Air France crash at YYZ (Merged)
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Paxboy,
As a VC10 pilot, and as some on this site will know, the VC10 is basically a submarine with wings. Decel is not a problem with the extra weight (even with only two of the orginal 4 reversers that BOAC had). Not sure about the ability to withstand a crash better than modern day aircraft, because I can't remember a incident invoving one.
As for the crash, Well done to the Emerg services for getting every one off, where are the slides?? Are they automatic on an airbus? Forgive the question, but we have to put ours out manually. Also, and I will speculate, like most of you want to do, but this seems like a massive 'press-on-itus' incident. Why on earth would you land in that weather. Do they do 7root P stuff in france. Let me see, Thunderstorm = HEAVY RAIN, WINDSHEAR and generally not nice for the punters down the back. Yes well done to the crew for getting every one out alive, but this was avoidable. Don't for a minute think I am blaming a very Professional and experienced crew, but it seems that companies are asking a lot of crews.
On the fire fighting side, why risk a fireman, when you stand back and watch the piece of scrap burn out
As a VC10 pilot, and as some on this site will know, the VC10 is basically a submarine with wings. Decel is not a problem with the extra weight (even with only two of the orginal 4 reversers that BOAC had). Not sure about the ability to withstand a crash better than modern day aircraft, because I can't remember a incident invoving one.
As for the crash, Well done to the Emerg services for getting every one off, where are the slides?? Are they automatic on an airbus? Forgive the question, but we have to put ours out manually. Also, and I will speculate, like most of you want to do, but this seems like a massive 'press-on-itus' incident. Why on earth would you land in that weather. Do they do 7root P stuff in france. Let me see, Thunderstorm = HEAVY RAIN, WINDSHEAR and generally not nice for the punters down the back. Yes well done to the crew for getting every one out alive, but this was avoidable. Don't for a minute think I am blaming a very Professional and experienced crew, but it seems that companies are asking a lot of crews.
On the fire fighting side, why risk a fireman, when you stand back and watch the piece of scrap burn out
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On the subject of VC-10 crashworthiness, East African Airways had a similar accident at Addis (?) in the 70s. It went off the end after the nosewheel punctured on a jacking pad left on the runway. It too went in to a "donga" but a lot of the survivors were burnt to death when they got entangled in the barbed wire surrounding the airfield perimeter.
Lady Lexxington
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Sky news show an interwiew with a pax and he says he had no issues with the way the crew carried out their roles (in contrast to others) and how he will definitely be flying AF again.
I can't find a copy of the transcript I'm afraid.
Good man.
Well done to the crew, you guys did an amazing job to get everybody off so quickly and if reports of the captain checking the a/c and leaving last are true, then, sir I take my hat off to you. Chapeau!
I can't find a copy of the transcript I'm afraid.Good man.
Well done to the crew, you guys did an amazing job to get everybody off so quickly and if reports of the captain checking the a/c and leaving last are true, then, sir I take my hat off to you. Chapeau!
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Apologies if this URL has already been posted...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/National/
It reads as a balanced and objective narrative...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/National/
It reads as a balanced and objective narrative...
Bill Hepburn, a meteorologist with Environment Canada, said the leading edge of a heavy thunderstorm hit the airport just minutes before the crash.
Yesterday's accident bears at least a superficial resemblance to the 1993 crash of a smaller A320 Airbus in Warsaw. Because the pilots had been warned of microbursts, they landed at higher than usual speed, as recommended in the flight manual. However, the slippery conditions and gentle touchdown fooled the complex computer systems on the Airbus, with the result that it delayed deployment of the thrust reversers and spoilers.
A passenger interviewed on radio this morning said that the rain was so thick they could hardly breathe.
Rain that heavy indicates a downburst and I wonder what a sudden extra 20 or so knots of airspeed in ground effect would do, especially to something a slick as an A340. To begin with, it would delay touchdown although I don't have the math to determine just how much.
