Air France crash at YYZ (Merged)
Paxing All Over The World
Let's move the speculation onwards and away, until the report comes out in a couple of years time. WHAT IF ... the a/c involved in this had been an A380. Would going into the ravine have complicated matters somewhat? Perhaps an arrester bed, that keeps the a/c on the horizontal would help? (Having attempted to hijack this thread, stands back to await incoming)
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UK press have give this a couple of pages in their editions. While nearly all the paxs have praised the crew, one rather vocal pax has critisied the them...and amazingly felt that the oxygen masks should have dropped as the cabin was filling with smoke! Perhaps the press should check facts and not prints this Cr*p... lets "fuel" the fire with a bit more O2, and mix the O2 with the smoke filling the cabin for you to breath via the mask. Really shows little info is a dangerous thing!
BOAC
Retracting the spoilers prior to an emergency evacuation on the A340-300 is not part of any checklist or mandatory memory recall item. There are no over wing exits so pax shouldn’t end up being on the wing. Without pre-empting the official investigation, I would be very concerned if I were an investigator by the fact that the spoilers don’t appear to have been deployed, especially on a contaminated runway. That would be one of the first things I look at once the FDR and the CVR are decoded. Conversely once hydraulic pressure is lost to the spoiler servos, like most A330/340 flight controls they tend to go where gravity takes them, down.
Retracting the spoilers prior to an emergency evacuation on the A340-300 is not part of any checklist or mandatory memory recall item. There are no over wing exits so pax shouldn’t end up being on the wing. Without pre-empting the official investigation, I would be very concerned if I were an investigator by the fact that the spoilers don’t appear to have been deployed, especially on a contaminated runway. That would be one of the first things I look at once the FDR and the CVR are decoded. Conversely once hydraulic pressure is lost to the spoiler servos, like most A330/340 flight controls they tend to go where gravity takes them, down.
Just because the weather appeared to be "challenging" it does not necessarily follow that the decision to make an approach was incorrect - until all the FACTS are established it quite improper to make such assumptions.
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The lead investigator just ended his press briefing and mentioned the following:
- The airplane left the runway at 84 knots (*1).
- The airplane landed at 140 knots.
- 3 of the 4 reverse thrusters were functional.
- 4th reverse thrusters unknown.
- Captain in hospital bed with back pains and will not be interviewed today until cleared by medical team.
- Copilot will be interviewed today.
- Most engines are in "good" shape and were producing thrust.
- Several "journalists" asked several questions about the JBI (James Brake Index). He replied Canada uses a different index CxBI (???).
- Refused to mention the distanced used.
- Reverse thrusters only reduce landing distance by 5-10% (*2).
- Elsewhere, the president (!?) of Air France said that the plane had enough fuel for another airport.
(*1): That's fast !!
(*2): I guess he means on a dry runway.
- The airplane left the runway at 84 knots (*1).
- The airplane landed at 140 knots.
- 3 of the 4 reverse thrusters were functional.
- 4th reverse thrusters unknown.
- Captain in hospital bed with back pains and will not be interviewed today until cleared by medical team.
- Copilot will be interviewed today.
- Most engines are in "good" shape and were producing thrust.
- Several "journalists" asked several questions about the JBI (James Brake Index). He replied Canada uses a different index CxBI (???).
- Refused to mention the distanced used.
- Reverse thrusters only reduce landing distance by 5-10% (*2).
- Elsewhere, the president (!?) of Air France said that the plane had enough fuel for another airport.
(*1): That's fast !!
(*2): I guess he means on a dry runway.
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404 Titan:
Exactly what I was thinking about spoilers. For those of us unfamiliar with the type, could someone briefly describe the spoiler system on the 340-300 please? Is there a config warning if you attempt to land with spoilers not armed?
R1
Exactly what I was thinking about spoilers. For those of us unfamiliar with the type, could someone briefly describe the spoiler system on the 340-300 please? Is there a config warning if you attempt to land with spoilers not armed?
R1
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For what it's worth...
on this picture one can clearly see 3x2 tire-marks in the grass, leaving the runway...
