Daily Telegraph: 'Pilots 'under pressure to take risks'
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Quote: when you arrive at said airfield and discover a defect, either enroute or on the ground what happens? do you have a "call out" contract with a maintenace provider or do you make a "that al' be alright" phone call to main base?"
If its a call from main base just ask for a fax with authorization and the signature of duty management allowing you to return with a defect. One copy for yourself, one left on the ground with tech log annotation of such.
It concentrates the minds of those who would lay the blame else where.
Works for me.
If its a call from main base just ask for a fax with authorization and the signature of duty management allowing you to return with a defect. One copy for yourself, one left on the ground with tech log annotation of such.
It concentrates the minds of those who would lay the blame else where.
Works for me.
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David Learmount seems to me to try damn hard to get close to the truth but in so doing he is sometimes very wide of the mark. And herein lies the problem. It is highly frustrating for those who know what the real problems in the cockpit to hear them misrepresented - hence the angst on these pages.
I'll bet that David Learmount (thoroughly decent chap that he is) actually doesn't have the confidence of a single line captain.
If your concerns are genuine, and not just moans about cr@p management and pressures of the job (these, of course, exist in all walks of life) I'd think David would be only too glad to investigate, and if substantiated, publish. Especially if there are safety issues involved.
SSD
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when you arrive at said airfield and discover a defect, either enroute or on the ground what happens? do you have a "call out" contract with a maintenace provider or do you make a "that al' be alright" phone call to main base?
I wouldn't paint it as rosy as Wizofoz, cos it certainly ain't, but I would state for the record that on the line our crew will put safety before £££'s every time.
Whether the Board and bean counters would ever be so conscientious is a whole different thread...!!
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From some of the comments here supplied by so-called (but are they really...?) professional pilots, the commercial airline scene is fast becoming a very dangerous place, so we had all better just hide under the bed until the storm blows over.
Perhaps these few folks would be better served by noting Harry Truman's famous saying....'can't stand the heat, stay OUT of the kitchen'.
In nearly 40 years of professional flying, NO airline company has tried to force me personally into accepting an aircraft that was not safe...full stop.
OTOH, maybe I was just lucky...
Perhaps these few folks would be better served by noting Harry Truman's famous saying....'can't stand the heat, stay OUT of the kitchen'.
In nearly 40 years of professional flying, NO airline company has tried to force me personally into accepting an aircraft that was not safe...full stop.
OTOH, maybe I was just lucky...
why not confide, anonomously, in David Learmount or his equivalent?
I do not think the British public have much appetite for stories about potential air disasters. The subject is just too far removed from their psyche at the present time to encourage a dialogue between the our profession and the press. Given a couple of hull losses over the British Isles the topic would certainly sell papers and more pilots might come forward.
The Great British Public are in love with cheap flights and I think their appetite for risk is quite high. I.e. even if there were a couple of hull losses in Britain people would still fly.
Today the Daily Mail picked up on the topic and invited readers comments:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1788
However, it would seem that no readers actually commented. This supports my argument.
Shaggy Sheep Driver, pilots concerns are genuine but their problems are buried deep in a highly complex industry. To more accurately report the problem David Learmount and the like would have to either fly the line for a couple of months or talk, in depth, to a number of line Captains.
Either case is unlikely.
In nearly 40 years of professional flying, NO airline company has tried to force me personally into accepting an aircraft that was not safe...full stop
They tried it on with me but it didn\'t work.
I dare say 40 years ago airlines just recruited pilots. Now, it seems to me, they want people they can manipulate.
Last edited by Wig Wag; 27th Aug 2005 at 08:54.
Wig Wag, ask yourself about advertising revenue from airline ads in newspapers, none of them anywhere in the world will run a story about airline safety unless its bleedin obvious. There is too much ad revenue at stake.
Sunfish, the Daily Telegraph ran this story yesterday which is pretty close to the mark:
Aircraft maintenance threat to safety
By Charles Starmer-Smith (Filed: 27/08/2005)
Engineers say that economy drives on European aircraft maintenance are putting passengers' lives at risk and contributing to an increasing number of "incidents".
"The financial wizards are running the show, to the detriment of safety," Robert Alway, a spokesman for the Association of Licensed Aircraft Engineers (ALAE), said.
"In a never-ending quest to save money, maintenance is being squeezed to the limit. Reports are showing that incidents [such as minor technical defaults] are on the increase: incidents are a short step away from accidents."
