Backtracking?
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Well Nonny, i think the Pilots in their 146's are a bit peculliar about their brakes.... something to do with Hot brakes ?? Possibly the one that was slowspediting had to use his or her brakes on landing a tad over regular? therefore was afraid to reheat them on an expedite B/T... and there fore having to wait before T/O so they cooled..?
It is just a senario... could be just .... Anything.
Pointer
Ehh False Capture... read rev. posting above that one... and i believe there is only one -800 isn't it? and no its not the Airbus...
It is just a senario... could be just .... Anything.
Pointer
Ehh False Capture... read rev. posting above that one... and i believe there is only one -800 isn't it? and no its not the Airbus...
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Good british design 146 brakes!
I must say that every time Lufthansa land they lock up their brakes and come to a standstill halfway down the runway (good on 10, not so good on 28) and still manage an expeditious backtrack 30 minutes later (in fact on two occasions, they have used so much power pulling onto the runway at 'C' that they have blown stairs away from a/c parked on stand 2/3 - but that's another story)
I appologise to all BA crews, I love you all
If it weren't for you my job would be too straight forward and boring
Pointer: just practice your rudder hardover recovery skills. Don't forget, not everyone builds aircraft like the Dutch or British (ones which last for years). Maybe when we get the Scarebus you can get a job with a posh airline flying big planes into city
I must say that every time Lufthansa land they lock up their brakes and come to a standstill halfway down the runway (good on 10, not so good on 28) and still manage an expeditious backtrack 30 minutes later (in fact on two occasions, they have used so much power pulling onto the runway at 'C' that they have blown stairs away from a/c parked on stand 2/3 - but that's another story)
I appologise to all BA crews, I love you all
If it weren't for you my job would be too straight forward and boring Pointer: just practice your rudder hardover recovery skills. Don't forget, not everyone builds aircraft like the Dutch or British (ones which last for years). Maybe when we get the Scarebus you can get a job with a posh airline flying big planes into city
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Sorry Nonny,
Am just sitting out my time until i get the call from Fragrant harbour. It will be some time before i get back to the City... then again you never know...
Having fun now with Globespan. and not to worry, the NG's have redesigned rudders
Pointer
Am just sitting out my time until i get the call from Fragrant harbour. It will be some time before i get back to the City... then again you never know...
Having fun now with Globespan. and not to worry, the NG's have redesigned rudders
Pointer
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Luftansa can do that when they have no pax 
, and dont they fly the smaller rj85 to city? not to worry there getting all out decent airplanes now anyway with swiss so i`m sure its all academic!.
Still love flying to city, i`ll be the one doing warp factor 9 on backtrack now and onto stand on two wheels, hope it helps
, shame us bhx lot don`t get to visit as much as the works gone up to edi.
HMS Lcy is still more fun than working for a living tho
we can always use our new tail arresting system to stop, ooppps we`ve done than already,
, and dont they fly the smaller rj85 to city? not to worry there getting all out decent airplanes now anyway with swiss so i`m sure its all academic!.Still love flying to city, i`ll be the one doing warp factor 9 on backtrack now and onto stand on two wheels, hope it helps
, shame us bhx lot don`t get to visit as much as the works gone up to edi.HMS Lcy is still more fun than working for a living tho
we can always use our new tail arresting system to stop, ooppps we`ve done than already,
Don't know if its between pilots/acft of the same airline. If however its between same aircraft but different airlines it might be explained by FOQA monitoring at one but not the other. The last thing you need is a call from the CP wanting to know why you were taxiing at 50 Kts.
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If you can land and depart on a clear runway at over 100 kts, why can't you taxi down it at 40 kts (as most airlines manage)?
Maybe this is a stupid question, I wait to be flamed, but surely you could justify this to the CP?
Maybe this is a stupid question, I wait to be flamed, but surely you could justify this to the CP?
the lunatic fringe
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I think coz pilots have shot off the end of the runway having got it badly wrong. Seen it done in the wet. Closed the airport, and he had to be pulled out the mud.
Or you boil the brakes, turn around, reject, now brakes not working, shoot off the other end.
Either way, Is it worth the 10 seconds saved?
Or you boil the brakes, turn around, reject, now brakes not working, shoot off the other end.
Either way, Is it worth the 10 seconds saved?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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As fmcg says, the monitoring system with which I am familiar DOES record 'excessive' taxi speeds, but in most airlines the 'inquisition' is conducted by a fellow pilot and providing the explanation is reasonable, ie back-tracking/expedite, there is not a problem. 38kts along the taxyway at LGW however..................
If you can land and depart on a clear runway at over 100 kts, why can't you taxi down it at 40 kts (as most airlines manage)?
30kts in a 747 looks very slow from outside.
