A/C flies with tape covered alt static ports?
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A/C flies with tape covered alternate static ports?
Will this raise any queries, or is there a different agenda here.
Over 18 months ago, when I was still a lowly ramp lead agent, during a walkround inspection, I found both alternate static ports on a 737 covered with speed tape. The aircraft had night stopped. I called the line maintenance engineer back, in case he'd dropped a b
k and forgotten to take it off.
Turned out he hadn't forgotten to take it off, as he'd not put it on, but he had missed the fact that it was there.
After a lot of head scratching, and phone calls, as there was no way I was letting that aircraft go without an answer, it transpired that the aircraft had received a "deep wash" at it's home base, and someone had forgotten to remove the tape after it had been completed.
As if that wasn't bad enough, not only had they missed it, the aircraft had flown for over 2 days in that condition!!!
Was anything said? Was anything done? Well, the only thing I know is that the ramp manager, when I got asked why it had gone 30 or 40 minutes late, made it VERY clear that if I put ANYTHING in writing, (which I had told him I was about to do) life would become difficult!!!
It should have been an AAIB investigation. I suspect that nothing at all happened.
The carrier involved was not a small cheapskate operator, they are one of the Eastern European operators that I had thought were a better level than some.
To me, this was a far more insidiously dangerous situation than flying an aircraft certified to fly on 3 engines. It was kept quiet, too quiet. This thread and the related threads have attracted more heat and emotive language than almost anything I've seen outside of Jet Blast in close on 3 years. I find that strange and slightly worrying. There was the potential for an accident. Most days, someone has an incident that has the potential to become an accident, but they're not disected to the level that this one has been. In a minute, we're going to be asked what colour underwear the flight crew were wearing, it's got to that level.
Edited to correct a confusion in the title after it was split from another thread
Over 18 months ago, when I was still a lowly ramp lead agent, during a walkround inspection, I found both alternate static ports on a 737 covered with speed tape. The aircraft had night stopped. I called the line maintenance engineer back, in case he'd dropped a b
k and forgotten to take it off. Turned out he hadn't forgotten to take it off, as he'd not put it on, but he had missed the fact that it was there.
After a lot of head scratching, and phone calls, as there was no way I was letting that aircraft go without an answer, it transpired that the aircraft had received a "deep wash" at it's home base, and someone had forgotten to remove the tape after it had been completed.
As if that wasn't bad enough, not only had they missed it, the aircraft had flown for over 2 days in that condition!!!
Was anything said? Was anything done? Well, the only thing I know is that the ramp manager, when I got asked why it had gone 30 or 40 minutes late, made it VERY clear that if I put ANYTHING in writing, (which I had told him I was about to do) life would become difficult!!!
It should have been an AAIB investigation. I suspect that nothing at all happened.
The carrier involved was not a small cheapskate operator, they are one of the Eastern European operators that I had thought were a better level than some.
To me, this was a far more insidiously dangerous situation than flying an aircraft certified to fly on 3 engines. It was kept quiet, too quiet. This thread and the related threads have attracted more heat and emotive language than almost anything I've seen outside of Jet Blast in close on 3 years. I find that strange and slightly worrying. There was the potential for an accident. Most days, someone has an incident that has the potential to become an accident, but they're not disected to the level that this one has been. In a minute, we're going to be asked what colour underwear the flight crew were wearing, it's got to that level.
Edited to correct a confusion in the title after it was split from another thread
Last edited by Irish Steve; 12th May 2005 at 21:35.
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Aeroperu 757
That was what brought down the Aeroperu 757 a while back.
Amazing to think, even after being reminded of it, they let it go. But surely they would have experienced some problems on the flight from wherever? Speed indications etc, which would have told them something was amiss?
Amazing to think, even after being reminded of it, they let it go. But surely they would have experienced some problems on the flight from wherever? Speed indications etc, which would have told them something was amiss?
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Would it not have been possible for you to contact the national authorities anomynously at the time? Circumventing the relevant duty manager?
Why after 18months since the incident do you choose to bring it up now? Better late than never, but the time it should have been investigated was then, although, you could still blow the whistle and alert the IAA???
