Jessica Starmer - BALPA's view (Update - Appeal decision)
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Story from BBC NEWS:
Mrs Starmer may be "extremely disappointed" by the prospect of an appeal to the Court of Appeal, but surely she can't be surprised.
BA loses appeal in pilot sex case
British Airways (BA) has lost an appeal against a tribunal that found it had sexually discriminated against a pilot by refusing to let her work part-time.
Jessica Starmer, 26, from Wareham in Dorset, won a claim for indirect sex discrimination in April.
An appeal by BA was rejected at an Employment Appeal Tribunal on Thursday.
Ms Starmer wanted to cut her working hours in half to spend more time with her one-year-old daughter Beth.
BA said it was disappointed by the ruling. The firm has now submitted an application for leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal.
Mrs Starmer, who is expecting another baby and still works for BA, said: "I am pleased with the result but extremely disappointed that an appeal will leave me uncertain on how I am going to balance my parental responsibilities and career."
(Pic from BBC website)
BA had told the tribunal its original decision was based on safety, rather than gender. It said pilots should have at least 2,000 flying hours before reducing their working hours to below 75%.
BA told the appeal tribunal it had "huge concerns" about the approach of the original tribunal to safety and stressed it was sympathetic to people with childcare requirements.
The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa), which represented Ms Starmer, said it was "delighted" with the ruling. Captain Mervyn Granshaw, chairman of Balpa, said: "The appeal decision could not be clearer. Flight safety is not on trial in this case - an argument put forward by BA late in the day after Jessica's application for part time working so she could look after her young child was rejected by them."
Jenny Watson, acting chairwoman of the Equal Opportunities Commission, said: "The tribunal's decision is great news for millions of women in Britain juggling their careers with their responsibilities at home, too many of whom are denied from using their talents to the full."
Mrs Starmer currently works for BA on 75% hours. Her husband Simon is also a pilot with the airline.
Jessica Starmer, 26, from Wareham in Dorset, won a claim for indirect sex discrimination in April.
An appeal by BA was rejected at an Employment Appeal Tribunal on Thursday.
Ms Starmer wanted to cut her working hours in half to spend more time with her one-year-old daughter Beth.
BA said it was disappointed by the ruling. The firm has now submitted an application for leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal.
Mrs Starmer, who is expecting another baby and still works for BA, said: "I am pleased with the result but extremely disappointed that an appeal will leave me uncertain on how I am going to balance my parental responsibilities and career."
(Pic from BBC website)
BA had told the tribunal its original decision was based on safety, rather than gender. It said pilots should have at least 2,000 flying hours before reducing their working hours to below 75%.
BA told the appeal tribunal it had "huge concerns" about the approach of the original tribunal to safety and stressed it was sympathetic to people with childcare requirements.
The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa), which represented Ms Starmer, said it was "delighted" with the ruling. Captain Mervyn Granshaw, chairman of Balpa, said: "The appeal decision could not be clearer. Flight safety is not on trial in this case - an argument put forward by BA late in the day after Jessica's application for part time working so she could look after her young child was rejected by them."
Jenny Watson, acting chairwoman of the Equal Opportunities Commission, said: "The tribunal's decision is great news for millions of women in Britain juggling their careers with their responsibilities at home, too many of whom are denied from using their talents to the full."
Mrs Starmer currently works for BA on 75% hours. Her husband Simon is also a pilot with the airline.
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Godd on ya Jess. Fab news and great news for all BA workers. Hopefully the company will soon realise that the single greatest factor in their success are its people and NOT its shiny aircraft. Wake up BA.
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Buy one
I'd be surprised if the case is heard by the Court of Appeal this year. Early next year I suspect.
southside
I realise knocking BA at every opportunity is a popular sport in some quarters but, aren't you in the services? Royal Navy?
