Judas Balpa CC at EZY!
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Sorry, maybe I wasn´t clear:
It´s not about being to lazy to recruit new members.
It´s about not having any convincing BALPA facts/achievements to recruit members with.
Good night! [gotta take a nap, because I´m on "lates" (i.e. 9 am check in
) tomorrow.]
Bokkie
It´s not about being to lazy to recruit new members.
It´s about not having any convincing BALPA facts/achievements to recruit members with.
Good night! [gotta take a nap, because I´m on "lates" (i.e. 9 am check in
) tomorrow.] Bokkie
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Having calmed down a bit now and done some more research, I can see this was not an isolated occasion and "current cretinous management" sums it up rather well. Some of the other pilot managers (Base Captains) appear to have been appointed after just telephone calls were made, so it is quite amazing really that there was actually a face to face interview held at all.
Out of Synch. You are "Out of Touch" because some of us value integrity fairly high on our list of qualities for the pilots who are suposed to represent us and if this deceitful person did not have that integrity to make his intentions clear, then I am damned if he will represent me and therfore my resignation from Balpa. I ask you this question. Would you buy a used car from a man like that? No? Well niether would I!
Flaps One. You have lost the plot. The easyjet pilots have been royally shafted by the "cretinous management" with the conivance and cooperation of the Balpa CC. We are working harder than ever before and have had some of our leave taken away for good measure. If that wasn't bad enough, it now appears that you cannot even TRUST the members of the CC - because it seems they want to secretly GET INTO MANAGEMENT! For heavens sake can't you see what this looks like from the line pilots' perspective? Its a bloody joke, that's what it is! Only WE (the line pilots and former Balpa members) are on the receiving end of it and I for one do not find it funny.
Out of Synch. You are "Out of Touch" because some of us value integrity fairly high on our list of qualities for the pilots who are suposed to represent us and if this deceitful person did not have that integrity to make his intentions clear, then I am damned if he will represent me and therfore my resignation from Balpa. I ask you this question. Would you buy a used car from a man like that? No? Well niether would I!
Flaps One. You have lost the plot. The easyjet pilots have been royally shafted by the "cretinous management" with the conivance and cooperation of the Balpa CC. We are working harder than ever before and have had some of our leave taken away for good measure. If that wasn't bad enough, it now appears that you cannot even TRUST the members of the CC - because it seems they want to secretly GET INTO MANAGEMENT! For heavens sake can't you see what this looks like from the line pilots' perspective? Its a bloody joke, that's what it is! Only WE (the line pilots and former Balpa members) are on the receiving end of it and I for one do not find it funny.
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GSL
You are truly beyond belief!
Your 'research' is wrong.......but I doubt that will bother you.
No CC members have taken, or been offered, management positions...........but that won't bother you either I guess.
If you think we are working harder than ever before.......you haven't been here long enough!
If you had been present at any CC meeting with management over the last 2 years, or if you had read any of the minutes of meetings, you would know that what you say is complete and utter bunkum........but I suppose that won't bother you either.
Resign if you wish, but you are about to leave yourself very exposed against..........what did you call it?...........a 'cretinous mangement' (....that has no CC members by the way!).
You are truly beyond belief!
Your 'research' is wrong.......but I doubt that will bother you.
No CC members have taken, or been offered, management positions...........but that won't bother you either I guess.
If you think we are working harder than ever before.......you haven't been here long enough!
If you had been present at any CC meeting with management over the last 2 years, or if you had read any of the minutes of meetings, you would know that what you say is complete and utter bunkum........but I suppose that won't bother you either.
Resign if you wish, but you are about to leave yourself very exposed against..........what did you call it?...........a 'cretinous mangement' (....that has no CC members by the way!).
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GSL... I dont believe it is me who is out of touch.
Everyone marks a CC (or the mighty BALPA machine) purely on what they gain from management.
Whilst this may have been true in the past, in legacy carriers, with high percentage union membership, it no longer applies to the LCC model.
With ...management permananetly in 'cut-back' mode, your CC spends the majority of time fire-fighting, and trying to stop a backward slide!