Though PPrune may bring some differing opinions from engineers and pilots on the issue, nothing meaningful will come of it. The IAA are the authority who should be alerted to this, even at this late stage, if you deem it worthy.
IMO
Why after 18months since the incident do you choose to bring it up now? Better late than never, but the time it should have been investigated was then, although, you could still blow the whistle and alert the IAA???
Though PPrune may bring some differing opinions from engineers and pilots on the issue, nothing meaningful will come of it. The IAA are the authority who should be alerted to this, even at this late stage, if you deem it worthy.
IMO
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Wasn't the Birgenair 757 that crashed out of Puerto Plata also atrributed to blocked/covered pitot tubes and/or static ports? The AeroPeru accident is covered on the Air Crash Investigation series on satellite and indeed was caused by taped ports.
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If the static ports are covered up I don't think that that this aeroplane would have managed TWO days worth of flying without someone noticing!!! Methinks you're talking bollocks
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Flightmech, for info - Birgenair ALW301 06 Feb 96. From the Flight Safety Foundation:
The official report correlates the airspeed discrepancy with a total blockage of the Capt’s pitot tube. ‘The most likely source of obstruction was mud and/or debris from a small insect ...... The aircraft was not flown for 20 days before the crash and was returned to service without a verification of the pitot-static system as recommended by the manufacture’s maintenance procedures.’
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OK, let's correct a mistake that's not of my making.
The original post was made into the ongoing discussion about the BA 747 that went into Manchester on 3, and if you look at my wording, it's very clear that I said ALTERNATE STATIC PORTS I DO know the difference between pitot, static and alternate static, along with quite a few other things, as a result of the aviation training I've done that had nothing to do with ramp operations, and everything to do with ATPL exams back in the days when they were hard work written papers.
Hopefully, the error on the title can be corrected, I will see if I can do it, but as one of the mods did the split, they may have to correct it. (.OK, I was able to correct it, and it's now reading what I would have typed if I'd done it, sorry for any confusion )
It happened. The reason I can now speak out about it is that I no longer work on the ramp, so there's no way I can be threatened, intimidated or anything else about this scenario, one of several that I witnessed.
The IAA have been informed, in writing, and will hopefully be looking in to this, so my conscience is now clear.
At the time, it was made very clear to me that if I reported it, or even lodged a written report within the internal system of the company, I would regret it.
I needed the income, the dole in Ireland is even lower than in the UK, and as I'd been self employed for quite a few years, getting the dole was not going to be easy, so I had to make some hard choices. I'm no longer in that situation, and I've decided that it's time some of the more worrying aspects about some of these incidents came out. I'm not scandal making, but I do care seriously about what happens in the industry, and these sorts of incidents, and others, do no one any favours at all.
The local station had no responsibility for this incident other than the line maintenance engineer and the operating crew missing seeing the tape. What's slightly worrying is that the crew that flew it in were also the crew that were taking it out after the night stop, so they'd missed it the previous evening when they took the aircraft over.
As such, the main issue here was at the aircraft's home base, but the implications are significant. If a pitot heater had failed, and the crew had switched to alternate static, any instruments connected to the taped port would have mis read. If they had then switched the other side to alternate to see if there was any difference, all the instruments that use static would have been mis reading. That's brought aircraft down, several times, and I have to admit that I was both worried and relieved that I'd found it and made sure that it went on its' way later with the ports
open
If bringing it out in to the open now means that the relevant flight safety management pilots go back to their home bases and ask "How do we cover ports when an aircraft is washed, and how do we check the covers are removed afterwards? ", then I've achieved what I want, people are aware of something very simple, insidious and potentially a killer in the wrong circumstances. That's worth doing.
The original post was made into the ongoing discussion about the BA 747 that went into Manchester on 3, and if you look at my wording, it's very clear that I said ALTERNATE STATIC PORTS I DO know the difference between pitot, static and alternate static, along with quite a few other things, as a result of the aviation training I've done that had nothing to do with ramp operations, and everything to do with ATPL exams back in the days when they were hard work written papers.
Hopefully, the error on the title can be corrected, I will see if I can do it, but as one of the mods did the split, they may have to correct it. (.OK, I was able to correct it, and it's now reading what I would have typed if I'd done it, sorry for any confusion )
It happened. The reason I can now speak out about it is that I no longer work on the ramp, so there's no way I can be threatened, intimidated or anything else about this scenario, one of several that I witnessed.