I'd be surprised if the case is heard by the Court of Appeal this year. Early next year I suspect.
southside
I realise knocking BA at every opportunity is a popular sport in some quarters but, aren't you in the services? Royal Navy?
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"The late Roger Green from RAF Farnborough ( Chirps) once said that Airline Pilots only need to have the same Academic qualifications as a Primary School Teacher ie a couple of lowgrade A Levels."
As someone who knew Roger more than most I feel that he would also have added that motivation, determination and dedication will need to be of a higher order than most other jobs.
Jessica may have taken one step further, but I'm afraid that I keep wondering how the latest appeal failure will affect all those other young ladies who are trying to get into the profession.
Many of them will have far inferior intellects to Ms Starmer but be able to demonstrate many other qualities that we find more valuable to this profession.
As someone who knew Roger more than most I feel that he would also have added that motivation, determination and dedication will need to be of a higher order than most other jobs.
Jessica may have taken one step further, but I'm afraid that I keep wondering how the latest appeal failure will affect all those other young ladies who are trying to get into the profession.
Many of them will have far inferior intellects to Ms Starmer but be able to demonstrate many other qualities that we find more valuable to this profession.
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justbelow cap,
you are a snob to allude to the fact that unless you are an oxford cadet ,oxford uni grad and a ba cadet you are not of the highest calibre. I have less than The primary school requirements but would gladly take up the gauntlet thrown down on this thread to go head to head with this woman in the sim.
There are many talented airline pilots about that dont have a scrap of education . Your criteria are not exhaustive but rather a means of extendeing elitism.
It will be one of your highly able systems operators that will be the weak link when the sh1t hits the fan.
What use the dreamy spires then.
countless gcse's....So what , she has a good memory and a stable upbringing that nurtured homework. All the advantages that english middle class life provides detract from ones achievements when they are the norm in your strata.
It is the relativity of the achievement that is important, not the baubles avilable to a minority of society.
Ba isnt lucky to have her, she is lucky to have such a good start to her life and if she cant be arsed with her career for now should move over.
Highest calibre my arse.
you are a snob to allude to the fact that unless you are an oxford cadet ,oxford uni grad and a ba cadet you are not of the highest calibre. I have less than The primary school requirements but would gladly take up the gauntlet thrown down on this thread to go head to head with this woman in the sim.
There are many talented airline pilots about that dont have a scrap of education . Your criteria are not exhaustive but rather a means of extendeing elitism.
It will be one of your highly able systems operators that will be the weak link when the sh1t hits the fan.
What use the dreamy spires then.
countless gcse's....So what , she has a good memory and a stable upbringing that nurtured homework. All the advantages that english middle class life provides detract from ones achievements when they are the norm in your strata.
It is the relativity of the achievement that is important, not the baubles avilable to a minority of society.
Ba isnt lucky to have her, she is lucky to have such a good start to her life and if she cant be arsed with her career for now should move over.
Highest calibre my arse.
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It will be one of your highly able systems operators that will be the weak link when the sh1t hits the fan.
DIRECTOR
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Justbelowcap seems to be in total awe of young Jess does he not?
If BA lose this then it is one more nail in the coffin of it's long term financial future. For those in BA who seem to think they have total protection and a job for life regardless of all that is going on around them are delusional in the extreme.
As others have said a "high intellect" without all the other add ons which she has obviously not got do not make " highest calibre" in my book.
When she eventually comes off maternity leave perhaps with all that has happened she will be "psychologically" scarred and not fit to fly?? Perhaps she could then sue BA for damages?
If BA lose this then it is one more nail in the coffin of it's long term financial future. For those in BA who seem to think they have total protection and a job for life regardless of all that is going on around them are delusional in the extreme.
As others have said a "high intellect" without all the other add ons which she has obviously not got do not make " highest calibre" in my book.
When she eventually comes off maternity leave perhaps with all that has happened she will be "psychologically" scarred and not fit to fly?? Perhaps she could then sue BA for damages?