If I'm correct, the A340 has left/center/right bogey with each two wheels, and double nose-wheel...
shouldn't there be 4x2 marks then? I guess that the width of the nose-gear is not similar to the center bogey?... thus we would need to see more tire-marks?
Or am I missing something here?...
on this picture one can clearly see 3x2 tire-marks in the grass, leaving the runway...
If I'm correct, the A340 has left/center/right bogey with each two wheels, and double nose-wheel...
shouldn't there be 4x2 marks then? I guess that the width of the nose-gear is not similar to the center bogey?... thus we would need to see more tire-marks?
Or am I missing something here?...
Last edited by 9gmax; 4th Aug 2005 at 15:08.
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- The airplane left the runway at 84 knots (*1).
(*1): That's fast !!
(*1): That's fast !!
Either a very late t/d or braking action ~ nil to give 84kts at the end
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On the 340 even when the spoilers are not armed (which would be clearly visible and almost not overseeable in a bright blue line in the landing checklist on the ECAM), they would still come out:
Partially if
- RA < 6 ft
- at least two symmetric thrust levers in rev, others in idle
- one MLG strut compressed
Fully if
- at least 2 thrust levers in reverse, others in idle and then one of the two following:
- OR wheel speed > 72kts
- OR RA < 6 ft and both MLG struts compressed
P77
Partially if
- RA < 6 ft
- at least two symmetric thrust levers in rev, others in idle
- one MLG strut compressed
Fully if
- at least 2 thrust levers in reverse, others in idle and then one of the two following:
- OR wheel speed > 72kts
- OR RA < 6 ft and both MLG struts compressed
P77
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- The airplane left the runway at 84 knots (*1).
- The airplane landed at 140 knots.
- The airplane landed at 140 knots.
It sure sounds like the spoiler position is unknown until the FDR data comes out.
On the earlier topic in this thread about the power outage, real or imagined, if there is a checklist item to shut down the cabin lighting, and IF they did so, my one flight on an A340 would lead me to believe that from the forward cabin, if engines spooled way down, it might seem to self loading cargo as if they flamed out.
That is a very quiet cabin! Even in flight it is quiet.
However, there would/should be some sound a moment later from the use of reverse - which no passengers, as far as I know, have reported hearing.
Though the photos sure seem to show deployed on at least one engine.
(Waiting on the FDR & CVR....)
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Thanks for the 340 info, 404.
JP4 - I guess I might well have used full reverse to a standstill in the same situation! Getting them 'stowed' might also not have been very high on my priority list either?
JP4 - I guess I might well have used full reverse to a standstill in the same situation! Getting them 'stowed' might also not have been very high on my priority list either?
Ranger One
Unlike for take-off, there is no aural warning triggered if the SPD BRK are not armed prior to landing. If the landing checklist is completed correctly, a blue reminder is written on the landing memo on the ECAM E/WD below 2000 ft AGL which should be picked up by the crew.
9gmax
The nose wheel bogie is about the same width as the centre bogie on an A340-300. I see no problem with the tracks in the grass. It is what I would expect to see with all the wheels in place on an A340-300.
BOAC
No problemo.
Unlike for take-off, there is no aural warning triggered if the SPD BRK are not armed prior to landing. If the landing checklist is completed correctly, a blue reminder is written on the landing memo on the ECAM E/WD below 2000 ft AGL which should be picked up by the crew.
9gmax
The nose wheel bogie is about the same width as the centre bogie on an A340-300. I see no problem with the tracks in the grass. It is what I would expect to see with all the wheels in place on an A340-300.
BOAC
No problemo.
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Just a note to Ou Trek dronkie going back a few posts.
The fatal VC-10 accident (only one that I can find) was to 5N-ABD of Nigeria Airways on 20th November 1969, when 87 were killed as the aircraft hit trees short of the runway at Lagos...
The fatal VC-10 accident (only one that I can find) was to 5N-ABD of Nigeria Airways on 20th November 1969, when 87 were killed as the aircraft hit trees short of the runway at Lagos...