The IAA have been informed, in writing, and will hopefully be looking in to this, so my conscience is now clear.
At the time, it was made very clear to me that if I reported it, or even lodged a written report within the internal system of the company, I would regret it.
I needed the income, the dole in Ireland is even lower than in the UK, and as I'd been self employed for quite a few years, getting the dole was not going to be easy, so I had to make some hard choices. I'm no longer in that situation, and I've decided that it's time some of the more worrying aspects about some of these incidents came out. I'm not scandal making, but I do care seriously about what happens in the industry, and these sorts of incidents, and others, do no one any favours at all.
The local station had no responsibility for this incident other than the line maintenance engineer and the operating crew missing seeing the tape. What's slightly worrying is that the crew that flew it in were also the crew that were taking it out after the night stop, so they'd missed it the previous evening when they took the aircraft over.
As such, the main issue here was at the aircraft's home base, but the implications are significant. If a pitot heater had failed, and the crew had switched to alternate static, any instruments connected to the taped port would have mis read. If they had then switched the other side to alternate to see if there was any difference, all the instruments that use static would have been mis reading. That's brought aircraft down, several times, and I have to admit that I was both worried and relieved that I'd found it and made sure that it went on its' way later with the ports
open
If bringing it out in to the open now means that the relevant flight safety management pilots go back to their home bases and ask "How do we cover ports when an aircraft is washed, and how do we check the covers are removed afterwards? ", then I've achieved what I want, people are aware of something very simple, insidious and potentially a killer in the wrong circumstances. That's worth doing.
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"How do we cover ports when an aircraft is washed, and how do we check the covers are removed afterwards? "
This is not an isolated incident and happens quite frequently. To make it worse, some maintenance people use silver coloured speed tape that is very easily missed on aluminium.
The best thing to do is to make an entry in the maintenance log when the ports are covered which has to be signed off before the next flight.
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Did you write a CHIRP at the time of the incident?
If you'd been sat where I was when it was "discussed", even confidential reporting doesn't look very inviting if it's going to mean it gets back to management, and there was a real risk that it might, and they'd have known exactly where to come, the number of people working on the ramp at that time that would know enough to report an incident like this was way too small for comfort, they'd have come to me in about 5 seconds. At the time, I had a mortgage and some very large bills to pay, and losing the job wasn't going to do anything to improve flight safety at the time.
To make it worse, some maintenance people use silver coloured speed tape that is very easily missed on aluminium.
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Pitot-static failure modes
Here's a vaguely related accident:
Iced pitot during climb
The trapped air in the pitot system caused a steadily increasing IAS indication in climb. Crew thought they were overspeed and attempted to reduce speed, resulting in a deep stall.
Iced pitot during climb
The trapped air in the pitot system caused a steadily increasing IAS indication in climb. Crew thought they were overspeed and attempted to reduce speed, resulting in a deep stall.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Good to see a man who'll stand up for his principles, Irish Steve.
How would you and your mortgage have felt if there HAD been an accident as a result of something similar being the cause?
How would you and your mortgage have felt if there HAD been an accident as a result of something similar being the cause?
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IrishSteve,
This is at least the 2nd time that you have started a topic regarding this incident. Considering that it happened close to 2 years ago, it looks as if you are just trying to vent your feelings about servisair!
Mutt.
This is at least the 2nd time that you have started a topic regarding this incident. Considering that it happened close to 2 years ago, it looks as if you are just trying to vent your feelings about servisair!
Mutt.
Irish Steve
Several points....
1...You did your job and safety was enhanced. You are not responsible for the others that allowed/missed this problem.
2..At the end of the day it was only the alternate system. (fortunately)
3..After 30 years of airline flying I never had to use the alt sys for real and I suspect just about everyone else would not have either.
4..Any pilot worth his salt should have a fair idea of what to expect if the need arose to switch to alternate.
5..If the official reporting system is denied/discouraged there is still the word of mouth.
Several points....
1...You did your job and safety was enhanced. You are not responsible for the others that allowed/missed this problem.