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Aah another 'one more nail in the coffin' post. Regardless of the outcome of this case, BA still made a rather hefty profit last year and the doom-sayers who've been predicting it's demise since 9/11 are still facing dissappointment. The impact of changes in Flight Ops labour costs would barely be felt by corporate BA such is the vast cost of the other employee groups.
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Re Lou Scannon
Lou Scannon - How right you are!
Jess has demonstrated a huge lack of motivation (lets not forget that this is NOT about maternity leave - but complete lack of compromise on Jess's side of things).
Personally as a 26 year old female fATPL (without a current flying job) I feel rather miffed at her actions. Perhaps if she was bonded for the £60,000 BA have spent, her motivation would be a little better (or if she had self funded).
All the intelligence in the world, but Jess clearly has no knowledge (or appreciation) of commercial industry - other than the 'me, me, me' attitude.
I fear there is nothing I can do to improve my chances at interview against the stereotype Jess has now painted of female pilots.
a miffed GQ!
Jess has demonstrated a huge lack of motivation (lets not forget that this is NOT about maternity leave - but complete lack of compromise on Jess's side of things).
Personally as a 26 year old female fATPL (without a current flying job) I feel rather miffed at her actions. Perhaps if she was bonded for the £60,000 BA have spent, her motivation would be a little better (or if she had self funded).
All the intelligence in the world, but Jess clearly has no knowledge (or appreciation) of commercial industry - other than the 'me, me, me' attitude.
I fear there is nothing I can do to improve my chances at interview against the stereotype Jess has now painted of female pilots.
a miffed GQ!
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Hand solo,
I fail to see how my post is breathtakingly arrogant and the superior rantings of justbelowcap are not.
The arrogance is in your reply defending by association the bllocks written by justbelow.
I am aware of my limitations whereas if the superior attitude touted by previous posters is anything to go by that doenst apply to the BA cadets, as they are all superior and not in need of currency and experience.
Hand job would be a more fitting name for you.
I fail to see how my post is breathtakingly arrogant and the superior rantings of justbelowcap are not.
The arrogance is in your reply defending by association the bllocks written by justbelow.
I am aware of my limitations whereas if the superior attitude touted by previous posters is anything to go by that doenst apply to the BA cadets, as they are all superior and not in need of currency and experience.
Hand job would be a more fitting name for you.
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I think you'll find I've made no attempt to defend anyone elses comments. I merely pointed out your post suggested a personal belief that you were immune to being the weak link in the chain that you believe the 'highly skiled systems operator' is so likely to be. If you are well aware of your limitations then I doubt you'd be so willing to throw stones around in the glasshouse.
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Well said QG. It is a silly situation. Equal opportunities for all of course but you've got to EARN your spurs in this game-that comes from experience and THAT comes from DOING the job! I don't care how good your degree is-it means zip if you can't/won't fly
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So lets see: She trains as an airline pilot @ approx 60,000 cost to BA. She does just enough flying to find and marry a suitable BA captain. Promptly becomes pregnant and stops work on full pay. Gives birth to first child, and rapidly becomes pregnant again. Without ever intending to do a days work she requests 50% working from BA and then takes them to an industrial tribunal when they refuse. Will be off work on full pay for another 9 months for the second baby. How long can she keep this scam going? What if she has another 3 or 4 babies? If this is the way sex discrimination law works then something is seriously wrong.
MG
MG
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Purely as a point of information I'd like to address this comment:
Every penny of that will be paid back to BA through the combination of a reduced salary and direct repayment from that reduced salary. Lets not pretend the training is a great act of benevolence from BA to help the greater flying community. It's a carefully considered business proposition that gets them qualified pilots at a lower cost than any other means. If it wasn't then they wouldn't do it, would they?
She trains as an airline pilot @ approx 60,000 cost to BA
Just a numbered other
Every penny of that will be paid back to BA through the combination of a reduced salary and direct repayment from that reduced salary.
