O'Leary going to Jail?
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411A
The US airline market pre and post 9/11 is very different to the UK market.
We have never had the serioulsy highly paid pilots/out of control costs like the major carriers in the US.
The airlines in the US had/have to make serius costs cuts in order to stay in business (chapter 11 not withstanding!).
In the UK after the initial blip post 9/11 the UK airlines (which were already pretty lean) are just trying to maximise profits.
The unions are not as useless as you suggest, they have successfully managed to stop alot of companies from taking the you know what.
Your CX argument is disingenuous, we do have labour laws (unlike HK) and only a very foolish management would sack anybody for just being a "troublemaker". They would be taken to a tribunal, and I would imagine that the union will pay for the representation.
If you want evidence of this, just look at the recent BA case with the airbus fo who wanted to go part time.
The US airline market pre and post 9/11 is very different to the UK market.
We have never had the serioulsy highly paid pilots/out of control costs like the major carriers in the US.
The airlines in the US had/have to make serius costs cuts in order to stay in business (chapter 11 not withstanding!).
In the UK after the initial blip post 9/11 the UK airlines (which were already pretty lean) are just trying to maximise profits.
The unions are not as useless as you suggest, they have successfully managed to stop alot of companies from taking the you know what.
Your CX argument is disingenuous, we do have labour laws (unlike HK) and only a very foolish management would sack anybody for just being a "troublemaker". They would be taken to a tribunal, and I would imagine that the union will pay for the representation.
If you want evidence of this, just look at the recent BA case with the airbus fo who wanted to go part time.
Last edited by fmgc; 23rd Apr 2005 at 17:26.
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Capt.Peacock/ 411A...you both have it wrong.
I don't consider myself to be a privileged professional! All THAT ever gave me was a few gold stripes on my sleeve, and a warm fuzzy feeling inside. Load of BOLLOX, as O'Leary would say.
Nah. I'm a WORKER. And a goddamn SOCIALIST at that. The only Gold I want now is that which is deposited in my backpocket.
All else is simply vanity.
The poor buggers in the US, or EK, or CX lack one thing...a SOCIALIST system, and the social contract that accompanies it.
I have rights, enshrined in law. They don't.
Tough.
I'm gonna protect my rights, and I don't give a damn what the public, 411A, or anyone else says about it.
Simple fact is - they'd do the same thing, and so does O'Leary.
And - I've been doing it VERY succesfully.
I'm earning twice what I was before 9-11.
Come on Peacock...drop the pretence, the old days are gone, and you don't have to feel guilty about it, its dog eat dog now...come down off your high horse, get down here and get your hands dirty like the rest of us.
Workers of the world unite!!
I don't consider myself to be a privileged professional! All THAT ever gave me was a few gold stripes on my sleeve, and a warm fuzzy feeling inside. Load of BOLLOX, as O'Leary would say.
Nah. I'm a WORKER. And a goddamn SOCIALIST at that. The only Gold I want now is that which is deposited in my backpocket.
All else is simply vanity.
The poor buggers in the US, or EK, or CX lack one thing...a SOCIALIST system, and the social contract that accompanies it.
I have rights, enshrined in law. They don't.
Tough.
I'm gonna protect my rights, and I don't give a damn what the public, 411A, or anyone else says about it.
Simple fact is - they'd do the same thing, and so does O'Leary.
And - I've been doing it VERY succesfully.
I'm earning twice what I was before 9-11.
Come on Peacock...drop the pretence, the old days are gone, and you don't have to feel guilty about it, its dog eat dog now...come down off your high horse, get down here and get your hands dirty like the rest of us.
Workers of the world unite!!
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All too easy...
<<They would be taken to a tribunal, and I would imagine that the union will pay for the representation.>>
Sadly, fmgc, it really is all to easy.
They could just as well be dismissed for failing a PC.
If the company is serious enough, they will find a way, and the results may not be pleasant.
<<We have never had the serioulsy highly paid pilots/out of control costs like the major carriers in the US.>>
Welcome to the real world.
Look at fuel costs. Do you really believe that these are not higher costs that put the squeeze on the bottom line?