Have you spent much time contemplating how much worse our conditions might now be without a union applying the brakes?
Forget fixed pattern, forget anything more than minimum legal leave, forget anything that they dont legally have to give you, like quality accomodation or crew food/water. The management want you to leave. They say they have plenty of people queing up to work far more, for far less.
Everyone marks a CC (or the mighty BALPA machine) purely on what they gain from management.
Whilst this may have been true in the past, in legacy carriers, with high percentage union membership, it no longer applies to the LCC model.
With ...management permananetly in 'cut-back' mode, your CC spends the majority of time fire-fighting, and trying to stop a backward slide!
Have you spent much time contemplating how much worse our conditions might now be without a union applying the brakes?
Forget fixed pattern, forget anything more than minimum legal leave, forget anything that they dont legally have to give you, like quality accomodation or crew food/water. The management want you to leave. They say they have plenty of people queing up to work far more, for far less.
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Well nothing changes at easy.When I resigned from BALPA 2 years ago after 13 years membership it was because a cc from LPL had sorted out over 60 s working rights plus we pay 1000 a year to keep that s**t food and new capts get 90% pay.The capt involved being over 60 of course, it wouldnt be the same gentleman would it?Nothing will ever improve at that sorrry excuse for an airline.The grass is still very much greener.
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Not Orange
So you resigned over 3 issues, 2 of which are not true!! How clever is that.
(for the record, there are no over 60s working rights, and the crew food money was the biggrest red herring of the century. Since you left the food has improved immeasurabely in quality and quantity).
What's more, rather than stay and help fight the 90% thing.........you resigned - brilliant idea!
I guess if you managed a football team, you'd take players off the pitch to mysteriously enhance the chances of victory.
So you resigned over 3 issues, 2 of which are not true!! How clever is that.
(for the record, there are no over 60s working rights, and the crew food money was the biggrest red herring of the century. Since you left the food has improved immeasurabely in quality and quantity).
What's more, rather than stay and help fight the 90% thing.........you resigned - brilliant idea!
I guess if you managed a football team, you'd take players off the pitch to mysteriously enhance the chances of victory.
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F1 and outosynch,
Try to see things realistically instead of though ´orange´ glasses.
A lot of pilots within easyJet are unhappy with BALPA.
Why do you think such is the case? All because of ´issues which are not true?´
Oh yeah, one more thing: it´s not just new captains that get 90% pay during the first 6 months. Brand new TRSS F/O´s (who already are on a reduced salary after paying for their type up front!) also get 90% of that reduced salary for the first 6 months!
Try to see things realistically instead of though ´orange´ glasses.
A lot of pilots within easyJet are unhappy with BALPA.
Why do you think such is the case? All because of ´issues which are not true?´
Oh yeah, one more thing: it´s not just new captains that get 90% pay during the first 6 months. Brand new TRSS F/O´s (who already are on a reduced salary after paying for their type up front!) also get 90% of that reduced salary for the first 6 months!
Last edited by Bokkenrijder; 9th Jul 2005 at 10:33.
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Unions
I posted this on another thread but it works particularly well here with the discussion re unions.
As an ex union rep (not flight deck but aviation) there is a fundamental element the 'Don't join/won't join' element consistantly miss. You need numbers of members and the more the better. I've taken the references to EZY out as it it not relevant to this posting, as it applies whatever company you are in. Its pointless moaning about what BALPA T&G Unison USDAW arent doing for you. You are NOT a MEMBER and therefore are NOT being represented by the union. To be represented you have to join. If you're not happy with the policies being persued, then YOU have to make the effort to change them, YOU have to make the COMMITTMENT, as those you are unsatisfied with have done to get you to your current position. I used to have non members come to me and say what are you doing about such and such? 'Well I pay my subs, I'm do this for fellow MEMBERS in my time and its my committment, what's it got to do with you?' I'd ask. 'Well it affect's me too' they'd say. How very true I'd agree, and me doing #### all would affect you even more! Try it and see!