Lets just be very grateful that a go-around was not attempted as I don't see how anything would be able to fly out the other side of this downburst.
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OhForSure,
Don't crews, once the a/c is slowed or stopped, stow the spoilers so in the event of evacuation pax going thru the overwings aren't presented with another obstacle? Thats probably why you say they aren't up.
D2K
top marks for the crew with the evacuation
Don't crews, once the a/c is slowed or stopped, stow the spoilers so in the event of evacuation pax going thru the overwings aren't presented with another obstacle? Thats probably why you say they aren't up.
D2K
top marks for the crew with the evacuation
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but this seems like a massive 'press-on-itus' incident.
'Press-on-itus' is an operating method practised by pilots for generations and well known to Air Traffic Controllers. A classic case of 'press-on-itus', very similar to this accident, occurred in Doha, Qatar in the 70’s. A Royal Jordanian B727 made several attempts to land in a violent thunderstorm finally being caught in a micro burst on short final and literally hitting the runway at a descent rate of 4000 fpm (measured from the black box). After colliding with the Fire Section (yes) the crew did not hesitate to evacuate the aircraft. Forty passengers were killed and 14 crew survived. Vive la France!
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I, like everyone else, was hugely relieved to hear everyone got out safely.
However, I wish everyone would stop with the plaudits for the crew and captain.
Fact is, we have no idea yet why the captain opted for the ravine rather than the gate. It could have been completely unavoidable, or it could have been complete incompetence.
Everyone got out because the aircraft did not burn immediately and it remained upright and relatively in one piece.
Will we ever find out the truth on this accident, or will it be another classic Air Chance cover up like the last one.
However, I wish everyone would stop with the plaudits for the crew and captain.
Fact is, we have no idea yet why the captain opted for the ravine rather than the gate. It could have been completely unavoidable, or it could have been complete incompetence.
Everyone got out because the aircraft did not burn immediately and it remained upright and relatively in one piece.
Will we ever find out the truth on this accident, or will it be another classic Air Chance cover up like the last one.
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I'll add my "plaudits" for the crew and captain. I was in the area of the accident and saw the wreckage first hand. It is incredible that there were no casualties and regardless of WHY it happened, it was no doubt the crew of that aircraft that managed to get everyone out and to safety! Congratulations and well done!
Eight Gun Fighter
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Well AF is not investigating this accident. They are granted observer status. The TSB is investigating and they are a very professional group of experts.
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In the North
you wrote:
"I'll add my "plaudits" for the crew and captain. I was in the area of the accident and saw the wreckage first hand. It is incredible that there were no casualties and regardless of WHY it happened, it was no doubt the crew of that aircraft that managed to get everyone out and to safety! Congratulations and well done!"
How do you know ? How do you know the crew didn't run for it.
And being in the area qualifies you as an expert witness ??
If you were in a plane that had just crashed, would you just wait to get off, or would you do what we all would do and try and get out.
Ummm, tricky one that.
Do you want to address the points I made or just be a lemming and jump on the plaudits bandwagon ?
you wrote:
"I'll add my "plaudits" for the crew and captain. I was in the area of the accident and saw the wreckage first hand. It is incredible that there were no casualties and regardless of WHY it happened, it was no doubt the crew of that aircraft that managed to get everyone out and to safety! Congratulations and well done!"
How do you know ? How do you know the crew didn't run for it.
And being in the area qualifies you as an expert witness ??
If you were in a plane that had just crashed, would you just wait to get off, or would you do what we all would do and try and get out.
Ummm, tricky one that.
Do you want to address the points I made or just be a lemming and jump on the plaudits bandwagon ?
How do you know ? How do you know the crew didn't run for it.
Because the CEO of AF says that the copilot was the last one of the plane and he radioed a message before getting off the plane that he had checked the aircraft and that everyone was off.