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Women will always want to have babies and, although not a PC view, in many cases bringing up children will be a lot more fun for the mother (and her children) than going to work and having to mix with, work with, do the bidding of, etc., of others whose only real aim is to get better paid as quickly as possible. A lot of these 'career-minded' people will step on as many other as possible to reach their goals, or other insidious acts.
Any employer who doesn't realise that has a serious reality problem and will continually complain about his/her staff leaving to have children.
This is life - why are flight-deck any different? The lady has made her choices all along the way and, by going 50% freed up another 50% for someone else as a bonus. She may retire eventually without having made the dizzy heights of whatever but hopefully will be pleased with her family- and so will her husband and children. She may wish she hadn't then.... but how many women forego children and wish they hadn't ?
As for those who complain she had too easy a start in life - communism still exists in places where almost noone is allowed to fly aeroplanes. Would anyone put up with the CAA hoops and every other mind-bending trick designed to weed out as many potential pilots as possible if it were not for the opportunity to earn a reasonable wage while having more fun than sitting at a desk/working down a mine/being a lifeguard ?
Good luck to her and her family.
Any employer who doesn't realise that has a serious reality problem and will continually complain about his/her staff leaving to have children.
This is life - why are flight-deck any different? The lady has made her choices all along the way and, by going 50% freed up another 50% for someone else as a bonus. She may retire eventually without having made the dizzy heights of whatever but hopefully will be pleased with her family- and so will her husband and children. She may wish she hadn't then.... but how many women forego children and wish they hadn't ?
As for those who complain she had too easy a start in life - communism still exists in places where almost noone is allowed to fly aeroplanes. Would anyone put up with the CAA hoops and every other mind-bending trick designed to weed out as many potential pilots as possible if it were not for the opportunity to earn a reasonable wage while having more fun than sitting at a desk/working down a mine/being a lifeguard ?
Good luck to her and her family.
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Hand Solo
Not strictly true. She will be paying back (£250 before tax) per month towards the £15,000 officially owed. However if you are 50% part time, the amount you pay back from being on the cadet scale compared to the DEP scale, will be halved (because the difference between the two 50% scales is halved). This is compounded by the fact that BA will only be getting half the benefit of your skills, because you are doing half the work.
If BA's concern was purely safety, then I agree with them. However, it seems that the courts do not believe this stance.
Women have babies, and it is not right in this day and age to force a woman to choose between career or baby. Personally I think it is best for the child, that they do make this choice - but it is not right to force them to.
Every penny of that will be paid back to BA through the combination of a reduced salary and direct repayment from that reduced salary.
If BA's concern was purely safety, then I agree with them. However, it seems that the courts do not believe this stance.
Women have babies, and it is not right in this day and age to force a woman to choose between career or baby. Personally I think it is best for the child, that they do make this choice - but it is not right to force them to.
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The real sad thing that seems to have been lost in this whole arguement, is a sense of compromise, and resolution. To often today parties on both sides run to the lawyers to solve the issue rather than sitting down face to face and resolving it.
Now Im not saying that this case has followed that path, but it seems there has been a lack of objective judgement shown by both parties.
BA seem to have come to the table with a clear, and yet strangely muddled game plan. Jess on the other hand has played both the role of victim and then latterly the boastful (in a sense) victor.
What really saddens me, and GQ alluded to this; is the negative impact this will have on HR departments view to training and recruiting female aircrew as they will now be viewd as a poor return on investment, I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Now Im not saying that this case has followed that path, but it seems there has been a lack of objective judgement shown by both parties.
BA seem to have come to the table with a clear, and yet strangely muddled game plan. Jess on the other hand has played both the role of victim and then latterly the boastful (in a sense) victor.
What really saddens me, and GQ alluded to this; is the negative impact this will have on HR departments view to training and recruiting female aircrew as they will now be viewd as a poor return on investment, I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg.