high union costs are the problem...". Pardon this long length.
Southwest pilots are about the highest-paid 737 pilots in the world. How are they low cost?
Southwest is one of the most heavily-unionized airlines in the world, therefore, to repeat the mindless mantra echoed by the idiot writers in our business and general media, unions are the problem? This makes no sense, not at all.....
Could Productivity be the key? For the hundredth time on Pprune, Southwest created their routes on a classic, linear structure: city to city to city...They are not Hub-Slaves. Hubs were never designed for high productivity-but they were supported by very high business ticket fare, and hubd also feed traffic to Euro and Pacific routes. Is that now clear? Now JetBlue and Airtran (formerly ValueJet) use hubs, but some of the initial ValueJet captains were Eastern scabs, and their monthly pay was less than that of many delivery truck drivers, plus, no sick leave, vacation or retirement pay. Hard to believe, isn't it? At a party in an Atlanta suburb, a major airline pilot overheard one of their ValueJet mgmt. guys bragging about how much they were, eh...shafting... their pilots (pardon the indelicate language, ladies). Scabs don't care how you pay or treat them. A former Captain there, who joined after leaving the USAF, calls Valuejet "Ghettojet". I can put you in contact with him.
At a traditional, classic hub-and-spoke airline, some crew flying narrowbody jets fly on many typical days through a 7-10 hour duty period. With many short legs connected to hubs, the block time for a day with only 3 legs might = about 4.5-5.5 hours. This is your pay for that day.
But here is the catch: although upper mgmt. constantly whines and moans about needing more productivity, their Trip Planning Staff give us some days (others are grueling: working 12-13 hours to fly block/pay credit worth maybe 6-8 hours, then you are quite tired, even in good weather: and we have no automation
Our minimum layover time is only 10 hours and 15 minutes-this includes post flight, preflight and time to and from the hotel after an exhausting day, maybe with a pay credit equal to 7.5 hours, flying 5-7 legs...) that only have 3 legs to fly, and block time may be only about 4.5 hours. The PILOTS did NOT design our own trips-these are created by Flt Ops Trip Planning people, whatever their titles, using computers which should rival capabilities of those on Star Trek, the Next Generation! These trips are designed for the lowest operating cost-but how do they QUANTIFTY productivity, and input this factor to the HAL 9000 computer?If you still don't believe this and have the nerve to e-mail me, I'll send you exact data from various trip pairings which will illustrate how many legs and long consecutive duty periods (without scheduled rest anywhere, anytime) are needed just for our productivity to exceed 6 hours pay in 1 day. Remember the mindless mantra: "unions' high costs are the problem...".
Why would our pilot union negotiators want narrowbody pilots, even when many crews are on time in good weather, sitting around between 2 and 4 hours in a hub, at least once each day? If we were allowed to work more block hours per day, we could have an extra day or two off per month, and some more junior (seniority) pilots might also be able to attend birthdays and Christmas with younger children. by contrast, many widebody pilots, who fly to Asia, sometimes have long strings of days off-but how long do their planes stay in their hour on most flights? Their trips rarely have trip or duty "rig" built in-they don't need them. Often, narrowbody A-319/320 and 757 pilots have no rig on many days-their payload/ range is much longer.
Our 4 hour 15 minute minimum pay, per day, was created to give company trip-planning staff the INCENTIVE to make us productive. Here is a secret: company negotiators always RESIST having a minimum daily pay guarantee of up to 5 hours, or more! But they claim that they want us to fly more block hours per day... But there is no proof. Is the contradiction here glaring? Have you a pair of cheap 'wayfarer' sunglasses with you? Remember the mindless mantra which the public consumes: "high union costs are the problem...".
This is why union negotiators (when not in Chapter 11) are allowed to build into their contracts trip and duty "rig" ratios. Without this pay INCENTIVE, the airlines would allow very sloppy scheduling and might allow narrowbody flightcrews to work only 2 medium or short legs per day-maybe more deadheads (riding in a passenger seat to re-position: very wasteful). We don't want to waste our time in a hub. Do you, when you can't work, but would like to? We can't fly on a laptop, at least not fly people or cargo. For airlines in Chapter 11, bankruptcy judges, with n prior knowledge of how flightcrew productivity is created, might throw out these rigs (I actually don't know), so despite a company's alleged demand for productivity, they try to tell the judge that rigs and minimum (i.e. 4.25 hours per day) are expensive for them! Don't forget the mindless mantra which the public (even many ignorant Ppruners) consume, on a daily basis: "high union costs are the problem...". Pardon this long length.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 16th Sep 2005 at 21:40.
My final monthly pay cheque after tax as a Captain for Air Europe Italy was about $6000 and that included expenses.
How long have you been with your company and roughly how long was the upgrade to Captain? (or usual Euro upgrade time if direct entry)
Thanks
Person Of Interest
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding Airbubba's last post...He is 100% correct...the junior guys who are furloughed at these airlines may want to start looking for other employers if they want to stay in the business...just think back to 89 when EAL and PAA dumped over 5,000 pilots on the market within a 10 month period in s. Fla...