2..At the end of the day it was only the alternate system. (fortunately)
3..After 30 years of airline flying I never had to use the alt sys for real and I suspect just about everyone else would not have either.
4..Any pilot worth his salt should have a fair idea of what to expect if the need arose to switch to alternate.
5..If the official reporting system is denied/discouraged there is still the word of mouth.
Steve
You did okay,all things considered. That manager should have his arse kicked for threatening you for highlighting a safety deficiency.
Mutt, He didn't say if it was Circusair, did he??
As for a confidential CHIRP-style system, well, It does not work all that well for non-pilots. It's less well known about and less easily accessed. I'd wager that the average chock-flinger in EIDW hasn't ever heard of the AAIU, much less know how to find them. The wash crew should have picked that one up before the aircraft ever left the wash bay. As for the last comment that it was "only" the alternate system, that beggars belief. The whole point of an alternate is that it is available when the primary becomes unavailable.
The comment about speed tape being hard to see is a good and pertinent one. How many people know where the full complement of streamers, blanks and covers are stored? Are they aboard or are they shoved in a locker somewhere?
regards
TDD
You did okay,all things considered. That manager should have his arse kicked for threatening you for highlighting a safety deficiency.
Mutt, He didn't say if it was Circusair, did he??
As for a confidential CHIRP-style system, well, It does not work all that well for non-pilots. It's less well known about and less easily accessed. I'd wager that the average chock-flinger in EIDW hasn't ever heard of the AAIU, much less know how to find them. The wash crew should have picked that one up before the aircraft ever left the wash bay. As for the last comment that it was "only" the alternate system, that beggars belief. The whole point of an alternate is that it is available when the primary becomes unavailable.
The comment about speed tape being hard to see is a good and pertinent one. How many people know where the full complement of streamers, blanks and covers are stored? Are they aboard or are they shoved in a locker somewhere?
regards
TDD
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Considering that it happened close to 2 years ago, it looks as if you are just trying to vent your feelings about servisair!
SA are unique in that they advertise they will handle pretty much anything, but it became very clear after a while that there are massive holes in their training for such situations. They are good at training people how to operate SA equipment. They do NOTHING to train the ramp people on certain aircaft families, let alone types, with the result that there are huge health and safety issues that are an accident waiting to happen.
I could go into more details, but that's distraction from the point. It came up originally as part of a message related to the BA 747 into Manchester, triggered by the LHR incident where both runways were closed at the same time for a few minutes, and related to that. The section of the messaage that started this thread was stripped our and reposted under a new (slightly wrong) title by the mods.
I Know from experience that the quality of handling by SA varies from station to station, I've been on the receiving end of it as a passenger and as an aircraft operator.
Locally, they've had one fataility where someone got too close to a live prop. I'd prefer not to see someone else hurt by a total lack of awareness at management levels.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It is becoming more obvious - thanks to mutt's highlighting of it - that you have a problem with your previous employer, Irish Steve, and are hoping to gain some further "exposure" by writing about it here on PPRuNe.
So please allow me to ask you to now provide some cold, hard FACTS, to back up some of your earlier assertations.
You seemingly imply that if you had reported the problem, you would have been made redundant
Can you cite one (or more) previous examples of employees of the company concerned, who suffered this fate?
Or was it your own imagination that led you to this conclusion?
Please explain to your wider audience (that you've invited, by way of your posting), why you - an airline employee - consider the cost of your house(s) more important than the lives of individuals who were onboard aircraft operated by that company for whom you worked?
What would be the outcome if EVERYONE....lame, pilot, policeman, ambulance driver, etc adopted YOUR attitude?
Quite frankly, you didn't have the balls to make an issue of it at the time when it WAS critically important.
I doubt that you will have the FACTS to back up your gutless, platonic reasons for not making an issue of it (had you really wanted to) at the time.
In REALITY, you were only doing your job, when you "discovered" something that had slipped past the other humans - and you SHOULD have been commended for it.
End of story (imo)!
So please allow me to ask you to now provide some cold, hard FACTS, to back up some of your earlier assertations.
You seemingly imply that if you had reported the problem, you would have been made redundant
At the time, it was made very clear to me that if I reported it, or even lodged a written report within the internal system of the company, I would regret it.
I needed the income, the dole in Ireland is even lower than in the UK, and as I'd been self employed for quite a few years, getting the dole was not going to be easy, so I had to make some hard choices.
I needed the income, the dole in Ireland is even lower than in the UK, and as I'd been self employed for quite a few years, getting the dole was not going to be easy, so I had to make some hard choices.
Or was it your own imagination that led you to this conclusion?
Please explain to your wider audience (that you've invited, by way of your posting), why you - an airline employee - consider the cost of your house(s) more important than the lives of individuals who were onboard aircraft operated by that company for whom you worked?
At the time, I had a mortgage and some very large bills to pay, and losing the job wasn't going to do anything to improve flight safety at the time.
Quite frankly, you didn't have the balls to make an issue of it at the time when it WAS critically important.
I doubt that you will have the FACTS to back up your gutless, platonic reasons for not making an issue of it (had you really wanted to) at the time.
In REALITY, you were only doing your job, when you "discovered" something that had slipped past the other humans - and you SHOULD have been commended for it.
End of story (imo)!
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Kaptin M
I can't reply fully at the moment, too much else on the plate, but before you eat my head for lunch, a couple of clarifications.
I didn't work for the airline, I was working for the handling agent.
I didn't ignore the issue, I pushed it as far as I could at the time, having first made sure that there was no risk to the aircraft. No different to many other people and situations that I've seen discussed here and in other places. If the tape hadn't been removed, then someone else would have had to take over from me to get the aircraft moving.
Subsequent events have confirmed that my concerns about my situation were justified.
I can't "prove" what you're looking for, but when you're the only one on the ramp with any form of formal flying qualification, there's a lot that happens that most ramp people don't even notice.
I didn't let the aircraft leave in a dangerous condition, and I did as much as I could at the time to try and make sure that it didn't happen again.
If you care to search, in another (ATC related) thread I've also mentioned an incident that happened to me while flying that occurred over 10 years ago, it was relevant to the thread at the time, and has flight safety implications.
Yes, if an ineffective unskilled manager now gets some heat, that's not going to worry me at all, he deserves it.
When I made the comments it was part of a larger message related to safety in general, and in the context of an incident that didn't cause any problems getting massive attention, while other incidents that could have been equally or more serious were getting no attention or being ignored.
I didn't work for the airline, I was working for the handling agent.
I didn't ignore the issue, I pushed it as far as I could at the time, having first made sure that there was no risk to the aircraft. No different to many other people and situations that I've seen discussed here and in other places. If the tape hadn't been removed, then someone else would have had to take over from me to get the aircraft moving.
Subsequent events have confirmed that my concerns about my situation were justified.
I can't "prove" what you're looking for, but when you're the only one on the ramp with any form of formal flying qualification, there's a lot that happens that most ramp people don't even notice.
I didn't let the aircraft leave in a dangerous condition, and I did as much as I could at the time to try and make sure that it didn't happen again.
If you care to search, in another (ATC related) thread I've also mentioned an incident that happened to me while flying that occurred over 10 years ago, it was relevant to the thread at the time, and has flight safety implications.
Yes, if an ineffective unskilled manager now gets some heat, that's not going to worry me at all, he deserves it.
When I made the comments it was part of a larger message related to safety in general, and in the context of an incident that didn't cause any problems getting massive attention, while other incidents that could have been equally or more serious were getting no attention or being ignored.
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Mutt, He didn't say if it was Circusair, did he??
Actually he did..... it started with the missing headset story
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=136784
Then it appeared in the Safety CRM and QA forum.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=168226
And now into Rumours and News!
Mutt.
Mutt, He didn't say if it was Circusair, did he??
Actually he did..... it started with the missing headset story
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=136784
Then it appeared in the Safety CRM and QA forum.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=168226
And now into Rumours and News!
Mutt.
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Mutt
it started with the missing headset story
Then it appeared in the Safety CRM and QA forum.
It's here now because one of the mods cut it out of the thread about the FAA/CAA difference of opinion about the BA747. I didn't post it as a seperate thread. I'm not complaining, it's for sure been seen by a lot more people that are at the sharp end every day, and that's why the comments were made.
I never identified who I was working for at the time, or what airline was involved, that's been done by other people, and I can't be responsible for the actions of those other people.