In regard to the spoilers, I've gotten the idea that spoilers aren't as much a braking system as they are a lift spoiling system, i.e. keep the plane on the ground after it touches down. Sounds the landing was fine anyway.
This topic has been discussed here before I believe.
This topic has been discussed here before I believe.
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Interesting that, according to Aardvark2zz, the TSB lead investigator at the press briefing refused to divulge the runway distance used by AF358, even though his political master, the transport minister announced publicly, just hours after the accident, that he had been advised the pilot landed long.
Rockhound
Rockhound
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In regard to the spoilers, I've gotten the idea that spoilers aren't as much a braking system as they are a lift spoiling system, i.e. keep the plane on the ground after it touches down. Sounds the landing was fine anyway.
FakePilot
The spoilers are there to kill lift which in turn puts more weight on the wheels and in turn increases the effectiveness of the brakes. I don’t think anyone here has said that the drag produced by the spoilers is the main reason why they are deployed because it isn’t.
The spoilers are there to kill lift which in turn puts more weight on the wheels and in turn increases the effectiveness of the brakes. I don’t think anyone here has said that the drag produced by the spoilers is the main reason why they are deployed because it isn’t.
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From data from the TSB briefing this morning.
Doing some quick calculations we get a 0.7 m/s/s deceleration for AF358.
As a comparison a 747 gets 1.14 m/s/s deceleration on a wet runway (1.31 on dry).
That is a loss of 37% braking force beyond a "standard" wet runway.
Or, a loss of 47% braking force beyond a "standard" dry runway.
Losing 42% braking force is a lot !!!
Note: I assumed they touched down near the typical touch-down point.
Doing some quick calculations we get a 0.7 m/s/s deceleration for AF358.
As a comparison a 747 gets 1.14 m/s/s deceleration on a wet runway (1.31 on dry).
That is a loss of 37% braking force beyond a "standard" wet runway.
Or, a loss of 47% braking force beyond a "standard" dry runway.
Losing 42% braking force is a lot !!!
Note: I assumed they touched down near the typical touch-down point.
Last edited by aardvark2zz; 4th Aug 2005 at 17:27.
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Fakepilot:
Precisely correct, it's not a matter of 'keeping the aircraft on the ground' though. In plain language, it's a case of killing the lift which the wings are still producing during the high-speed initial rollout, and so allowing the weight of the aircraft to settle on the wheels - without spoilers the antiskid would activate as soon as you thought of applying the brakes and you would get very little initial braking action, until you slowed down enough that aerodynamic lift was no longer produced. During which time you are eating available runway at a preposterous rate, of course
What can happen if spoilers aren't deployed:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...99MA060&rpt=fi
(edited to make clear I'm not prejudging the present incident, just answering Fakepilots question!)
R1
Precisely correct, it's not a matter of 'keeping the aircraft on the ground' though. In plain language, it's a case of killing the lift which the wings are still producing during the high-speed initial rollout, and so allowing the weight of the aircraft to settle on the wheels - without spoilers the antiskid would activate as soon as you thought of applying the brakes and you would get very little initial braking action, until you slowed down enough that aerodynamic lift was no longer produced. During which time you are eating available runway at a preposterous rate, of course
What can happen if spoilers aren't deployed:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...99MA060&rpt=fi
(edited to make clear I'm not prejudging the present incident, just answering Fakepilots question!)
R1
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From The Times (London) online edtion:
Ravine may have saved flight from worse fate
THE 309 passsengers and crew of Air France Flight 358 may have survived the crash landing because of — not despite — the ravine at the end of the runway.........
For full story click here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...720252,00.html
Ravines, moats or other gullies around airports, anyone ?? Amazing.....
Ravine may have saved flight from worse fate
THE 309 passsengers and crew of Air France Flight 358 may have survived the crash landing because of — not despite — the ravine at the end of the runway.........
For full story click here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...720252,00.html
Ravines, moats or other gullies around airports, anyone ?? Amazing.....