Daily Telegraph: 'Pilots 'under pressure to take risks'
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Very simple! Where are we now?
We have basically 2 groups:
Group 1:
A) There is no pressure and safety is not affected.
Group 2:
A) There is pressure (direct or indirect) and safety is affected.
Now Group 1 is definitely not lying. I trust them and they speak accordingly to their direct working experience.
Otherwise they would be criminals.
IMPORTANT:
Group 1 is saying the truth.
Now:
This does not imply that Group 2 is automatically lying:
this simply means instead that somebody else "honestly" feels the pressure, and believes that this is affecting safety.
It is highly understandable that this second Group is under attack by Management (here).
Group 2 is certainly not lying:they are also saying the truth. Group 1 are simply not aware of this issue. Often Group 1 pilots do not work for the worst offenders.
Why Group 2 pilots shall be inventing these stories?
I am worried about the reaction of Group 1 against 2.
Fair enough.
The objective fact is that the vast majority of pilots belonging to Group 2 are actually working for LoCo carriers. Coincidence?
I think a clarification was needed: we still have too many here trying to confuse the viewers and they are doing an excellent job.
Group 1:
A) There is no pressure and safety is not affected.
Group 2:
A) There is pressure (direct or indirect) and safety is affected.
Now Group 1 is definitely not lying. I trust them and they speak accordingly to their direct working experience.
Otherwise they would be criminals.
IMPORTANT:
Group 1 is saying the truth.
Now:
This does not imply that Group 2 is automatically lying:
this simply means instead that somebody else "honestly" feels the pressure, and believes that this is affecting safety.
It is highly understandable that this second Group is under attack by Management (here).
Group 2 is certainly not lying:they are also saying the truth. Group 1 are simply not aware of this issue. Often Group 1 pilots do not work for the worst offenders.
Why Group 2 pilots shall be inventing these stories?
I am worried about the reaction of Group 1 against 2.
Fair enough.
The objective fact is that the vast majority of pilots belonging to Group 2 are actually working for LoCo carriers. Coincidence?
I think a clarification was needed: we still have too many here trying to confuse the viewers and they are doing an excellent job.
rubik101, with regard to my views you wrote:
>>Oh really? Pray tell where you got this jem from? Please supply your reference material.
<<
Sure, the reference is from a report by Icon Consulting (not a group of pilots) which the CAA commissioned.
The executive summary contains the following statement:
>>Captains are increasingly being required to make economic decisions, which is often counter to their traditional role of safely flying the aircraft. There is sometimes a dilemma between safety and economics: a Captain has the responsibility for the safety of a flight but may be blamed by management if he or she is thought to have taken a commercially detrimental decision. If a pilot succumbs to commercial pressure and as a result is involved in an incident, he cannot, in law, defend his position by saying that the company pressured him to take the actions that he did. Some pilots find this dilemma difficult on a day to day basis<<
You may download the full report at:
http://www.icon-consulting.com/study...s/reportv2.pdf
I suggest, that like me, you fully read the report. It would also aid this debate if you passed a copy to your airline management and posted their views here.
>>Oh really? Pray tell where you got this jem from? Please supply your reference material.
<<
Sure, the reference is from a report by Icon Consulting (not a group of pilots) which the CAA commissioned.
The executive summary contains the following statement:
>>Captains are increasingly being required to make economic decisions, which is often counter to their traditional role of safely flying the aircraft. There is sometimes a dilemma between safety and economics: a Captain has the responsibility for the safety of a flight but may be blamed by management if he or she is thought to have taken a commercially detrimental decision. If a pilot succumbs to commercial pressure and as a result is involved in an incident, he cannot, in law, defend his position by saying that the company pressured him to take the actions that he did. Some pilots find this dilemma difficult on a day to day basis<<
You may download the full report at:
http://www.icon-consulting.com/study...s/reportv2.pdf
I suggest, that like me, you fully read the report. It would also aid this debate if you passed a copy to your airline management and posted their views here.
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evidence?
>>Following the CAP371 most of what you say is
>>impossible to achieve.
Impossible to achieve 36 sectors in a week? What version of CAP371 do you use? Of course its possible, and the shorter the flights the busier the day.
Impossible to roster high duty hours for someone just before they go on holiday, and use the holiday to reduce their average? What management planet are you on? Everything is possible under CAP 371, as it is constructed like Swiss cheese.
>>Unrealstic turn-around times? If it is possible to turn an aircraft around in 20-25 minutes time
>>after time after time for months on end then when does it become unrealistic?
Of course its possible when all is going well, but what happens when the weather takes a turn for the worse, or a few snags appear. Thats when the pressure starts and mistakes may happen, especially with these rooky crews who are keen to impress management.
Besides, when do the crew get a break - and that goes for cabin as well as flight-deck. I have seen No1s who have not eaten for eight or more hours, because they have not had a chance. Are we working safe here, or do we regard them as merely trolly dollies? What happens when the No1 faints during an emergency?
Likewise myself, I have sometimes sat down on the fifth or sixth flight of the day, and realised that I have not had a moments rest in eight or nine hours. An HGV driver would have had three compusory rests in that time, with the threat of dismissal if he did not take them. But flying is so much easier than driving, we obviously don't need rest free from duties. Instead food is gulped down during the climb and descent, when management in their ivory tower wisdom say we should do nothing other than fly. (We don't all do long sectors.) All management are doing is trying to absolve themselves from blame when the inevitable TCAS incident occurs and recovery is hampered by food trays, but they refuse to address the problems of the real world. Little things like we need to eat and deficate occasionally. We are people not automotons.
Aviation is in a mess and management has their collective head in the sand. But when the inevitable happens, they will suddenly come to life and point fingers at everyone but themselves. I hope the CPS will take a different view - for nothing would give me greater pleasure than to look at our management through bars.
Kiwi
>>impossible to achieve.
Impossible to achieve 36 sectors in a week? What version of CAP371 do you use? Of course its possible, and the shorter the flights the busier the day.
Impossible to roster high duty hours for someone just before they go on holiday, and use the holiday to reduce their average? What management planet are you on? Everything is possible under CAP 371, as it is constructed like Swiss cheese.
>>Unrealstic turn-around times? If it is possible to turn an aircraft around in 20-25 minutes time
>>after time after time for months on end then when does it become unrealistic?
Of course its possible when all is going well, but what happens when the weather takes a turn for the worse, or a few snags appear. Thats when the pressure starts and mistakes may happen, especially with these rooky crews who are keen to impress management.
Besides, when do the crew get a break - and that goes for cabin as well as flight-deck. I have seen No1s who have not eaten for eight or more hours, because they have not had a chance. Are we working safe here, or do we regard them as merely trolly dollies? What happens when the No1 faints during an emergency?
Likewise myself, I have sometimes sat down on the fifth or sixth flight of the day, and realised that I have not had a moments rest in eight or nine hours. An HGV driver would have had three compusory rests in that time, with the threat of dismissal if he did not take them. But flying is so much easier than driving, we obviously don't need rest free from duties. Instead food is gulped down during the climb and descent, when management in their ivory tower wisdom say we should do nothing other than fly. (We don't all do long sectors.) All management are doing is trying to absolve themselves from blame when the inevitable TCAS incident occurs and recovery is hampered by food trays, but they refuse to address the problems of the real world. Little things like we need to eat and deficate occasionally. We are people not automotons.
Aviation is in a mess and management has their collective head in the sand. But when the inevitable happens, they will suddenly come to life and point fingers at everyone but themselves. I hope the CPS will take a different view - for nothing would give me greater pleasure than to look at our management through bars.
Kiwi
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Rest and breaks!
Rest and breaks
"One in four office workers in the UK don't take a lunch break away from their desks. Six out of ten leave their offices for 30 minutes or less. No wonder people get stressed at work.
It's worth pointing out to your employer that you are likely to be productive if you take a proper break. "
(Source: God and several scientists)
Official on breaks for pilots:
Source: The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004 (copyright)/Extract
One paragraph:
"Pattern of work
7. - (1) Where an employer intends to organise work according to a certain pattern he shall take into account the general principle of adapting work to the worker to the extent that is relevant to the objective of protecting workers' health and safety.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), in a case where an employer intends to organise work according to a certain pattern he shall -
(a) ensure that pattern affords the crew member adequate rest breaks, and
(b) take into account the need to ensure, where practicable, that pattern offers the crew member work, within the scope of his duties, that alleviates monotony or working at a pre-determined rate.
Provision of information
8. - (1) When requested to do so by the CAA, an employer shall provide the CAA with such information as it may specify relating to the working patterns of crew members in his employ.
(2) Any information which is generated by an employer relating to the working patterns of crew members shall be retained by the employer for a period of not less than two years"
Statutory Instruments printed from this website are printed under the superintendence and authority of the Controller of HMSO being the Queen's Printer of Acts of Parliament.
