Pilot rebels against security check
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b200 in an another forum on the same incident has an excellent suggestion:
We all collectively hand in our id's, as they seem to be worthless anyway, and that way we'll have to be escorted the plane.
We all collectively hand in our id's, as they seem to be worthless anyway, and that way we'll have to be escorted the plane.
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I know what I'd have done.
I wouldn't argue. I'd just smile sweetly and then I would've turned around, gone straight to the coffee shop, ordered a moccachino, picked up the mobile phone and informed crew control that security had refused me access to the aircraft, and would they please call the reserve. Or sort out the security guy.
I've used this little tweak a few times already, in various annoying scenarios, and its amazing what gets done when it becomes THEIR problem instead of YOURS.
I wouldn't argue. I'd just smile sweetly and then I would've turned around, gone straight to the coffee shop, ordered a moccachino, picked up the mobile phone and informed crew control that security had refused me access to the aircraft, and would they please call the reserve. Or sort out the security guy.
I've used this little tweak a few times already, in various annoying scenarios, and its amazing what gets done when it becomes THEIR problem instead of YOURS.
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It is worth remembering that a thorough search of crew members at security is not an insult to the crew member concerned. As long as the whole world knows we are at least as thoroughly searched as passengers, the ungodly will know there is no point in holding our families hostage to make us carry stuff airside for them. If you think of the security staff as "the people who help protect my family" it makes it easier to enthusiastically cooperate with them.
In the case of the (thankfully rare, in my experience) abusive bully, maxalt's solution seems the best...
In the case of the (thankfully rare, in my experience) abusive bully, maxalt's solution seems the best...
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I hope no-one minds a lowly Wannabe posting a reply here.
I went to Heathrow a couple of months ago for a flight.
I work as a Prison Officer in Kent.
I was rubbed down which consisted of someone touching the sides of my stomach and my hips.
I asked quite politely "what is the point of doing a rub down search if no attempt was made to do it properly"
The guy threatened me with arrest which I found quite amusing then told me that he was doing it the way that he was shown.
I'm sure that we all see the need for security but it must be adequate but performed to a high standard.
I do feel that the security industry can attract some people that want to be Police Officers but the Police won't accept them.
Regards
Nick.
I went to Heathrow a couple of months ago for a flight.
I work as a Prison Officer in Kent.
I was rubbed down which consisted of someone touching the sides of my stomach and my hips.
I asked quite politely "what is the point of doing a rub down search if no attempt was made to do it properly"
The guy threatened me with arrest which I found quite amusing then told me that he was doing it the way that he was shown.
I'm sure that we all see the need for security but it must be adequate but performed to a high standard.
I do feel that the security industry can attract some people that want to be Police Officers but the Police won't accept them.
Regards
Nick.
Forewarned is Forearmed
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Security checks are a matter of routine for me as for a lot of you out there, as part of my job (Bird Hazard Control) I often think it is a bit odd as they search you for any form of a weapon at the gate before allowing you airside, then when you are airside, you have access to various Lethal devices which are essential tools of the trade, to protect airsafety.
Although there have been rare instances when some Security staff have appeared to have, their own set of power crazed rules, my response to this is to take down their ID details, which you should be entitled to ask for in exchange for yours.
Then forward a complaint, with them to the relevant authority which is responsible for them, if need be the Goverment dept. through your company.
The key thing is not to get into a slanging match with them on the spot even when it is very tempting to do so
Although there have been rare instances when some Security staff have appeared to have, their own set of power crazed rules, my response to this is to take down their ID details, which you should be entitled to ask for in exchange for yours.
Then forward a complaint, with them to the relevant authority which is responsible for them, if need be the Goverment dept. through your company.
The key thing is not to get into a slanging match with them on the spot even when it is very tempting to do so
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Like the Israelis, who know a thing or two about these things, have repeatedly pointed out: We're looking for objects, when we should be looking for people.
If airport security would spend half as much time making sure that we really are who we say we are, as they do digging through our personal items, we might actually accomplish something.
If airport security would spend half as much time making sure that we really are who we say we are, as they do digging through our personal items, we might actually accomplish something.
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If airport security would spend half as much time making sure that we really are who we say we are, as they do digging through our personal items, we might actually accomplish something.
No point me doing anything as, previously stated, I've never had such issues or problems with security personnel. I've treated them with politeness and respect and for some bizarre reason have been treated the same in return as a result.
at least try to spell it correctly! You might look a bit of a t*** otherwise!!
eel401
There was a degree of sarcasm, of course (typing slowly to avoid spelling errors!)