Line pilots generally only look at what is in their pay packet, not what the real costs are, for the airline.
Nav fees, landing fees, terminal rents....the list goes on and on, yet the passenger wants the absolute lowest price for the ticket, and it would appear that a few carriers are up to the task.
And then again...some aren't.
A little blip in the British economy and a few airlines might well fall like dominos.
Has happened before.
Gee, what a surprise.
Sadly, fmgc, it really is all to easy.
They could just as well be dismissed for failing a PC.
If the company is serious enough, they will find a way, and the results may not be pleasant.
<<We have never had the serioulsy highly paid pilots/out of control costs like the major carriers in the US.>>
Welcome to the real world.
Look at fuel costs. Do you really believe that these are not higher costs that put the squeeze on the bottom line?
Line pilots generally only look at what is in their pay packet, not what the real costs are, for the airline.
Nav fees, landing fees, terminal rents....the list goes on and on, yet the passenger wants the absolute lowest price for the ticket, and it would appear that a few carriers are up to the task.
And then again...some aren't.
A little blip in the British economy and a few airlines might well fall like dominos.
Has happened before.
Gee, what a surprise.
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Capt H Peacock, having seen the procedures which are applied to FR employees, I am pleased with the fact that I am not exposed to these unacceptable situations anymore.
The environment I am enjoying now is shared with some former FR colleagues and none of them wants to come close to MOL again.
As a matter of fact, yesterday I flew a full aeroplane of Irish tourists to their sunny vacation and while having a chat with some of the passengers after the flight, I had to smile when I was told that MOL should apologize to the Irish people for his attitude and moving Irish reputation into extreme disrespect.
The environment I am enjoying now is shared with some former FR colleagues and none of them wants to come close to MOL again.
As a matter of fact, yesterday I flew a full aeroplane of Irish tourists to their sunny vacation and while having a chat with some of the passengers after the flight, I had to smile when I was told that MOL should apologize to the Irish people for his attitude and moving Irish reputation into extreme disrespect.
Doubtless the little beggar will somehow escape being slung into jail; however, he and his business methods are clearly the unacceptable face of capitalism in Ireland. Many Irish people are heartily sick of the foul-mouthed and belligerent way in which he behaves, giving the false impression that business practices in Ireland haven't yet emerged from the Dark Age.
Saw one of Micks 737s at FDH last week with "Nein zum Lufthansa Kerosinzuschlag" painted in huge letters down the side. That means "No to Lufthansa fuel surcharge" - which I'm sure means absolutely nothing to the people his airline flies. In any case, the LH fuel surcharge is not being introduced within Europe or on any route on which Ryanair might think that they compete with LH, so perhaps LH should take Mick to court over such lfalse claims?
Saw one of Micks 737s at FDH last week with "Nein zum Lufthansa Kerosinzuschlag" painted in huge letters down the side. That means "No to Lufthansa fuel surcharge" - which I'm sure means absolutely nothing to the people his airline flies. In any case, the LH fuel surcharge is not being introduced within Europe or on any route on which Ryanair might think that they compete with LH, so perhaps LH should take Mick to court over such lfalse claims?
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Well, Capt Peacock and 411A,
I must agree in general with what you say. It was definitely a different world a few years back. And, perhaps, a better one. I know flying was more fun for sure.
Certainly respect was more plentiful and more obvious, as was genune friendliness. I mean respect for people, for those who work for you and with you and make you wealthy. Read that one how you like.
As for Maxalt, well, let me tell you squire, I am glad that I never needed to work for an airline that I was ashamed of. I was proud to be with the ones which employed me. I would certainly not write the way some people write, even if I felt that way. Can't see what politics has to do with it either.
Not so sure I would feel all that proud about working for Ryanair, charging pax for wheelchairs. That does bite me, I admit. If you know the world of the wheelchair user, your attitude on life is markedly different from "normal people", believe me mate.
I deliberately suppress wicked thoughts ....
As for O'Leary going to prison, forget it. My expert opinion (2nd hand from a human rights lawyer) is that he can claim the damage to FR would be immense if he were to do some chookie and the judge would be obliged to consider that as an important social factor.
So don't hold yer breath eh !
That feels better.
oTd
I must agree in general with what you say. It was definitely a different world a few years back. And, perhaps, a better one. I know flying was more fun for sure.
Certainly respect was more plentiful and more obvious, as was genune friendliness. I mean respect for people, for those who work for you and with you and make you wealthy. Read that one how you like.
As for Maxalt, well, let me tell you squire, I am glad that I never needed to work for an airline that I was ashamed of. I was proud to be with the ones which employed me. I would certainly not write the way some people write, even if I felt that way. Can't see what politics has to do with it either.
Not so sure I would feel all that proud about working for Ryanair, charging pax for wheelchairs. That does bite me, I admit. If you know the world of the wheelchair user, your attitude on life is markedly different from "normal people", believe me mate.
I deliberately suppress wicked thoughts ....
As for O'Leary going to prison, forget it. My expert opinion (2nd hand from a human rights lawyer) is that he can claim the damage to FR would be immense if he were to do some chookie and the judge would be obliged to consider that as an important social factor.
So don't hold yer breath eh !
That feels better.
oTd
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As for O'Leary going to prison, forget it. My expert opinion (2nd hand from a human rights lawyer) is that he can claim the damage to FR would be immense if he were to do some chookie and the judge would be obliged to consider that as an important social factor.
The reality is that he can easily purge his contempt, possibly by an apology, possibly via other means (perhaps a fine). Prison only comes in if he keeps up his behaviour and even MOL knows that the courts are not for his verbal gymnastics or threats.
The issue comes back to this: will the courts determine that there was contempt, or not? We will know the answer later this the week. We also know that Ryanair will spin this as positively as they can, no matter what the outcome.
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You've got to admit when it comes to Court cases MOL seems to loose most of them; is anyone keeping a score card?
He doesn't by any chance won a 3 legged dog called Lucky?
He doesn't by any chance won a 3 legged dog called Lucky?
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He will not go to jail.
If he loses this case.
The Judge will most likley give him one last chance to pruge his contempt.
No prizes for guessing what he will do.
If he loses this case.
The Judge will most likley give him one last chance to pruge his contempt.
No prizes for guessing what he will do.
Last edited by Lionel Hutz; 10th May 2005 at 21:06.
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It is not nonsense at all
atse,
OK,
You make a good point, but my point, as a non-legal quoting a legal, is that he will definitely not go to prison (in the remote chance he is found guilty of course). The world does not work like that.
Unfortunately, I know this is true.
Just imagine thousands of screaming FR pax (don't even think of crews and other employees) all wailing "Injustice, Injustice". What a wonderful opportunity for the UK press …………… fill in the gaps.
Do we have judges with this sort of moral courage ???
Don't even think of answering.
My point was that he could make a (very good and sound*) claim that the effects of his imprisonment would be so great as to affect negatively mega innocent people. “The greater good of the greater number" before which, principles collapse. And that is the way the world turns these days, my friend, principles have no place.
‘Twas ever thus.
I respectfully request your honour to weight my views with care no disrespect intended.
Irish justice shall prevail !!!
OTd, a bit baffled by the legalese.
* I would need to take legal advice to explain this.
OK,
You make a good point, but my point, as a non-legal quoting a legal, is that he will definitely not go to prison (in the remote chance he is found guilty of course). The world does not work like that.
Unfortunately, I know this is true.
Just imagine thousands of screaming FR pax (don't even think of crews and other employees) all wailing "Injustice, Injustice". What a wonderful opportunity for the UK press …………… fill in the gaps.
Do we have judges with this sort of moral courage ???
Don't even think of answering.
My point was that he could make a (very good and sound*) claim that the effects of his imprisonment would be so great as to affect negatively mega innocent people. “The greater good of the greater number" before which, principles collapse. And that is the way the world turns these days, my friend, principles have no place.
‘Twas ever thus.
I respectfully request your honour to weight my views with care no disrespect intended.
Irish justice shall prevail !!!
OTd, a bit baffled by the legalese.
* I would need to take legal advice to explain this.
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o T d. I think your post speaks more to some personal experience or attitudes than is does to the facts as we know them.
The imprisionment notions all come from the intitial press reports. But the possibility of imprisonment is independent of being found guilty. In fact, Ryanair's history of "innocence" when it gets to court - or the steps of the court - is not good.
Of course you are right about imprisonment. I agree that it is highly unlikely (but as explained above this is for different and more mundance reasons that you seem to believe).
But I beg to differ on the being found guilty - "a remote chance" you say. Reading between the lines of the press reports I am much inclined to believe that they have been caught offside. My expectation is that there will be a guilty finding and that there will be an apology to the court.
And THAT that is what matters. Let's just wait and see.
The imprisionment notions all come from the intitial press reports. But the possibility of imprisonment is independent of being found guilty. In fact, Ryanair's history of "innocence" when it gets to court - or the steps of the court - is not good.
Of course you are right about imprisonment. I agree that it is highly unlikely (but as explained above this is for different and more mundance reasons that you seem to believe).
But I beg to differ on the being found guilty - "a remote chance" you say. Reading between the lines of the press reports I am much inclined to believe that they have been caught offside. My expectation is that there will be a guilty finding and that there will be an apology to the court.
And THAT that is what matters. Let's just wait and see.
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Aren't there some countries where, if one has ever been knicked for a criminal offence (even if the conviction is spent), one finds it mighty tough to get a visa?
Further, in some industries, those with criminal records are sometimes seen as being not fit-and-proper persons for such-&-such.
Contempt is a criminal offence, so even if one is convicted but let off with a fine, one is, by definition, a convicted criminal.
As a result, if one is found guilty at all, could this not have some deleterious effect on one's ability to act as an officer of a listed, multinational corporation?
Hence, could this not have the social effect mentioned, even without a custodial sentence? That said, whilst MOL certainly is seen as the face of FR, surely (like any responsible corporation) they would have management succession plans in place? Not to do so may indeed be seen as negligent for such a large company.
Please note that I am NOT Ryanair-bashing by these comments, rather posting real questions which have come to mind.
TD67
Further, in some industries, those with criminal records are sometimes seen as being not fit-and-proper persons for such-&-such.
Contempt is a criminal offence, so even if one is convicted but let off with a fine, one is, by definition, a convicted criminal.
As a result, if one is found guilty at all, could this not have some deleterious effect on one's ability to act as an officer of a listed, multinational corporation?
Hence, could this not have the social effect mentioned, even without a custodial sentence? That said, whilst MOL certainly is seen as the face of FR, surely (like any responsible corporation) they would have management succession plans in place? Not to do so may indeed be seen as negligent for such a large company.
Please note that I am NOT Ryanair-bashing by these comments, rather posting real questions which have come to mind.
TD67
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ou Trek Donkie,
Not wanting to get at you but what case could MOL bring that his imprisonment would cause undue problems for either FR or its customers?
I am sure that were MOL to be knocked down by a bus on the way home tonight nothing much would change (apart from the announcement of a national holiday in ROI by way of celebration).
MOL is like any other individual employee at FR, dispensible.
That is not to say that any employees at FR are worthless, simply mentioning that were any other single employee to be sentenced to "porridge" FR would continue on without them.
Therefore I cannot see a case for allowing him to sidestep the "bird" on these grounds. Yet again I am not a lawyer and deal, mostly, in common sense.
Cheers
BHR
Not wanting to get at you but what case could MOL bring that his imprisonment would cause undue problems for either FR or its customers?
I am sure that were MOL to be knocked down by a bus on the way home tonight nothing much would change (apart from the announcement of a national holiday in ROI by way of celebration).
MOL is like any other individual employee at FR, dispensible.
That is not to say that any employees at FR are worthless, simply mentioning that were any other single employee to be sentenced to "porridge" FR would continue on without them.
Therefore I cannot see a case for allowing him to sidestep the "bird" on these grounds. Yet again I am not a lawyer and deal, mostly, in common sense.
Cheers
BHR
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atse,
You make a good post. All I know about FR is 2nd hand, sounds like you have some hands-on experience.
I know nothing at all about Ryanair courtroom steps settlements, but are these not usually a result of a person toughing it out against the heavies ? And coming right in the end ? True, I have been there, but that has nothing at all to do with my post.