I think the crew did a great job to get every one off safely. I do agree with you that we should hold back on how they got there, that is a job for the CTSB, Air France will have nothing to do with this investigation (please no semantics, you know what I mean). They don't have the same pull on the Canadian government than on the French one. And from the accounts of the pros in this forum, I think the general concensus is that the CTSB usually does a pretty good investigative job.
BTW, I'm not French, just living over here.
Last edited by admiral ackbar; 3rd Aug 2005 at 15:58.
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If it had gone onto 401, with 16 lanes of traffic in rush hour...
It is a natural feature and I agree that it certainly prevents an aircraft going on to Highway 401.
This ravine in nearly 80 feet deep and I thnk that it is ridiculous that such a hazard still exists at the end of such a major international airport runway.
Why have Transport Canada taken no steps in over 25 years to remove this hazard?
Why have Transport Canada taken no steps in over 25 years to remove this hazard?
I would think that since 24L is the new runway, some crush zone at the end could have been included. Ah yes, there's that cost thing again. 
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One of the conclusions to the Dept. of Transport report on the 1978 Air Canada DC-9 accident was - 'The overrun area of Runway 23L (24L) at Toronto was within accepted international standards. A ravine beyond the overrun left no additional margin for error and contributed to the high casualty rate.'
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It seems despite the pax, win lose or draw the crew did a heroic job.
Reminds me of a decades old study, and I test my memory, revealing that "over 80% of the fatalities on aircraft in this situtation were alive, fit and well when the aircraft came to rest" .... they sucumbed in the subsequent smoke and fire trying to get at their hand luggage etc .
In general terms their immediate behaviour post, was observed to be disconnected, as if the aircraft had arrived normally at the gate and it was time to collect the on board baggage out of the bins, find the magazines/books/duty free, put on apparel, call home on the mobile phone
and attempt to disembark normally.
Survivors noted that it took a very great deal of motivation by the crew to break the mindset.
Perhaps this acccident might motivate airlines to add an explicit announcement to the before TO and Landing briefs to the effect that in the event of a mishap, even if it appears that they are safe, they are nonetheless, to follow the explicit instructions of the crew until such time as they have evacuated the aircraft, as over 80% of those who do not, will perish.
How much in this case was good luck rather than good management in regard to the post impact fire.
Hats off to the Captain for his responsible actions and to the crew notwithstanding.
While it is not difficult to understand why some/many people took their on-board luggage (seriousness of the situation may not have been immediately apparent to everyone, general mindset that an extra 5 seconds to take the bag won't make a difference, cabin crew having many other other things to do than insisting that everyone leave all bags, etc.), it would be useful indeed if better procedures were in place to reduce the likelihood of pax taking baggage during an evac.
In general terms their immediate behaviour post, was observed to be disconnected, as if the aircraft had arrived normally at the gate and it was time to collect the on board baggage out of the bins, find the magazines/books/duty free, put on apparel, call home on the mobile phone
and attempt to disembark normally.Survivors noted that it took a very great deal of motivation by the crew to break the mindset.
Perhaps this acccident might motivate airlines to add an explicit announcement to the before TO and Landing briefs to the effect that in the event of a mishap, even if it appears that they are safe, they are nonetheless, to follow the explicit instructions of the crew until such time as they have evacuated the aircraft, as over 80% of those who do not, will perish.
How much in this case was good luck rather than good management in regard to the post impact fire.
Hats off to the Captain for his responsible actions and to the crew notwithstanding.
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Norodnik,
Admiral Ackbar has responded to most of your post as well as I could have, so I will simply state that I agree and leave it at that.
In regards to the remainder of your post:
"And being in the area qualifies you as an expert witness ??'
I actually never said that I considered myself an expert witness. I was speaking from the point of view of someone who witnessed first hand the distressing sight of that plane, as well as from an experienced cabin crew member with 15+ years of expertise. IF I were involved in a plane crash, I certainly would not simply 'wait to get off'. I would be doing what I believe the Air France crew were doing, which is using my training to clear the aircraft of passengers as quickly as possible in an effort to save as many as possible. The numbers don't lie. Everyone survived. I will go out on a limb here and say that a large part of that was due to the instructions and direction of the crew.