I used to get some very satisfactory results for both members and the company on individual personal issues, (the member isn't always right you see), but on the big T&C issues you will not get significant change without strength in numbers. This means the dissillusioned have to get their hands in their pockets and in effect pay to improve their conditions. Just like existing members already are, you have to see it as an investment. Literally no pain no gain. If you're not prepared to put up then shut up. A works council can influence some agenda in my experience, but with a strong union the effect is magnified. For those who were dissatisfied with vote results you need to remember that you may well have 100 members, but if only 5 can be bothered to vote on an issue then its not rocket science to see what effect the wrong 5% voting can have! You have to be active, not passive, that means other members have to assist to encourage non-members to join, you can't expect the reps to do it all. Or do you? because they have decided to try and improve things and sacrifice their time and effort is it right to sit there and say I'm a member, I'm way to busy to help, but I sure can moan about whats done on my behalf!. Well thats the benefit of my 8 years as a rep, and to any frustrated rep out there, just remember to ask 'Well what are YOU going to do from outside the union/council?' How are YOU going to improve things here at xyz?, to the next dumb question from a non-member. Then ask why they don't join, in my experience it frequently it boils down to them expecting something for nothing.
From Sydney Zoo an Alligator,
was put on board a flying freighter.
He ate the pilot and the navigator,
then asked for more with mashed potater
As an ex union rep (not flight deck but aviation) there is a fundamental element the 'Don't join/won't join' element consistantly miss. You need numbers of members and the more the better. I've taken the references to EZY out as it it not relevant to this posting, as it applies whatever company you are in. Its pointless moaning about what BALPA T&G Unison USDAW arent doing for you. You are NOT a MEMBER and therefore are NOT being represented by the union. To be represented you have to join. If you're not happy with the policies being persued, then YOU have to make the effort to change them, YOU have to make the COMMITTMENT, as those you are unsatisfied with have done to get you to your current position. I used to have non members come to me and say what are you doing about such and such? 'Well I pay my subs, I'm do this for fellow MEMBERS in my time and its my committment, what's it got to do with you?' I'd ask. 'Well it affect's me too' they'd say. How very true I'd agree, and me doing #### all would affect you even more! Try it and see!
I used to get some very satisfactory results for both members and the company on individual personal issues, (the member isn't always right you see), but on the big T&C issues you will not get significant change without strength in numbers. This means the dissillusioned have to get their hands in their pockets and in effect pay to improve their conditions. Just like existing members already are, you have to see it as an investment. Literally no pain no gain. If you're not prepared to put up then shut up. A works council can influence some agenda in my experience, but with a strong union the effect is magnified. For those who were dissatisfied with vote results you need to remember that you may well have 100 members, but if only 5 can be bothered to vote on an issue then its not rocket science to see what effect the wrong 5% voting can have! You have to be active, not passive, that means other members have to assist to encourage non-members to join, you can't expect the reps to do it all. Or do you? because they have decided to try and improve things and sacrifice their time and effort is it right to sit there and say I'm a member, I'm way to busy to help, but I sure can moan about whats done on my behalf!. Well thats the benefit of my 8 years as a rep, and to any frustrated rep out there, just remember to ask 'Well what are YOU going to do from outside the union/council?' How are YOU going to improve things here at xyz?, to the next dumb question from a non-member. Then ask why they don't join, in my experience it frequently it boils down to them expecting something for nothing.
From Sydney Zoo an Alligator,
was put on board a flying freighter.
He ate the pilot and the navigator,
then asked for more with mashed potater
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but Bokkie
You say 'are unhappy with BALPA'.
Who is BALPA in any company? The CC !!!
If you are unhappy with a bunch of volunteers trying their very best.... then get yourself on the CC and show how you can do better. No one else can change things... except members themselves getting involved.
Resigning is fine, and your democratic right, as long as you are resigned to a worse deal next time, because the CC dont have the 'mandate' to do better.
Who is BALPA in any company? The CC !!!
