Jessica Starmer - BALPA's view (Update - Appeal decision)

[unablereqnavperf]

Sounds like taking the p*** to me!

Spoken to several female BA pilots who are not too pleased with HER!

[Heliport]

Mrs Starmer's activities have certainly generated a lot of interest, and excellent discussion.

Between this thread and the original (linked below) we've just gone through 762 posts and 100,000 views.

BA pilot's sex discrimination case. (incl Tribunal Judgment)

[PilotsPal]

It is reported that efforts to find a compromise have failed and the appeal by BA is being heard today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/4651801.stm

[Flying Lawyer]

There's been lots of comment and some confusion here about the 2000 hours rule.
Just to avoid any misunderstanding about the appeal -

There's no dispute that formal rule was introduced after the refusal so the rule itself is irrelevant in this particular case. However, BA will still be able to argue the safety aspects.

To win the appeal, BA will have to show its refusal to grant Mrs Starmer part-time working was justified and not discriminatory.

The hearing continues today.

[Flying Lawyer]

The hearing at the Employment Appeal Tribunal concluded today but judgment has been reserved.
ie The decision will be announced at some future date.

[behind_the_second_midland]

Interesting change of tribunal chairman.

[thegypsy]

Why don't BA put this troublemaker on 50% Salary and then sack her??

Would cost less in the long run as unfair dismissal claim will be based on 50% Salary??

[maxy101]

Not if the dismissal was found to be on the grounds of sexual discrimination....then there isn't a ceiling to the damages that could be awarded. (I'm sure Flying Lawyer could correct me if I'm mistaken)

[thegypsy]

maxy 101 You may be right but this has nothing to do with sexual discrimination but that BA do not want ANY Pilot with her level of inexperience working just 50%

Sack her and lets see how easy she finds getting a job from the wilds of Dorset as and when she stops having children.

BA need to send a strong message that they want 100% work from the workforce until they have more experience. Perhaps BA are paying their Pilots too much if they can afford 50% working??

[yimyam]

pregnant again, has she got a rich daddy who paid for her flying training ?
put her on part time and fail her opc/lpc.

[Carnage Matey!]

put her on part time and fail her opc/lpc.

That assumes you can find a stooge of a trainer who would be willing to fail her unfairly. Not withstanding the fact that the Airbus trainers are generally a fine bunch of chaps, all the sims have the ability to record and print the flight paths of any particular detail. One would need specific reason to fail the detail and if the system shows the flight was flown in accordance with the required standards you'd be on something of a sticky wicket to fail her. Besides, failing an OPC/LPC certainly isn't grounds for dismissal as a very senior manager recently did just such.

Sack her and lets see how easy she finds getting a job from the wilds of Dorset as and when she stops having children.

BA need to send a strong message that they want 100% work from the workforce until they have more experience

Fortunately even the most hard line BA manager is rather more sophisticated in the industrial relations field than thegypsy. The company are already getting hammered in the PR arena over this case. A fairly blatant "sack her and see if we care" attitude would result in a rapid end to any managers career. Corporate BA are actually quite a responsible employer. In the mean time BA are sending a strong message that they want 100% from the workforce regardless of experience. Part time contracts for any pilots are awarded sparingly with alacrity, and only because the law requires them to do so.

[Justbelowcap]

Umm

Sack her and lets see how easy she finds getting a job from the wilds of Dorset as and when she stops having children.

Too many GCSE's to count
Four grade A a-levels
First class honours degree from Oxford
British Gliding champ
Probably the highest marks in Western Europe for her JAR Op exams.
Extremley competent pilot.
Liked and respected by all those who have flown with her.


Yeah Jess would find it really tough to find another job......... I would so like to see "thegypsey" and Jess side by side in the sim to see who could really cut the mustard. I know who my money wold be on.

As far as the interview stage I wouldn't even have the heart to put thegypsy through the humiliation of trying to compete with such a quick and interesting intellect.

[Kirkwall]

Interesting debate considering Eileen Collins is about to blast off on her fourth mission as a Space Shuttle Commander. Looks like she did some gliding along the way too. Obvously not a crime in the states.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/pre...s_profile.html

I believe I read somewher that she has a couple of children. I wonder how NASA viewed her request for maternity leave? Did they consider writing her off as a waste of space and money?
I will think of this as I help develop a debate in my own company, part of which involves the question of whether manning the photocopier is appropriate work for a Captain temporarily grounded for reason's of maternity.

Come on BA, wake up, we are in a new century. The trouble is that most of the senior managers in the industry are left over from 1960's Transport Command, where chaps who flew the kites were Chaps.



The Gypsy and others, fancy offering your services and standing in for Eileen next week. Obviously, she is only a woman with kids, chop her on her next base check. There are plenty pruners like yourselvs out there (male) willing to jump in and do a better job.




Good on you NASA and good luck.

[Cruise Alt]

Kirkwall

Casting new light on the term 'frequent flyer,' she has logged more than 6,280 hours in 30 different types of aircraft. More than 537 of those hours were logged in space

Looks like Collins has a little more experience to me - guess she didn't spend her career part time!