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As I am sure any pilot will tell you, LCY is one of the more demanding airports to operate in/out of. The controllers are generally very good and helpful but I have been asked if 'I really needed to use all the runway' !! Also 'could I maintain 160kts to 4 miles' !!! Both of these scenarios show a fundamental lack of understanding of what is required from an aircraft performance point of view to operate at LCY particularly at max landing/takeoff weight. Maybe other aircraft types can achieve 160 to 4 but we cannot. If we are doing a max weight departure we are not going to go blasting off down the runway to backtrack for a split-arse turn at the end primarily because if we do have to reject the takeoff then you may well be recovering what is left of us from the dock. It all comes down to brake energy. There have been scenarios of crews that have rejected a takeoff, gone back for another go before the brake holdover time is achieved, had to reject again and disappeared of the end of runways far less restrictive than LCY. Landing at heathrow neither of those requests would be a problem. As I said in my experience of operating to LCY the controllers have been good, but a little mutual understanding from crews of what ATC are trying to achieve and form ATC of what the crews are trying to achieve I think would help all.
Spot on overeasy. LCY has the potential to be a most unforgiving airport if errors are made.
We too easily forget past problems:- slippery runway due to lack of grooves or blocked contaminated grooving, long landings with ‘excursions’ into the old turnround zones, and the operator who stopped on the concrete but was unable to exit as the nose wheel would have been on the grass.
Don’t reduce any of the margins, whether during taxi, take off, or approach. The desire to save time and hence the need for speed is a killer, don’t be tempted.
Do not takeoff downwind; apart from performance issues what about the noise limits? Similarly for reduced thrust, just because you can does not mean that it is always sensible to do so. Land within the designated distance and use brakes – there is only one setting until you are assured of stopping – maximum.
We too easily forget past problems:- slippery runway due to lack of grooves or blocked contaminated grooving, long landings with ‘excursions’ into the old turnround zones, and the operator who stopped on the concrete but was unable to exit as the nose wheel would have been on the grass.
Don’t reduce any of the margins, whether during taxi, take off, or approach. The desire to save time and hence the need for speed is a killer, don’t be tempted.
Do not takeoff downwind; apart from performance issues what about the noise limits? Similarly for reduced thrust, just because you can does not mean that it is always sensible to do so. Land within the designated distance and use brakes – there is only one setting until you are assured of stopping – maximum.
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Well if you safety consious people would read the threath correctly; Nonny did not want you to compromise your safety margin; but if you agree on the condition to "Expedite" you should be in a position to expedite and thus do so; if you can't live up to your "promise" then stay put and wait your turn, Accepting a conditional clearance and not wanting to follow the condition... that is compromising someone elses safety margin...
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Nonny, why not get together with the fleet manager on the RJ and get something sorted about your back track problem, I am sure that you must have some kind of ATC/customer meetings.
Isn’t the safety point here that crews should not make promises that could degrade safety? This in turn raises the question as to what ‘Expedite’ actually means; do ATC and crews have the same understanding. The only examples of ‘Expedite’ that I could find in CAP 413 relate to climb/descent which implies the best possible rate – a characteristic of aircraft performance and the safety environment. If this interpretation is applied to ground operations, then the main characteristic is crew judgement as to what is safe, to remain within aircraft limits and the ground situation; the latter depends on the airfield / runway. This line of thought suggest that requests to ‘Expedite’ at LCY either in the air, taxing, or during take off should be used with great caution, and possibly not at all as the human desire to help others often overcomes the self control required for safety.
The thread started, if I interpret it correctly, with an observation of differences in taxing speed; that alone should raise safety concerns especially at LCY. Care must be taken not to degrade the good safety record at a difficult airport either by hasty crew action or less thoughtful ATC requests.
“We all try to help everyone else to have our own accident.”
The thread started, if I interpret it correctly, with an observation of differences in taxing speed; that alone should raise safety concerns especially at LCY. Care must be taken not to degrade the good safety record at a difficult airport either by hasty crew action or less thoughtful ATC requests.
“We all try to help everyone else to have our own accident.”
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You should never be instructed to do any speed inside 6dme at LCY.
However, Overeasy, you say you were "asked" to maintain that speed. You were asked if you could - not instructed to do so. I don't know what you fly or who asked you, but some pilots DO 200kts until 5 miles of there own volition. I trust you said "no" and that was the end of the matter?
As for visits.... the number of visitors I have known by LCY operating pilots to Thames Radar either since we were at LHR tower or now at LTCC is NONE. Simple as that. The number of Fam flights we get offered is minimal (I went to MAN with VLM this year though after an offer - but VLM are the only airline to allow this)
Yes, the operators should meet ATC (Twr and Radar which are two seperate units) - anyone want to arrange a date?
The fact is of course that LCY is becoming busier and busier at the peak times. This means that there will be less LAM releases saving crews 45 track miles and more traffic orbitting at SPEAR and LYDD.
Despite what you may think, ATCOs do worry about safety, but we are also paid to shift as much traffic as possible for the airport authority. If you are asked to expedite then do so as fast as you can safely do. Every tower controller I know (and I got caught once) who offered an "are you ready immediate" or "expedite backtrack" has ended up with a go around.
We have always given extra spacing for DHC8Ds in or out depending on runway - BRT 146s should be given the same extra gap?
However, Overeasy, you say you were "asked" to maintain that speed. You were asked if you could - not instructed to do so. I don't know what you fly or who asked you, but some pilots DO 200kts until 5 miles of there own volition. I trust you said "no" and that was the end of the matter?
As for visits.... the number of visitors I have known by LCY operating pilots to Thames Radar either since we were at LHR tower or now at LTCC is NONE. Simple as that. The number of Fam flights we get offered is minimal (I went to MAN with VLM this year though after an offer - but VLM are the only airline to allow this)
Yes, the operators should meet ATC (Twr and Radar which are two seperate units) - anyone want to arrange a date?
The fact is of course that LCY is becoming busier and busier at the peak times. This means that there will be less LAM releases saving crews 45 track miles and more traffic orbitting at SPEAR and LYDD.
Despite what you may think, ATCOs do worry about safety, but we are also paid to shift as much traffic as possible for the airport authority. If you are asked to expedite then do so as fast as you can safely do. Every tower controller I know (and I got caught once) who offered an "are you ready immediate" or "expedite backtrack" has ended up with a go around.
We have always given extra spacing for DHC8Ds in or out depending on runway - BRT 146s should be given the same extra gap?
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Being a regular visitor, I've always been very impressed with ATC at LCY. Only very rarely have we been asked to do something we could not. Then we've either declined or offered what we could actually do. In the former case, no offence has ever been taken and in the latter, we were pleased to help.
Paxing All Over The World
Non-pilot and outsider speaking.
W-h-h-a-a-a-t???
The supplier (ATC) and their clients (carriers) do not meet? Do they not meet regularly or simply not meet at all? Any supplier/client relationship that I have seen in 27 years in commerce starts at the high level and, once the ground rules (no pun intended) are established, the folks that are going to work together day-to-day then meet regularly. if it is not possible for all of them to meet (in this case) then suitable representatives will do so. That would NOT just mean the Chief Pilot.
In my line of work, I regularly talk to the folks in the 'back office' and understand what constraints they operate under. Why I go to work at a new facility (I am freelance) then I need to meet the staff there and find out how I can fit in with their routine and encourage them to fit in with mine.
Meeting people over a comms link is not the best way to understand them. I worked in telecomms for many years and I know the limitations of audio and video conferencing and that is when you have people who can talk freely and not in structured phrases and in limited time whilst under pressure!!
Am I being overly simplistic here?
Yes, the operators should meet ATC (Twr and Radar which are two seperate units) - anyone want to arrange a date?
The supplier (ATC) and their clients (carriers) do not meet? Do they not meet regularly or simply not meet at all? Any supplier/client relationship that I have seen in 27 years in commerce starts at the high level and, once the ground rules (no pun intended) are established, the folks that are going to work together day-to-day then meet regularly. if it is not possible for all of them to meet (in this case) then suitable representatives will do so. That would NOT just mean the Chief Pilot.
In my line of work, I regularly talk to the folks in the 'back office' and understand what constraints they operate under. Why I go to work at a new facility (I am freelance) then I need to meet the staff there and find out how I can fit in with their routine and encourage them to fit in with mine.
Meeting people over a comms link is not the best way to understand them. I worked in telecomms for many years and I know the limitations of audio and video conferencing and that is when you have people who can talk freely and not in structured phrases and in limited time whilst under pressure!!
Am I being overly simplistic here?
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sligtly off topic but anyone got any comments on removal of ILS 28 over the next few weeks.... consequently ILS off the air...
Just a comment but could this not have ben done during the nice cavok windcalm days of the summer....
am a 14sick driver to lcy, but in regards to expeditious backtracking generally no problem.. but driving faster less time for checks or rushed checks, not just the time aspect but the concentration...
Just a comment but could this not have ben done during the nice cavok windcalm days of the summer....
am a 14sick driver to lcy, but in regards to expeditious backtracking generally no problem.. but driving faster less time for checks or rushed checks, not just the time aspect but the concentration...
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No comment on the removal of the 28 ILS with only a visual approach available (7km/1700 cloud minima) during the Autumnal thunderstorm months.
Get yr nominated diversion field ready......
Get yr nominated diversion field ready......