If you are unhappy with a bunch of volunteers trying their very best.... then get yourself on the CC and show how you can do better. No one else can change things... except members themselves getting involved.
Resigning is fine, and your democratic right, as long as you are resigned to a worse deal next time, because the CC dont have the 'mandate' to do better.
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Support and Unite
The CC work extremely hard in their own time and unpaid to better the lot for all the members
Days off are given up to make base visits and formulate ideas and review things such as pay surveys etc and all the troops can do is bash them into the ground - no wonder anyone has the energy to stay on the council for more than 2 years. At BA some of the council members have stood for nearly 10 years but they have a supportive membership who see the benefits of supporting their CC.
If anyone thinks the CC can just wave a magic wand and resolve all the issues put yourself up for election and see the real world.
It is all about expectations - if most people really bothered to think long and hard about what is achievable realistically then we might get somewhere - however most people just expect the CC to demand X Y & Z and for it to happen - well it won't without your support!
The CC work tirelessly to foster working relationships with all parties they work with - militancy and adverserial behaviour doesn't work but things cannot be achieved overnight. The amount of ongoing issues they have to deal with is overwhelming leaving an unsatisfactory amount of time to recruit. Members can help - everyone has a responsibility which they can use everytime they fly - so instead of putting energy into CC bashing why don't you put that into recruiting new members and then we will have real power to enforce change - look at what can be achieved when you have 80-90% membership such as Virgin etc
Days off are given up to make base visits and formulate ideas and review things such as pay surveys etc and all the troops can do is bash them into the ground - no wonder anyone has the energy to stay on the council for more than 2 years. At BA some of the council members have stood for nearly 10 years but they have a supportive membership who see the benefits of supporting their CC.
If anyone thinks the CC can just wave a magic wand and resolve all the issues put yourself up for election and see the real world.
It is all about expectations - if most people really bothered to think long and hard about what is achievable realistically then we might get somewhere - however most people just expect the CC to demand X Y & Z and for it to happen - well it won't without your support!
The CC work tirelessly to foster working relationships with all parties they work with - militancy and adverserial behaviour doesn't work but things cannot be achieved overnight. The amount of ongoing issues they have to deal with is overwhelming leaving an unsatisfactory amount of time to recruit. Members can help - everyone has a responsibility which they can use everytime they fly - so instead of putting energy into CC bashing why don't you put that into recruiting new members and then we will have real power to enforce change - look at what can be achieved when you have 80-90% membership such as Virgin etc
Last edited by SHIMMY; 9th Jul 2005 at 20:31.
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outofsynch,
Simply throwing in the towel and saying ´why don´t you join the CC yourself´ is a very poor argument.
You (as volunteer on the CC?
) should be in touch with the membership and listen to their feedback regarding hot issues.
A frequent complaint is that the CC does not listen very well to what the members want, but rather appears to have it´s own agenda, which is what this thread is about!
The result is that members feel that they are going backwards regarding issues like leave, profit sharing, pay, TRSS, rostering etcetera...
I do admire and appreciate the CC´s work, but I think the CC would make life a lot easier for itself if it would focus more on increasing it´s profile/visibility among the pilotcorps, rather than having ´behind closed doors´ meetings with management.
Simply throwing in the towel and saying ´why don´t you join the CC yourself´ is a very poor argument.
You (as volunteer on the CC?
) should be in touch with the membership and listen to their feedback regarding hot issues. A frequent complaint is that the CC does not listen very well to what the members want, but rather appears to have it´s own agenda, which is what this thread is about!
The result is that members feel that they are going backwards regarding issues like leave, profit sharing, pay, TRSS, rostering etcetera...
I do admire and appreciate the CC´s work, but I think the CC would make life a lot easier for itself if it would focus more on increasing it´s profile/visibility among the pilotcorps, rather than having ´behind closed doors´ meetings with management.
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Bokkenrijder
Meetings with management are confidential until an agreement is reached on an issue or publication of minutes are agreed. That has nothing to so with EZY but is in line with every official industrial recognition agreement in the UK.
We routinely canvass opinions from members, using formal surveys for the major issues. Action is taken on the majority opinion expressed therein.
What else can we do? The majority want something, we go for it and get the best we can but then someone who wanted something else says we didn't do what they asked us to. We DO always go with the majority - it's that simple.
Interestingly, a recent survey has highlighted a members priority area that we firmly believe is wrong, but we will go with the majority opinion until other instructions come in to the contrary.
Meetings with management are confidential until an agreement is reached on an issue or publication of minutes are agreed. That has nothing to so with EZY but is in line with every official industrial recognition agreement in the UK.
We routinely canvass opinions from members, using formal surveys for the major issues. Action is taken on the majority opinion expressed therein.
What else can we do? The majority want something, we go for it and get the best we can but then someone who wanted something else says we didn't do what they asked us to. We DO always go with the majority - it's that simple.
Interestingly, a recent survey has highlighted a members priority area that we firmly believe is wrong, but we will go with the majority opinion until other instructions come in to the contrary.
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Do people really think the CC are doing nothing about the issues?
Well here is what they are doing
Leave - currently evaluating a completely new system
Pay - reviewing all the pay surveys that went out so that a priority and strategy can be put together for the imminent pay negotiations - what the MEMBERS want - nothing to do with the CC priorities - they would be the same as yours as they are line pilots too you know - I don't know why anyone would think they are any different
Rostering - ongoing discussions with the Company about the building blocks needed to put in place now to improve the new system. More improvement likely once the full data from 5/2 5/4 is available in September
Profit Share - Loyalty bonus will remain until such time as something at least equivalent is avaiable which doesn't appear to be on any horizon soon
TRSS - CTC presented to the CC last week and gave detailed information about the scheme and answered some challenging questions
Then there is Information and Consulting agreement, part time working, leave allocation, over 60s, dual basing, NEC matters, joint union alliances in Europe, base visits, recruitment, disciplinaries, grievances, poor performance policy, drugs and alcohol policy etc etc etc - all that amongst 8 people in their own time
Now do you see realities??? Lets support our CC and show some unity please!
Well here is what they are doing
Leave - currently evaluating a completely new system
Pay - reviewing all the pay surveys that went out so that a priority and strategy can be put together for the imminent pay negotiations - what the MEMBERS want - nothing to do with the CC priorities - they would be the same as yours as they are line pilots too you know - I don't know why anyone would think they are any different
Rostering - ongoing discussions with the Company about the building blocks needed to put in place now to improve the new system. More improvement likely once the full data from 5/2 5/4 is available in September
Profit Share - Loyalty bonus will remain until such time as something at least equivalent is avaiable which doesn't appear to be on any horizon soon
TRSS - CTC presented to the CC last week and gave detailed information about the scheme and answered some challenging questions
Then there is Information and Consulting agreement, part time working, leave allocation, over 60s, dual basing, NEC matters, joint union alliances in Europe, base visits, recruitment, disciplinaries, grievances, poor performance policy, drugs and alcohol policy etc etc etc - all that amongst 8 people in their own time
Now do you see realities??? Lets support our CC and show some unity please!
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Flaps one
Why is the C.C. even entering into negotiations on TRSS when this in itself is a gaint step backwards for the whole industry?
Every negotiation so far has meant that we have lost something to gain very little.
I'm not knocking the effort that you guys put in but I do query the results, when ever it looks like we are going to need a ballot for industrial action everybody S5its themselves, what you need is a mandate for industrial action to be used as a weapon it dosn,t have to be used!
The time for "all wind and trousers" has to come to an end!
Why is the C.C. even entering into negotiations on TRSS when this in itself is a gaint step backwards for the whole industry?
Every negotiation so far has meant that we have lost something to gain very little.
I'm not knocking the effort that you guys put in but I do query the results, when ever it looks like we are going to need a ballot for industrial action everybody S5its themselves, what you need is a mandate for industrial action to be used as a weapon it dosn,t have to be used!
The time for "all wind and trousers" has to come to an end!
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unablereqnavperf
The reason we talk is because without it we won't have an airline!!
The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay and we would be failing in our reponsibility not to keep a handle on what's being done about it.
Think carefully about industrial action. There's a place for it but there's never really a time for it. It must be justified and fully supported. To win effectively, it must be recognised by the public as being just. Airline pilots strriking for pay, for example, would draw hoots of derision form the media and public at at large and would undoubtedly fail. Fatigue, on the other hand, would be a different debate. Like I have said before, get me the support etc.............................
Now that lot is not easy to satisfy which is why it is always a last resort. Put simply that means when ALL other avenues have failed.
The reason we talk is because without it we won't have an airline!!
The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay and we would be failing in our reponsibility not to keep a handle on what's being done about it.
Think carefully about industrial action. There's a place for it but there's never really a time for it. It must be justified and fully supported. To win effectively, it must be recognised by the public as being just. Airline pilots strriking for pay, for example, would draw hoots of derision form the media and public at at large and would undoubtedly fail. Fatigue, on the other hand, would be a different debate. Like I have said before, get me the support etc.............................
Now that lot is not easy to satisfy which is why it is always a last resort. Put simply that means when ALL other avenues have failed.
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The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay and we would be failing in our reponsibility not to keep a handle on what's being done about it.
Like it or loathe it (and many like it!) it's here to stay...
Interestingly, a recent survey has highlighted a members priority area that we firmly believe is wrong, but we will go with the majority opinion until other instructions come in to the contrary.
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I refer you to my posting of 1st July on the other Easy thread(leaving for greener pastures)/sorry I'm too stone-age to link.I hate to say "told you so" but the more things change the more they don't. Ask any of your(non-masonic)ex BMI colleagues we had this scum for years.Good luck,careful with the hand-shakes!
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FlapsOne
The vast majority of joiners are TRSS just now. Like it or loathe it (and many like it!)
I have a serious question for you. I paid eJ £23,000 for the job (with a standard salary). I wasn't paid for 3.5 months. I had my salary reduced by 10% for the next 6 months. I paid for my uniform. I was then told that all my base requests were denied, and I had to re-locate to a different country at my own cost.
My question is: what is it that these pilots like about TRSS? Seriously. Because I might have missed the point, and as such am not enjoying the benefits of TRSS as much as I should.
I was considering joining BALPA. But it is a matter of economics. The last pay rise was 1.98% pa. If I have to pay BALPA for negotiating this, then my pay rise is a whopping 0.98%. Sorry, but I've been fleeced once recently, and won't be fleeced again.
Anyway, I'm off now to spend my loyalty bonus. I'm sure I put it somewhere... Oh, no, I forgot, that was negotiated away from me too.
Stu
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I think it's time for these daft arguments about the numbers game to STOP.
As posted elsewhere - if the CC keeps harping on about its great relationship with management and says it can't negotiate better deals due to the dwindling membership then there needs to be a sincere about-face in the way the CC does business with the company.
Unions do not exist to smooth the path for unpopular decisions by management. Unions are a means for a workforce to make representation for BETTER working conditions, and if they can't get them by "peaceful" means, then they can use their position to apply other means of pressure.
It is not illegal to use more fuel, but by heck if all the BALPA members began loading a bit more and working to rule, you will hear the pips squeak down in easyLand.
Start growing some teeth, EZY CC, and start seeing the membership grow accordingly!
As posted elsewhere - if the CC keeps harping on about its great relationship with management and says it can't negotiate better deals due to the dwindling membership then there needs to be a sincere about-face in the way the CC does business with the company.
Unions do not exist to smooth the path for unpopular decisions by management. Unions are a means for a workforce to make representation for BETTER working conditions, and if they can't get them by "peaceful" means, then they can use their position to apply other means of pressure.
It is not illegal to use more fuel, but by heck if all the BALPA members began loading a bit more and working to rule, you will hear the pips squeak down in easyLand.
Start growing some teeth, EZY CC, and start seeing the membership grow accordingly!
Last edited by Slim20; 10th Jul 2005 at 19:18.