Last year 428 people died on commercial flights; this year more than 600 have already lost their lives. A recent study by Cranfield University found that maintenance error was the primary cause in five per cent of aircraft losses and a contributory cause in about 17 per cent. The Association represents around 2,000 airline engineers, based mainly in Europe.
"Some engineers have complained of being coerced into overlooking faults and releasing an aircraft back into service against their wishes, after being threatened with losing their job," Mr Alway said.
'Sign it or I will get someone else to' is more common than most industry observers would like to admit," he added.
It is legal for an aircraft to depart with minor faults as long as they remain within the Minimum Equipment List (which states which faults can go unserviced and for how long), but Mr Alway argues that the lists of problems are getting longer.
"This could mean that in an emergency the pilots are put under more stress because one system or more is not available," he added.
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), the UK's independent aviation regulator, said that he had seen no evidence of any UK airlines cutting corners on maintenance or safety.
"The UK has one of the best airline safety records in the world and the legal requirements on maintenance and safety are very stringent," he said.
"We complete regular audits, monitoring and spot checks to ensure that all UK airlines meet a recognised safety management process. We have seen no reduction in standards and safety remains the number one priority."
Last week, Telegraph Travel reported that some pilots have voiced concerns that economic pressures are contributing to a rising number of accidents.
On Wednesday, more than 40 people died when a Tans Airline 737 crashed into the Amazonian jungle on an internal flight in Peru - the third serious airline accident in the past two weeks.
The cause of the crash is not yet clear. Investigators were this week examining the safety records of Helios Airways, based in Cyprus, after a 737 hit a hillside near Athens on August 14, killing all 121 passengers. The Colombian government has halted flights by West Caribbean Airways following the deaths of 160 people when another 737 crashed in Venezuela on August 16.
The European Commission announced last week that it was considering publishing a blacklist of airlines and aircraft subject to bans or restrictions in any of the EU's 25 member states.
However, Mr Alway said that such a list would be of little help to passengers. "If passengers did react to a safety record when making the decision over who to fly with, then unfortunately that would indicate that it is too late and innocent people have already suffered."
He added that most air travellers will remain unaware of the standards of the airline's safety and maintenance checks.
"The average passenger is oblivious to an ever-growing list of defects, such as delayed engine maintenance or ignored corrosion," he said.
Aircraft maintenance threat to safety
By Charles Starmer-Smith (Filed: 27/08/2005)
Engineers say that economy drives on European aircraft maintenance are putting passengers' lives at risk and contributing to an increasing number of "incidents".
"The financial wizards are running the show, to the detriment of safety," Robert Alway, a spokesman for the Association of Licensed Aircraft Engineers (ALAE), said.
"In a never-ending quest to save money, maintenance is being squeezed to the limit. Reports are showing that incidents [such as minor technical defaults] are on the increase: incidents are a short step away from accidents."
Last year 428 people died on commercial flights; this year more than 600 have already lost their lives. A recent study by Cranfield University found that maintenance error was the primary cause in five per cent of aircraft losses and a contributory cause in about 17 per cent. The Association represents around 2,000 airline engineers, based mainly in Europe.
"Some engineers have complained of being coerced into overlooking faults and releasing an aircraft back into service against their wishes, after being threatened with losing their job," Mr Alway said.
'Sign it or I will get someone else to' is more common than most industry observers would like to admit," he added.
It is legal for an aircraft to depart with minor faults as long as they remain within the Minimum Equipment List (which states which faults can go unserviced and for how long), but Mr Alway argues that the lists of problems are getting longer.
"This could mean that in an emergency the pilots are put under more stress because one system or more is not available," he added.
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), the UK's independent aviation regulator, said that he had seen no evidence of any UK airlines cutting corners on maintenance or safety.
"The UK has one of the best airline safety records in the world and the legal requirements on maintenance and safety are very stringent," he said.
"We complete regular audits, monitoring and spot checks to ensure that all UK airlines meet a recognised safety management process. We have seen no reduction in standards and safety remains the number one priority."
Last week, Telegraph Travel reported that some pilots have voiced concerns that economic pressures are contributing to a rising number of accidents.
On Wednesday, more than 40 people died when a Tans Airline 737 crashed into the Amazonian jungle on an internal flight in Peru - the third serious airline accident in the past two weeks.
The cause of the crash is not yet clear. Investigators were this week examining the safety records of Helios Airways, based in Cyprus, after a 737 hit a hillside near Athens on August 14, killing all 121 passengers. The Colombian government has halted flights by West Caribbean Airways following the deaths of 160 people when another 737 crashed in Venezuela on August 16.
The European Commission announced last week that it was considering publishing a blacklist of airlines and aircraft subject to bans or restrictions in any of the EU's 25 member states.
However, Mr Alway said that such a list would be of little help to passengers. "If passengers did react to a safety record when making the decision over who to fly with, then unfortunately that would indicate that it is too late and innocent people have already suffered."
He added that most air travellers will remain unaware of the standards of the airline's safety and maintenance checks.
"The average passenger is oblivious to an ever-growing list of defects, such as delayed engine maintenance or ignored corrosion," he said.
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surely these scrimping lo-co managers must also appreciate that one crash would sound a death knell for their airline? The papers can re-print their "I told You so" stories from months before and the assorted CAA audit failures would be trotted out well before any official accident inquiry. It would be like Pan-Am or AirTrans all over again. (Pan-Am was really done in by Lockerbie, but same idea that the airline was dodgy/a target).
So I would have thought that in chasing the pennies the managers/board would also be aware of how instantly the bookings would disappear if there were a crash?!!
So I would have thought that in chasing the pennies the managers/board would also be aware of how instantly the bookings would disappear if there were a crash?!!
ILS27Left: You spelled manager(s) with a capital M. Whether it is grammatically correct has nothing to do with my point.
I don't know about "over there", but in the US these days, few pilots would consider using a capital M in the word 'manager'.
If you can exclude the extra fuel costs required now by our "friends" at OPEC
, who had their oil fields defended by the men (many of whom risked or gave their lives) from several nations during Desert Storm, and starting with 1983, the US airlines have been through the deregulation which you guys are now experiencing.
I don't know about "over there", but in the US these days, few pilots would consider using a capital M in the word 'manager'.
If you can exclude the extra fuel costs required now by our "friends" at OPEC
, who had their oil fields defended by the men (many of whom risked or gave their lives) from several nations during Desert Storm, and starting with 1983, the US airlines have been through the deregulation which you guys are now experiencing.
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For what its worth; this occured a few weeks ago.
Called off stanby to operate an evening flight to AMS. Flight already two hours late due an aircraft AOG in BCN! replacement Aircraft arrived on the ramp from the hangar. Pax baorded ASAP while we waited for the FO, (lives an hour away) While chatting to the pax and explaining the delay, the CB for the battery charger tripped with a loud click. Reset it once and out it popped again. Called Ops and told them we needed a new A/C. When I told them why they simply told me they would call me back soon.
In case you think I was expecting them to ask me to go with the fault, I wasn't and nor did they ask me when they called to tell me that an aircraft would be available in 40 mins from another inbound. No hassle, no pressure, no questions and no phone call a few days later from anyone else come to that! Do it by the book every time and that becomes the norm. If you are getting undue and unwarranted pressure from above to accept the unacceptable, walk the walk, don't sit here and talk the talk.
You allow the pressure to get to you as a Captain then you should be doing some other job.
Called off stanby to operate an evening flight to AMS. Flight already two hours late due an aircraft AOG in BCN! replacement Aircraft arrived on the ramp from the hangar. Pax baorded ASAP while we waited for the FO, (lives an hour away) While chatting to the pax and explaining the delay, the CB for the battery charger tripped with a loud click. Reset it once and out it popped again. Called Ops and told them we needed a new A/C. When I told them why they simply told me they would call me back soon.
In case you think I was expecting them to ask me to go with the fault, I wasn't and nor did they ask me when they called to tell me that an aircraft would be available in 40 mins from another inbound. No hassle, no pressure, no questions and no phone call a few days later from anyone else come to that! Do it by the book every time and that becomes the norm. If you are getting undue and unwarranted pressure from above to accept the unacceptable, walk the walk, don't sit here and talk the talk.
You allow the pressure to get to you as a Captain then you should be doing some other job.
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And the point of your post is?
What happened to maintenance intervention in your story?
My problem with posts like yours is this;
I work hard for 15 years, make into left hand seat, family settled, kids at school, everyone happy except for the small matter of my company having a slightly different moral approach and applying certain subtle pressures.
Now following your logic rubik I am supposed to pack everything and start again somewhere else.
You think the company will change its way because I am gone?
You think there aren't thousands waiting to get that seat?
It would make more sense for people like you to keep quiet.
That way those who are fighting back in their own way might have a chance of succeeding.
What happened to maintenance intervention in your story?
My problem with posts like yours is this;
I work hard for 15 years, make into left hand seat, family settled, kids at school, everyone happy except for the small matter of my company having a slightly different moral approach and applying certain subtle pressures.
Now following your logic rubik I am supposed to pack everything and start again somewhere else.
You think the company will change its way because I am gone?
You think there aren't thousands waiting to get that seat?
It would make more sense for people like you to keep quiet.
That way those who are fighting back in their own way might have a chance of succeeding.
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I'm saying that in my experience, there are no differing moral attitudes nor subtle or even blatant pressures. We've had these discussions about safety and maintenance and the MEL for years and nothing has changed except the characters writing about them. We regularly get ignorant posters stating that Low cost airlines are unsafe, with absolutely no justifacation whatever. We hear of people being bullied, (what physically? Where are they?) of being pressured, (how?) and subtly leaned on (in what way?)
There may be some idiot rogue managers who comes out to the aircraft and shout but so what? Don't be pressured to do anything unsafe and there is the end of the discussion. Let him shout and rant and posture but to what effect? Are you seriously telling me that if the Ops Director or some such came to the cockpit of your U/S aircraft he could persuade you to fly it?
If you do then you are definitely in the wrong job!
There may be some idiot rogue managers who comes out to the aircraft and shout but so what? Don't be pressured to do anything unsafe and there is the end of the discussion. Let him shout and rant and posture but to what effect? Are you seriously telling me that if the Ops Director or some such came to the cockpit of your U/S aircraft he could persuade you to fly it?
If you do then you are definitely in the wrong job!
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Once again you miss the point purely because you have never witnessed such a situation.
I have personally witnessed many situations off pilots being given no choice but to leave a company. When a company wants you to go, they generally win. There is always something, no matter how small.
And yes I have also personally witnessed the director of flight ops come and take over a seat because of a "difficult captain".
Most say nothing out of fear of losing their job. If they then dare speak out, they have to put up with the likes of you. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it isn't going on.
I would however accept that most outsiders to such events cannot possibly understand how things have got so far.
You need to experience such companies to understand how and why?
What did happen to maintenance in your story?
I have personally witnessed many situations off pilots being given no choice but to leave a company. When a company wants you to go, they generally win. There is always something, no matter how small.
And yes I have also personally witnessed the director of flight ops come and take over a seat because of a "difficult captain".
Most say nothing out of fear of losing their job. If they then dare speak out, they have to put up with the likes of you. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it isn't going on.
I would however accept that most outsiders to such events cannot possibly understand how things have got so far.
You need to experience such companies to understand how and why?
What did happen to maintenance in your story?
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The aircraft went back to the hangar to have the a new battery charger and to have theTech Log entry cleared.
I admit it never happened to me nor to anyone I know in 26years of flying with 4 different airlines.
I admit it never happened to me nor to anyone I know in 26years of flying with 4 different airlines.
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Is this another it hasn't happened to me so it doesn't happen?
All I will say to stop some lines of thought immediately is
"it aint a loco"
All I will say to stop some lines of thought immediately is
"it aint a loco"
Last edited by yamaha; 31st Aug 2005 at 06:44.
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yamaha, which airline has a no delay bonus and how much is it? If you don't work for them then how can it be that you can't say who they are? I have never heard of this and nor anyone I have met so tell us please, enlighten us to the forward thinking outfit that pays it's pilots to be on time, won't you? Maybe I could work for them as I am seldom late!
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I take it Rubik you have read Harry Wragg's post.
I would also assume that you have read Spartacan's post.
I know you have read my posts.
The world is obviously much larger than just your enviroment.
I would prefer however to be in your enviroment but that's life.
How did you get through your medicals with such blinkered eyesight?
(If I have misunderstood your posts I do apologize for that remark).
I would also assume that you have read Spartacan's post.
I know you have read my posts.
The world is obviously much larger than just your enviroment.
I would prefer however to be in your enviroment but that's life.
How did you get through your medicals with such blinkered eyesight?
(If I have misunderstood your posts I do apologize for that remark).
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It's incorrect to target only lo-cost airlines in this debate.
In my experience, the pressure on pilots to operate against their better judgement occurs regardless of the type of operation.
More relevant is the management style. Certain managements (I won't say which, but be my guest in trying to guess a prime example) are medieval (medievil?) in their approach. This is unconnected to the type of operation. It's connected to the management culture and style (appalling lack of).
In my experience, the pressure on pilots to operate against their better judgement occurs regardless of the type of operation.
More relevant is the management style. Certain managements (I won't say which, but be my guest in trying to guess a prime example) are medieval (medievil?) in their approach. This is unconnected to the type of operation. It's connected to the management culture and style (appalling lack of).