The legislation contained on this web site is subject to Crown Copyright protection. It may be reproduced free of charge provided that it is reproduced accurately and that the source and copyright status of the material is made evident to users.
Source: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040756.htm
"crew member" means a person employed to act as a member of the cabin crew or flight crew on board a civil aircraft by an undertaking established in the United Kingdom;
"One in four office workers in the UK don't take a lunch break away from their desks. Six out of ten leave their offices for 30 minutes or less. No wonder people get stressed at work.
It's worth pointing out to your employer that you are likely to be productive if you take a proper break. "
(Source: God and several scientists)
Official on breaks for pilots:
Source: The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004 (copyright)/Extract
One paragraph:
"Pattern of work
7. - (1) Where an employer intends to organise work according to a certain pattern he shall take into account the general principle of adapting work to the worker to the extent that is relevant to the objective of protecting workers' health and safety.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), in a case where an employer intends to organise work according to a certain pattern he shall -
(a) ensure that pattern affords the crew member adequate rest breaks, and
(b) take into account the need to ensure, where practicable, that pattern offers the crew member work, within the scope of his duties, that alleviates monotony or working at a pre-determined rate.
Provision of information
8. - (1) When requested to do so by the CAA, an employer shall provide the CAA with such information as it may specify relating to the working patterns of crew members in his employ.
(2) Any information which is generated by an employer relating to the working patterns of crew members shall be retained by the employer for a period of not less than two years"
Statutory Instruments printed from this website are printed under the superintendence and authority of the Controller of HMSO being the Queen's Printer of Acts of Parliament.
The legislation contained on this web site is subject to Crown Copyright protection. It may be reproduced free of charge provided that it is reproduced accurately and that the source and copyright status of the material is made evident to users.
Source: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040756.htm
"crew member" means a person employed to act as a member of the cabin crew or flight crew on board a civil aircraft by an undertaking established in the United Kingdom;
I call you back
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Faire Dincome said;
Unfortunately if you worked for the worst offenders you would be fired within a month.
Please enlighten us as to which airlines you refer.
Unfortunately if you worked for the worst offenders you would be fired within a month.
Please enlighten us as to which airlines you refer.
These people get their way through fear and their most potent weapon ( after one's need to stay in a job ) is the prohibitive cost of defending oneself in court.
You may be what you pretend to be or you may be a manger type trying to trap me. Either way I'm not about to subsidise the legal fraternity any further than I already do.
Can Britain/Ireland, Europe learn anything from over 20 years of airline deregulation in the US, or will staff over there repeat some of history's mistakes?
Maybe what happened here is still a secret, at least to those who were in Kindergarten back then.
By the way, one of our pilot union rep's had some very interesting comments to make about Ryanair's CEO, but don't know if he questioned safety. However, if a CEO bullys his staff, how can this not have a negative influence on safety?
Even if the comments about the methods to limit flight operation costs are accurate, then there are some quite baffling things going on there, and some are hard for me to believe. I suspect that some aspects of what happens "over there" was created over here.
Former US freight airline owner Connie Kalitta reportedly chased at least one pilot around a plane, and that is just one of the stories.
It was sometimes difficult for a DC-8 crew of three, plus a mechanic, to convince him that the elevator hydraulic pressure was inop.
Maybe what happened here is still a secret, at least to those who were in Kindergarten back then.
By the way, one of our pilot union rep's had some very interesting comments to make about Ryanair's CEO, but don't know if he questioned safety. However, if a CEO bullys his staff, how can this not have a negative influence on safety?
Even if the comments about the methods to limit flight operation costs are accurate, then there are some quite baffling things going on there, and some are hard for me to believe. I suspect that some aspects of what happens "over there" was created over here.
Former US freight airline owner Connie Kalitta reportedly chased at least one pilot around a plane, and that is just one of the stories.
It was sometimes difficult for a DC-8 crew of three, plus a mechanic, to convince him that the elevator hydraulic pressure was inop.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 12th Sep 2005 at 04:30.
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rubik101, JW411
Why bother writing all that garbage earlier, if your latest posts were:
What is your interest in this subject.
BUT, don't bother replying - I don't care!
You are obviously non pilots, therefore have no idea regarding all the valid posts above. With responses like above, my 3 year old could have replaced either of you!
Why bother writing all that garbage earlier, if your latest posts were:
I do not think I have ever read more hogwash in all my time on pprune than I have on this thread!
BUT, don't bother replying - I don't care!
You are obviously non pilots, therefore have no idea regarding all the valid posts above. With responses like above, my 3 year old could have replaced either of you!