My life experience is that expediency is usually the name of the game in legal matters. The reluctance to rock the boat, the reluctance to support the whistle-blower, the way someone who stands up against injustice is often deserted by his or her friends (check the EC fraud history for example). The name Tony Blair springs readily to mind. Remember the ANZ DC 10 flying into Mt Erebus in Antartica ?
So maybe that is what you refer to ? On the ball man.
Yet I have no facts in this matter, just what I read and my own prejudice.
Nevertheless, if he is found guilty – and I hope he is : if indeed he is guilty, then, I am sure he will not go to serve time. His lawyers will be far too smart for that. If he is innocent, of course I hope he goes free.
Probably they are on a no-win-no-fee basis anyway, if Ryanair commercial practices are also in force. I wonder if they charge for coffee ?
Thanks for you comments, illuminating.
Well Bill,
If he were knocked down, that is entirely different. By the way, I wish the man no personal harm.
No, what I meant to say is that, if he were to be found guilty, the most likely argument his lawyers would offer – this is a legal opinion (there will be others) – is that the public interest would not be served by committing him to prison. The effect on jobs, loss of confidence etc. It could swing it for him you know. His airline brings a lot of € to Ireland.
I remember the case of the footballer (forget his name) who attacked someone on an aircraft and got a community sentence ? He should have been sent down, so I believe, but he has the eye and ear of the public. A slap on the wrist. That does seem to me to be the tendency, not to send people to jail, but to “re-habilitate” them.
Lets face it. Many people idolise this person, they think he is wonderful. Now, if I had my way, I would h*** d*** and q****** him, but then, I come from another planet.
Sure, no-one is dispensable, but some people are more important than others.
I don’t think I said that “any employees at FR are worthless”. That would be wicked. I can easily understand the pressures they work under, believe me.
Like you, I am not anything like a lawyer and I believe I have a little common sense. But that is not the law. The Law is an ass, said someone.
oTd
You make a good post. All I know about FR is 2nd hand, sounds like you have some hands-on experience.
I know nothing at all about Ryanair courtroom steps settlements, but are these not usually a result of a person toughing it out against the heavies ? And coming right in the end ? True, I have been there, but that has nothing at all to do with my post.
My life experience is that expediency is usually the name of the game in legal matters. The reluctance to rock the boat, the reluctance to support the whistle-blower, the way someone who stands up against injustice is often deserted by his or her friends (check the EC fraud history for example). The name Tony Blair springs readily to mind. Remember the ANZ DC 10 flying into Mt Erebus in Antartica ?
So maybe that is what you refer to ? On the ball man.
Yet I have no facts in this matter, just what I read and my own prejudice.
Nevertheless, if he is found guilty – and I hope he is : if indeed he is guilty, then, I am sure he will not go to serve time. His lawyers will be far too smart for that. If he is innocent, of course I hope he goes free.
Probably they are on a no-win-no-fee basis anyway, if Ryanair commercial practices are also in force. I wonder if they charge for coffee ?
Thanks for you comments, illuminating.
Well Bill,
If he were knocked down, that is entirely different. By the way, I wish the man no personal harm.
No, what I meant to say is that, if he were to be found guilty, the most likely argument his lawyers would offer – this is a legal opinion (there will be others) – is that the public interest would not be served by committing him to prison. The effect on jobs, loss of confidence etc. It could swing it for him you know. His airline brings a lot of € to Ireland.
I remember the case of the footballer (forget his name) who attacked someone on an aircraft and got a community sentence ? He should have been sent down, so I believe, but he has the eye and ear of the public. A slap on the wrist. That does seem to me to be the tendency, not to send people to jail, but to “re-habilitate” them.
Lets face it. Many people idolise this person, they think he is wonderful. Now, if I had my way, I would h*** d*** and q****** him, but then, I come from another planet.
Sure, no-one is dispensable, but some people are more important than others.
I don’t think I said that “any employees at FR are worthless”. That would be wicked. I can easily understand the pressures they work under, believe me.
Like you, I am not anything like a lawyer and I believe I have a little common sense. But that is not the law. The Law is an ass, said someone.
oTd