I don't argue with you that the facts will surface in time as to the WHY. However, I beg to differ with your statement of 'Everyone got out because the aircraft did not burn immediately and it remained upright and relatively in one piece.' It may well be that the plane was upright and relatively in one piece due to the actions of the pilots, I stand by my statement that everyone got out because of a crew doing the job they are trained for.
I will assume that having now addressed your comments, I am welcome to jump back on the plaudits bandwagon.
Admiral Ackbar has responded to most of your post as well as I could have, so I will simply state that I agree and leave it at that.
In regards to the remainder of your post:
"And being in the area qualifies you as an expert witness ??'
I actually never said that I considered myself an expert witness. I was speaking from the point of view of someone who witnessed first hand the distressing sight of that plane, as well as from an experienced cabin crew member with 15+ years of expertise. IF I were involved in a plane crash, I certainly would not simply 'wait to get off'. I would be doing what I believe the Air France crew were doing, which is using my training to clear the aircraft of passengers as quickly as possible in an effort to save as many as possible. The numbers don't lie. Everyone survived. I will go out on a limb here and say that a large part of that was due to the instructions and direction of the crew.
I don't argue with you that the facts will surface in time as to the WHY. However, I beg to differ with your statement of 'Everyone got out because the aircraft did not burn immediately and it remained upright and relatively in one piece.' It may well be that the plane was upright and relatively in one piece due to the actions of the pilots, I stand by my statement that everyone got out because of a crew doing the job they are trained for.
I will assume that having now addressed your comments, I am welcome to jump back on the plaudits bandwagon.
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I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the federal Canadian transport minister, Jean Lapierre, told reporters last night that he had been advised the pilot of AF358 landed long. (Personally, I think that, even if this was true, Lapierre should have kept his trap shut).
At the risk of being accused of fostering premature speculation, I have a question for A343 drivers. Rwy 24L at YYZ is 9000 ft long. Given the WX conditions and if one assumes that all systems (brakes, thrust reversers, spoilers, etc.) were in working order and no go-around was being attempted, could you say that it is at least highly likely that the pilot landed long or is it entirely possible that he ran out of room even if touchdown was at the beginning of the runway?
Rockhound
At the risk of being accused of fostering premature speculation, I have a question for A343 drivers. Rwy 24L at YYZ is 9000 ft long. Given the WX conditions and if one assumes that all systems (brakes, thrust reversers, spoilers, etc.) were in working order and no go-around was being attempted, could you say that it is at least highly likely that the pilot landed long or is it entirely possible that he ran out of room even if touchdown was at the beginning of the runway?
Rockhound
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Here's some good reporting from Yahoo!
sigh! 
The Airbus A-340's twin tail-mounted engines had just started to burn when Figiola arrived on the scene less than a minute after the crash.
Looking at the picture of the pax exiting the aircraft som slide, it does appear that the slide skirt/door bar is hanging from the bottom of the door, either it has not engaged properly or has failed on activation. Only an educated guess.
I must admit when I first saw the pictures emerge on the TV last night I thought the worst, but gradually the info came through that there were no casualties. Well done cabin crew for a timely and safe evacuation.
I must admit when I first saw the pictures emerge on the TV last night I thought the worst, but gradually the info came through that there were no casualties. Well done cabin crew for a timely and safe evacuation.
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We humans are strange creatures. In an extremely stressful situation like that, we tend to go into a state of shock. In that state, people do exactly what they planned to do when the aircraft came to a stop at the gate. Their subconcious takes over and does what it was prepared to do as the concious brain tends to shut down in such situations. That's part of the reason F/A's must scream their commands, not only for noise but to get the pax to "snap out of it".