The primary purpose of the post was to highlight what may have been meant as an innocent expression, but I thought could easily be perceived as supremely arrogant and not a particularly savoury impression of how pilots regard themselves (bearing in mind the range of viewers to these forums).
The response:
"these ex-con, Police Academy, Wannabe, Rent-a-Cop nazis and the slightly better-educated white-collar pilots over whom they enjoy holding 30 seconds of power"
did not exactly dispell this impression, further enhanced by a personal insult about my stature, endowment and size of operating type (BTW what's an 'airplane'? is it like an aeroplane but spelt strangely?)
It was meant to try and restore a sense of humility, but obviously that's too tall an order.
Oh well, enjoy yourselves!
The primary purpose of the post was to highlight what may have been meant as an innocent expression, but I thought could easily be perceived as supremely arrogant and not a particularly savoury impression of how pilots regard themselves (bearing in mind the range of viewers to these forums).
The response:
"these ex-con, Police Academy, Wannabe, Rent-a-Cop nazis and the slightly better-educated white-collar pilots over whom they enjoy holding 30 seconds of power"
did not exactly dispell this impression, further enhanced by a personal insult about my stature, endowment and size of operating type (BTW what's an 'airplane'? is it like an aeroplane but spelt strangely?)
It was meant to try and restore a sense of humility, but obviously that's too tall an order.
Oh well, enjoy yourselves!
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Who cares about the range of viewers on this forum and their sensitivities? Is that your after-the-fact excuse? A shrink might have the answers you seek.
"Aeroplane"... hehe. How delightfully quaint and Olde Worlde!! I like it.
eel's complaint about the spelling of his own name confirms that sarchasm (the gulf between the facetious comment and the person who doesn't detect it) is, indeed, difficult to span in this medium.
I notice you've gravitated toward another R&N thread on crew/moron status. Weird...... or is it eccentric???
Boring. You guys can finish this fascinating thread on your own.
PS: I had a re-think. I think mightiness is achieved with First Solo.
"Aeroplane"... hehe. How delightfully quaint and Olde Worlde!! I like it.
eel's complaint about the spelling of his own name confirms that sarchasm (the gulf between the facetious comment and the person who doesn't detect it) is, indeed, difficult to span in this medium.
I notice you've gravitated toward another R&N thread on crew/moron status. Weird...... or is it eccentric???
Boring. You guys can finish this fascinating thread on your own.
PS: I had a re-think. I think mightiness is achieved with First Solo.
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I always wondered why they bothered searching the birdy.
They search him take his manacure set off him, then he goes out in a 4 wheel drive armed with shotguns and pyro's.
I think the idea of going to the coffee shop is the best one yet. Although i must admit I would have just laughted and ask to be searched the first time because it would seem the security chap intended that to happen from the outset. And it always seems to take the wind out of there sails when they realise you actually don't give a toss and find the whole thing boring.
MJ
They search him take his manacure set off him, then he goes out in a 4 wheel drive armed with shotguns and pyro's.
I think the idea of going to the coffee shop is the best one yet. Although i must admit I would have just laughted and ask to be searched the first time because it would seem the security chap intended that to happen from the outset. And it always seems to take the wind out of there sails when they realise you actually don't give a toss and find the whole thing boring.
MJ
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Bigmouth, spot on!
About a year ago I was going through the security process at Tel Aviv as flight crew.
At the last check point I was asked if I had any prohibited items. I told the lady that I had a Swiss Army Knife in my flight kit. She said OK and ran my flight kit through xray.
She then told me that since I was flight crew that I could keep my knife.
What a concept!
Check 6
"Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on guard, first off is lead."
About a year ago I was going through the security process at Tel Aviv as flight crew.
At the last check point I was asked if I had any prohibited items. I told the lady that I had a Swiss Army Knife in my flight kit. She said OK and ran my flight kit through xray.
She then told me that since I was flight crew that I could keep my knife.
What a concept!
Check 6
"Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on guard, first off is lead."
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While I understand the need for security for all, including pilots.
The difference is in the attitude as many have mentioned.
Personally I find the Aussies the most officious to the point of rude, this goes for their customs too.
I was hassled by this short, fat security guy, with a goaty beard who would look more at home as a bouncer outside a strip bar.
He made me walk through the screener 3 times. The last time without my hands in my pockets. I havnt had that before, but by holding a knife in your hand while walking through the scanner, supposedly the knife will not be detected, or was it an ego trip by a small minded bouncer.
It was more his attitude that annoyed me than anything else.
Occasionally if I get annoyed I do point out that I dont need an inch long nail file attached to nail clippers to hijack the aircraft, as i'm the pilot, I could fly it into any building I wished if I was so inclined. Also I have an axe behind me, I could use a metal fork that all paxs are given for meals, or I could smash a wine bottle to make a dangerous weapon. All these are far more threatening than the inch long nile file the Aussies are breaking off.
They are also the only country I know who require you to take youre laptop out of its bag to scan. Is every other country in the world slack, do the Aussies have old equipment, or are they been prats.
I can imagine the lawsuits when these new scanners come in. These security types that will be using them dont seem mature enough to be able to use them without schoolboy humor. How long until these naked scan photos end up on the internet, or handed around the tea room. Especially celebs. Way over the top. The airport and security will have huge lawsuits against them, and quite rightly so.
Now where to buy that penal extension kit.
The difference is in the attitude as many have mentioned.
Personally I find the Aussies the most officious to the point of rude, this goes for their customs too.
I was hassled by this short, fat security guy, with a goaty beard who would look more at home as a bouncer outside a strip bar.
He made me walk through the screener 3 times. The last time without my hands in my pockets. I havnt had that before, but by holding a knife in your hand while walking through the scanner, supposedly the knife will not be detected, or was it an ego trip by a small minded bouncer.
It was more his attitude that annoyed me than anything else.
Occasionally if I get annoyed I do point out that I dont need an inch long nail file attached to nail clippers to hijack the aircraft, as i'm the pilot, I could fly it into any building I wished if I was so inclined. Also I have an axe behind me, I could use a metal fork that all paxs are given for meals, or I could smash a wine bottle to make a dangerous weapon. All these are far more threatening than the inch long nile file the Aussies are breaking off.
They are also the only country I know who require you to take youre laptop out of its bag to scan. Is every other country in the world slack, do the Aussies have old equipment, or are they been prats.
I can imagine the lawsuits when these new scanners come in. These security types that will be using them dont seem mature enough to be able to use them without schoolboy humor. How long until these naked scan photos end up on the internet, or handed around the tea room. Especially celebs. Way over the top. The airport and security will have huge lawsuits against them, and quite rightly so.
Now where to buy that penal extension kit.
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<<<
They are also the only country I know who require you to take youre laptop out of its bag to scan.
>>>
Not at all. The Americans have followed this policy for a few years now, and they follow it pretty aggressively too. If you 'forget' to take your laptop out of its bag when it goes through the machine, you are then usually subject to the full personal detailed scrutiny routine.
They are also the only country I know who require you to take youre laptop out of its bag to scan.
>>>
Not at all. The Americans have followed this policy for a few years now, and they follow it pretty aggressively too. If you 'forget' to take your laptop out of its bag when it goes through the machine, you are then usually subject to the full personal detailed scrutiny routine.
They are also the only country I know who require you to take youre laptop out of its bag to scan.
The other half of the countries in the world do not require the laptop out of its bag, and if you start to take it out of its bag at the belt will shout at you because you are - yes, you guessed, "holding everyone up".
(eg regular trips UK to Ireland. UK - must be in bag; Ireland - must be out of bag)
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Is the scanning and frisking of aircrew more about being seen to be treating them the same as passengers than anything else?
Passengers passing through metal detectors alongside aircrew would soon get cheesed off watching aircrew walk through security without being checked and this would lead to heated comments being directed at security staff by anyone asked to suffer the indignity of being frisked or having their handbag contents displayed in front of complete strangers.
However, I have not had sufficient explanation for carrying out the same checks when aircrew pass through security separately from the passengers. At my home base, crews climb into their crew bus having first stowed all bags and (when applicable)suitcases, then drive about 500 metres to the security gate where they all clamber out, retrieve their bags and walk (in the rain coz the budget didn't stretch to a roof over the area) into the security building. Here there are always at least 4 security staff (bored out of their tiny minds) who end up having to frisk all the girlies (underwired bras?) and very few of the pilots (the odd hip replacement) who set off the metal detector. After collecting bags, suitcases and mobile phones from the X-ray machine, the crew then goes back out to the vehicle which, in the meantime has moved 25 metres into the 'airlock', where they wait whilst the driver undergoes his 48th security check of his shift. After all this, I can climb into my V-3 Flying Bomb, armed with 10s of tons of fuel deliverable at 500 mph, in which I can lock the flightdeck door and hold my fellow pilot hostage using a crash axe.
Perhaps it's time BALPA made a stand and we could just have thorough ID checks instead?
Rant over ..... "Nurse, is it time for lunch yet!"
Passengers passing through metal detectors alongside aircrew would soon get cheesed off watching aircrew walk through security without being checked and this would lead to heated comments being directed at security staff by anyone asked to suffer the indignity of being frisked or having their handbag contents displayed in front of complete strangers.
However, I have not had sufficient explanation for carrying out the same checks when aircrew pass through security separately from the passengers. At my home base, crews climb into their crew bus having first stowed all bags and (when applicable)suitcases, then drive about 500 metres to the security gate where they all clamber out, retrieve their bags and walk (in the rain coz the budget didn't stretch to a roof over the area) into the security building. Here there are always at least 4 security staff (bored out of their tiny minds) who end up having to frisk all the girlies (underwired bras?) and very few of the pilots (the odd hip replacement) who set off the metal detector. After collecting bags, suitcases and mobile phones from the X-ray machine, the crew then goes back out to the vehicle which, in the meantime has moved 25 metres into the 'airlock', where they wait whilst the driver undergoes his 48th security check of his shift. After all this, I can climb into my V-3 Flying Bomb, armed with 10s of tons of fuel deliverable at 500 mph, in which I can lock the flightdeck door and hold my fellow pilot hostage using a crash axe.
Perhaps it's time BALPA made a stand and we could just have thorough ID checks instead?
Rant over ..... "Nurse, is it time for lunch yet!"
I Have Control
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Hear Hear, Meadowbank.
Good idea, can BALPA take this up in all our interests? They would be the most influential body to represent the profession, and keep the issue from becoming a public battle.
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Check this out:
http://kcbs.com/pages/kcbs/news/news...gory=Computers
http://kcbs.com/pages/kcbs/news/news...gory=Computers
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Laptops...
I guess in the near-future having your laptop already for inspection rather than still secured in its bag will be expected by The Brainless during the reaming experience.
Anything less will earn you their special attention because "everyone knows" you have can't leave the laptop in the carry-on for the x-ray.
Haven't seen any shouting going on or "You're holding everyone up!!!" yet.
I guess in the near-future having your laptop already for inspection rather than still secured in its bag will be expected by The Brainless during the reaming experience.
Anything less will earn you their special attention because "everyone knows" you have can't leave the laptop in the carry-on for the x-ray.
Haven't seen any shouting going on or "You're holding everyone up!!!" yet.
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What most seem to forget is that it was the 'security' at airports, or rather the lack of it, that allowed the transgressions that started all this in the first place...!!
Now, legislation has been passed to ensure that the aircraft is a safer place. Cockpit doors are impassable, steps are in place to prevent a violent take over, the passengers themselves, nowadays, will act in unison to prevent a repeat of events...
BUT, the Brainless police college rejects have been given nothing less than abusive authority in the name of "security". These guys couldn't secure a place at a urinal without a written policy and hand-holding along the way, yet they decide now on who does what and how fast to walk through a metal detector. Ask them if they know what magnetic induction means and they will probably arrest you...!
wotsyors had an interesting comment, not picked up yet..
Many years back, I worked in the casino industry, in the department known as Surveillance - one day one of the croupiers asked me the question; "Who watches the watchers?"
I never forgot that, and I still ask the question today in any number of applications...
The point here - if anything was going to get on an aircraft with a view to taking it over, I have no doubt that it would be with the collusion of the relevant security detail at the initial point.
I am NOT saying that all security details are corrupt - what I am saying is that this is the weakest link. Hamburger wages, no thought required, just instructions to follow monkey style and a bit of power... this is a dangerous mix...
Not many of these abusive lot would ever pass any psychometric testing, not that they are required to do so, and yet they dictate to not only airline crew, who have spent years aquiring their qualifications, but to any other group of proffessionals you care to describe (passengers), as to what they must do..
abuse of power will come naturally to a certain mentality if allowed to progress unchecked.
Again - this will only apply to a percentile of the group - but - it is easy to see how it will easily spread to a persons peers in a group when it is seen to enhance stature and standing within that group. This, sadly is the mentality in a great many cases and a reasoning voice in the group will soon be ostracized by the greater voice.
I think it is high time that there is a review of duties and methodology and that the system defines the function and responsibility of the security detail.
The "them and us" mentality does and will not work - as can be seen, and to let this continue unchecked is going to make this a whole lot worse than it is now.
Without a concerted and united "Enough" nothing will change..
R
Now, legislation has been passed to ensure that the aircraft is a safer place. Cockpit doors are impassable, steps are in place to prevent a violent take over, the passengers themselves, nowadays, will act in unison to prevent a repeat of events...
BUT, the Brainless police college rejects have been given nothing less than abusive authority in the name of "security". These guys couldn't secure a place at a urinal without a written policy and hand-holding along the way, yet they decide now on who does what and how fast to walk through a metal detector. Ask them if they know what magnetic induction means and they will probably arrest you...!
wotsyors had an interesting comment, not picked up yet..
what on earth is going on ? nobody has asked the obvious question, namely who checks the checkers ?