You couldn't buy a job flying a C-402 to the islands in those days....
You couldn't buy a job flying a C-402 to the islands in those days....
Guest
Posts: n/a
Air Europe upgrade
for Whatsalizad:
I came in as a direct entry captain as most captains did. The Italians were very reluctant to promote their own kind from the right-hand seat. I retired a few years ago after reaching 60. If it had not been for the French many of us could have gone on to 65.
The salary figures I quoted for Delta was based on salaries two years ago. I would have thought that the present salaries have been reduced due to across the board salary concessions from the union. I really don't know. I see in the press that current pensioners may not get their pension this month. It is a really sad mess. I would have taken as much of my 401 out of the pension fund as soon as retired.
I came in as a direct entry captain as most captains did. The Italians were very reluctant to promote their own kind from the right-hand seat. I retired a few years ago after reaching 60. If it had not been for the French many of us could have gone on to 65.
The salary figures I quoted for Delta was based on salaries two years ago. I would have thought that the present salaries have been reduced due to across the board salary concessions from the union. I really don't know. I see in the press that current pensioners may not get their pension this month. It is a really sad mess. I would have taken as much of my 401 out of the pension fund as soon as retired.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Under a Log
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’ve seen it mentioned that the laws regarding Chapter11 protection are due for a major shake-up this October:
Does any one have any indication as to what the main changes might be and why they are being introduced?
Thanks
Does any one have any indication as to what the main changes might be and why they are being introduced?
Thanks
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
>>Delta and Northwest don’t get the antitrust immunity they seek as part of the sky team. If they file for chapter 11, resize and merge, they probably will get it……….IMHO, it is all part of a strategy.<<
You might be right, Continental has also frequently been named as a potential merger partner with Delta and Northwest.
More speculation from today's USA TODAY:
_______________________________
Could airlines merge?
By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY
Delta Air Lines (DAL) and Northwest Airlines (NWAC) entered bankruptcy court together this week, and few will be surprised if they emerge together — as a single combined carrier.
The twin Chapter 11 bankruptcy filings Wednesday night, almost simultaneous and in the same New York courthouse, are leading many industry experts to believe the carriers may be exploring a merger within bankruptcy protection.
"I wouldn't be at all surprised," Benchmark analyst Helane Becker said Thursday. "In the past, these two airlines have talked and they have very little route overlap."
JPMorgan Chase analyst Jamie Baker said his firm "already has coined the term 'Delta Orient,' " a play on Northwest's former brand name, Northwest Orient.
Atlanta-based Delta is concentrated in the East and launches more daily flights across the Atlantic than any other carrier. Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest is concentrated in the Midwest and has a strong route structure in Asia.
The minimal route overlap is considered an advantage with federal regulators.
Airlines proposing a major merger would have to convince government regulators that the combination would not significantly reduce competition, or that one or both of the airlines would fail without the merger.
Northwest declined comment when asked about a merger with Delta.
In a conference call Wednesday, Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said the timing and location of the filings was coincidental. He added he has long believed consolidation among airlines is likely.
Delta spokeswoman Chris Kelly said Delta "expects there will be more consolidation in the industry. Right now, Delta is focused on its own restructuring efforts."
The twin filings, outrageously high fuel prices and declining hope for financial relief from the government could spark a round of merger talks as the remaining big troubled airlines scramble for partners.
A judge today is expected to approve a merger between US Airways and America West Airlines.
Five big potential partners remain: United Airlines, Delta and Northwest, all of which are now in bankruptcy protection, as well as American Airlines and Continental Airlines.
A merger of No. 3 Delta and No. 4 Northwest would propel the combined airline to the front of the industry pack.
It would pass American and United and become the biggest airline in terms of revenue passenger miles, according to an analysis by Back Aviation Solutions.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztra...culation_x.htm
You might be right, Continental has also frequently been named as a potential merger partner with Delta and Northwest.
More speculation from today's USA TODAY:
_______________________________
Could airlines merge?
By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY
Delta Air Lines (DAL) and Northwest Airlines (NWAC) entered bankruptcy court together this week, and few will be surprised if they emerge together — as a single combined carrier.
The twin Chapter 11 bankruptcy filings Wednesday night, almost simultaneous and in the same New York courthouse, are leading many industry experts to believe the carriers may be exploring a merger within bankruptcy protection.
"I wouldn't be at all surprised," Benchmark analyst Helane Becker said Thursday. "In the past, these two airlines have talked and they have very little route overlap."
JPMorgan Chase analyst Jamie Baker said his firm "already has coined the term 'Delta Orient,' " a play on Northwest's former brand name, Northwest Orient.
Atlanta-based Delta is concentrated in the East and launches more daily flights across the Atlantic than any other carrier. Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest is concentrated in the Midwest and has a strong route structure in Asia.
The minimal route overlap is considered an advantage with federal regulators.
Airlines proposing a major merger would have to convince government regulators that the combination would not significantly reduce competition, or that one or both of the airlines would fail without the merger.
Northwest declined comment when asked about a merger with Delta.
In a conference call Wednesday, Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said the timing and location of the filings was coincidental. He added he has long believed consolidation among airlines is likely.
Delta spokeswoman Chris Kelly said Delta "expects there will be more consolidation in the industry. Right now, Delta is focused on its own restructuring efforts."
The twin filings, outrageously high fuel prices and declining hope for financial relief from the government could spark a round of merger talks as the remaining big troubled airlines scramble for partners.
A judge today is expected to approve a merger between US Airways and America West Airlines.
Five big potential partners remain: United Airlines, Delta and Northwest, all of which are now in bankruptcy protection, as well as American Airlines and Continental Airlines.
A merger of No. 3 Delta and No. 4 Northwest would propel the combined airline to the front of the industry pack.
It would pass American and United and become the biggest airline in terms of revenue passenger miles, according to an analysis by Back Aviation Solutions.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztra...culation_x.htm
Paxing All Over The World
XL5
OK, thanks for that. But it seems from subsequent postings, that folks might be very tired for achieving that number of legal flying hours? If someone regulaly gives up vacation days to work - can they be fit and ready for work?
Not trying to point fingers - trying to understand.
Pay is based on assignments, legalities upon hours flown. The two can differ by almost 2:1. Union contracts are both complex and wonderful things.
Not trying to point fingers - trying to understand.
Paxboy:
I had lunch with one of my old F/Os from my Part 121 days some 20 years ago just yesterday. He is a current DC-10 captain with NW in Chapter 11.
His first concen is his pension (retirement) benefits. Now that his company has gone "Chapter 11" it is quite possible that he could lose his pension completely after 20 years with NW.
Now then, I don't think that FARs have changed that much in the last 20 years. In those days the limits were 100 hours domestic or 120 hours international in a 30-day period. There was a further limitation that no more than 300 in 90 days could be flown. So there is no question of pilots flying above those limits.
If you do and the FAA find out, then the first retribution is against the pilot concerned which would be something like a $5000 fine and his licence would be pulled for 60 days. That would mean no income for the best part of 3 months.
The question was as to how those hours could be flown in a purely financially beneficial basis.
I did not have an annual salary. I was given a 50-hour monthly guarantee which meant that I was paid for 50 hours flying at a given rate whether I flew or not. Once I had made 50 hours then I started making money and 100 hours was a happy month for I went home with double salary and then couldn't fly again until I "dropped time".
Now the "legacy carriers" have wonderful union rules. For example, if your number is high enough, you could bid for a reserve line. This could mean that you are guaranteed 75 hours a month if you are prepared to be called out at short notice and then be paid at 2X normal rate.
If you want any finer details, contact LHR Rain who has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the 1926 Railway Labor Act and the workings of all US Carriers.
I had lunch with one of my old F/Os from my Part 121 days some 20 years ago just yesterday. He is a current DC-10 captain with NW in Chapter 11.
His first concen is his pension (retirement) benefits. Now that his company has gone "Chapter 11" it is quite possible that he could lose his pension completely after 20 years with NW.
Now then, I don't think that FARs have changed that much in the last 20 years. In those days the limits were 100 hours domestic or 120 hours international in a 30-day period. There was a further limitation that no more than 300 in 90 days could be flown. So there is no question of pilots flying above those limits.
If you do and the FAA find out, then the first retribution is against the pilot concerned which would be something like a $5000 fine and his licence would be pulled for 60 days. That would mean no income for the best part of 3 months.
The question was as to how those hours could be flown in a purely financially beneficial basis.
I did not have an annual salary. I was given a 50-hour monthly guarantee which meant that I was paid for 50 hours flying at a given rate whether I flew or not. Once I had made 50 hours then I started making money and 100 hours was a happy month for I went home with double salary and then couldn't fly again until I "dropped time".
Now the "legacy carriers" have wonderful union rules. For example, if your number is high enough, you could bid for a reserve line. This could mean that you are guaranteed 75 hours a month if you are prepared to be called out at short notice and then be paid at 2X normal rate.
If you want any finer details, contact LHR Rain who has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the 1926 Railway Labor Act and the workings of all US Carriers.
Last edited by JW411; 16th Sep 2005 at 18:36.
Delta's pilots, before Chapter 11, already gave up almost 50% of combined pay and benefits, according to a Delta FO, with whom we talked in Newark about a week ago. Is that not a major chunk?
Whether that includes cuts into future retirement, I have no idea.
Union pay is not the problem.
The problem now will be the bloated fees for over-priced bankruptcy attorneys and CPAs. United has paid about $10,000,000 per month for these jackals and sharks. Per month.
Whether that includes cuts into future retirement, I have no idea.
Union pay is not the problem.
The problem now will be the bloated fees for over-priced bankruptcy attorneys and CPAs. United has paid about $10,000,000 per month for these jackals and sharks. Per month.