Next...

[thegypsy]

Justbelowcap Yes we all know Jess is a clever Bunny! Perhaps too clever for her own good as it has turned out.

Getting a job from the wilds of Dorset has nothing to do with her Intellect or Degree but the fact that she is labelled a "trouble maker" Perhaps Branson would give her a job just to get one up on BA.!!?? Other Airlines would not touch her with a bargepole I suspect.

The late Roger Green from RAF Farnborough ( Chirps) once said that Airline Pilots only need to have the same Academic qualifications as a Primary School Teacher ie a couple of lowgrade A Levels.

Perhaps with her high Intellect Jess cannot stand the thought of working 100%??

Kirkwall Don't be silly. We are talking about Jess not Eileen.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Too many GCSE's to count
Four grade A a-levels
First class honours degree from Oxford
British Gliding champ
Probably the highest marks in Western Europe for her JAR Op exams
Extremeley competent pilot
Liked and respected by all those who have flown with her

These are all wonderful qualities and achievements, but without any demonstrated commitment to an employer, or any apparent knowledge of the meaning of 'work ethic', nobody will go far with any employer or prospective employer, in any industry.

[Justbelowcap]

Getting a job from the wilds of Dorset has nothing to do with her Intellect or Degree but the fact that she is labelled a "trouble maker" Perhaps Branson would give her a job just to get one up on BA.!!?? Other Airlines would not touch her with a bargepole I suspect.

What utter drivel! If nothing else Jess has the total respect of the BA management for standing her ground. A trouble maker for ensuring that she has the same rights as everybody else in the UK workforce.......please. Even PoD realises that BA is lucky to have Jess as an employee, although to be fair the vast majority of her cadet colleagues are all of the same calibre.

The law says she is entitled to percentage working.

BA have lost on this ground. They have then moved the goal posts by insisting that for somebody to have less than 2000 hrs this is not safe. Nobody would object to BA choosing their own levels of safety but this is an arbitary figure plucked out the air just because Jess has slightly less than this figure. In BA 1500 hours has always been the cut off point. To suddenly change this figure is almost obscene in it's arrogance.

The 50% working figure that Jess will fly will give her far more flying than 100% on the 747. Which she could easily transfer to if she so desired.

10 years ago cadets flying 100% on the airbus flew a lot less than Jess will fly on 50% now.

Cadets used to go striaght on to the Tristar and flew way, way less than Jess will fly.

This is not about safety (find ONE BA airbus trainer that will state publically that Jess would not be safe to fly a 50% contract. You can't because not one non-management trainer would agree to to make that statement.) it is simply that BA are trying to not allow Jess her legal rights because it will cost them money. She is entitled to those rights. Eventually she is paving the way for women and mothers to be able to have careers as pilots AND have a family. The law, and common sense, say that this is the way it should be for all employees. That includes pilots.

I pity the companies who think that the ability to work non-stop outways the ability to command an aircraft to the highest standards. These companies will pay the price if they employ "primary school teachers" instead of the most able individuals they can find. Unfortunately it will only be time before there is a major hull loss. Those responsible will have long gone, enjoying the vast fortunes made from stock options and bonus payments. Whilst some poor git will get the blame for failing to to do a job that he was probably never able to do since day one.

That is why the industry MUST keep employing those of the highest calibre. The less hand flying we do and the more automated the AC become the much more important it is that the truely able get selected. There is no time for practise anymore. The first time you deal with an aircraft that has no protections will be for real! That is why it is important that Jess wins. We need the most skilled people we can find in this industry. It simply cannot afford to overlook 50% of the population because they want to have a family.

[Roobarb]

This appeal has nothing to do with whether Jess is entitled to part-time, or whether BA is obliged to employ her.

This is all to do with PoD publicly losing face, and desparate to retsore some shred of credibilty in big-BA.

I hope he loses, and I hope he resigns.



I'll take on the opposition anyday - it's my management I can't beat!

[Re-Heat]

The late Roger Green from RAF Farnborough ( Chirps) once said that Airline Pilots only need to have the same Academic qualifications as a Primary School Teacher ie a couple of lowgrade A Levels.

All well and good, but if the intellect to understand the systems is lacking then - as in the past when the engineering knowledge was fundamental - systems failures will confound those not bright enough, however applied they are.

Both that - and indeed her motivation (though I somehow doubt that with her background) - are irrelevant. I agree again that BA have placed themselves in a hole due to trying to save money at the expense of work/life balance. All companies must equally share the burden of cost of the social rights that we all possess.

How many hours did MS - former LGW chief pilot - achieve before going to very low levels of flying and management? Was that deemed to be unsafe at the time? You know the answer - sanctioned by PD - and indeed the CAA.

[Kirkwall]

PoD resign.

Excellent. A great opportunity for the first woman to achieve status of GMFO in BA. There must be loads of them queueing up in the lower levels of managment just waiting to step into his shoes.

Aren't there??