I never forgot that, and I still ask the question today in any number of applications...
The point here - if anything was going to get on an aircraft with a view to taking it over, I have no doubt that it would be with the collusion of the relevant security detail at the initial point.
I am NOT saying that all security details are corrupt - what I am saying is that this is the weakest link. Hamburger wages, no thought required, just instructions to follow monkey style and a bit of power... this is a dangerous mix...
Not many of these abusive lot would ever pass any psychometric testing, not that they are required to do so, and yet they dictate to not only airline crew, who have spent years aquiring their qualifications, but to any other group of proffessionals you care to describe (passengers), as to what they must do..
abuse of power will come naturally to a certain mentality if allowed to progress unchecked.
Again - this will only apply to a percentile of the group - but - it is easy to see how it will easily spread to a persons peers in a group when it is seen to enhance stature and standing within that group. This, sadly is the mentality in a great many cases and a reasoning voice in the group will soon be ostracized by the greater voice.
I think it is high time that there is a review of duties and methodology and that the system defines the function and responsibility of the security detail.
The "them and us" mentality does and will not work - as can be seen, and to let this continue unchecked is going to make this a whole lot worse than it is now.
Without a concerted and united "Enough" nothing will change..
R
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here my last two flights,
Start from a airport in Asia ( name undisclosed, they may be terrorist reading ).
Whre you have to pass trough the metal detector while your bag are scanned( laptop stays inside the bag), Metal detector beeped as usual and I am cleared to proceed because I am airline crew in uniform.
Why should they x-ray my bag, as I just have to put the weapon on me????
Return flight, you go to the airline office, where the guy checked your ID and that your are in GenDec given to the authorities and that you are indeed who you said you are and then opens the door airside so you can proceed. NO checks at all because you are the crew on duty!! Before you wondered this is an United States airport controlled by our beloved TSA!!
Return to the States, other airport but same country, you have to remove, your jacket, your shoes,... of course your laptop have to be out of the bag, are you kidding!!, you have to passed three times through the detector because it is so sensitive, it probably detected the car in the parking lot.
Get frisked, no professionnaly, I could have hide a weapon easily and you wonder is this is really safer........No comment please, I know the answer
So I will not be accused of anti-americanism, here one about a north-italian airport, the crew have to stepped down the crew bus, to be x-ray, etc.. but guess what happens to the crew bus, it just enters by a side door, to pick you up again airside, no check of the drivers, no check of what inside the bus. I systematiquely "forget" to take my nav bag out of the bus, never once was I challenged. I have make so many report that I just xerox the old ones changing the date
<rant on>
I am not opposed to safety, and the "I don't thrust anyone attitude", but then at least do it professionnaly and effectively. As long at it stay like that, I continue to think the security guards of the world are a bunch of incompetent, stupid lot on a power trip to try to make your life as miserable as theirs.
Sorry for the few guys doing their job correctly and really trying to improves things
<rant off>
Start from a airport in Asia ( name undisclosed, they may be terrorist reading
).Whre you have to pass trough the metal detector while your bag are scanned( laptop stays inside the bag), Metal detector beeped as usual and I am cleared to proceed because I am airline crew in uniform.
Why should they x-ray my bag, as I just have to put the weapon on me????
Return flight, you go to the airline office, where the guy checked your ID and that your are in GenDec given to the authorities and that you are indeed who you said you are and then opens the door airside so you can proceed. NO checks at all because you are the crew on duty!! Before you wondered this is an United States airport controlled by our beloved TSA!!
Return to the States, other airport but same country, you have to remove, your jacket, your shoes,... of course your laptop have to be out of the bag, are you kidding!!, you have to passed three times through the detector because it is so sensitive, it probably detected the car in the parking lot.
Get frisked, no professionnaly, I could have hide a weapon easily and you wonder is this is really safer........No comment please, I know the answer
So I will not be accused of anti-americanism, here one about a north-italian airport, the crew have to stepped down the crew bus, to be x-ray, etc.. but guess what happens to the crew bus, it just enters by a side door, to pick you up again airside, no check of the drivers, no check of what inside the bus. I systematiquely "forget" to take my nav bag out of the bus, never once was I challenged. I have make so many report that I just xerox the old ones changing the date
<rant on>
I am not opposed to safety, and the "I don't thrust anyone attitude", but then at least do it professionnaly and effectively. As long at it stay like that, I continue to think the security guards of the world are a bunch of incompetent, stupid lot on a power trip to try to make your life as miserable as theirs.
Sorry for the few guys doing their job correctly and really trying to improves things
<rant off>