Korean almost ditched
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KIX maybe a modern airport with good navaids, but it also has almost criminally convoluted flight paths
As part of the compromise to get the airport built, the local communities insisted on, and got, flight paths that don't even cross land, let alone noise abatement
As part of the compromise to get the airport built, the local communities insisted on, and got, flight paths that don't even cross land, let alone noise abatement
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
KAL Aviator, your well thought out analysis makes sense to many of us from Western cultures, who understand the need for SAFETY's sake to incorporate CRM into everyday Flight Deck operations.
Unfortunately, in most Asian countries, their cultures give CRM lip service only - perhaps for insurance reasons, but I'm only surmising there.
As an example, recently ATIS (at a local airport here in Japan) advised that the approach was an ILS.
Wind was "variable 3 kts", and it is usual for this airport to conduct ILS's with tailwinds, as they are overwater vs city overflys.
Subsequently we received radar vectoring that took us through the LOC to the other side, and an instruction to reduce speed (we were about #4).
Approach then made an all stations general broadcast, which I heard as "R/W CHANGE in progress", and advised the F/O to set up for an ILS on the reciprocal runway......after a puzzled look from him, I said something like "Well that is the worst we can expect, instead of a visual approach.", and so he re-tuned the frequencies on both sides, and reset the minima on his side (I reset the new QDM on both sides, as per our sops)....nothing further said!
Several minutes later, I heard a preceding aircraft cleared for an approach onto the original runway, and asked him to contact app. to confirm which runway we would be using...it seemed strange to me that AFTER advising a R/W change they would still land an aircraft on the other runway, but still, he would probably be the last one.
Before the F/O got his call out, APP advised "Runway INSPECTION complete."
To shorten the story, the F/O had heard from the start that there was a runway INSPECTION in progress and not a runway CHANGE - but because "The Captain" had "decreed" a runway change, he had - albeit reluctantly - complied.
He is not a brand new F/O, he's a nice guy, easy to get on with.
But there is that cultural upbringing ingrained into them that almost prohibits them from questioning an order issued from a "higher authority".
THAT KAL Aviator, is what you are REALLY up against.
The compatability of CRM and Asian culture, and CRM is like a dew drop on a lily in Asian airlines!
Look at WHO the founder of KAL was, and his background (ex-military), and you can understand (from the Korean point of view) why Korean ex-Air Force pilots hold the authority they do. Asian tradition!!
Unfortunately, in most Asian countries, their cultures give CRM lip service only - perhaps for insurance reasons, but I'm only surmising there.
As an example, recently ATIS (at a local airport here in Japan) advised that the approach was an ILS.
Wind was "variable 3 kts", and it is usual for this airport to conduct ILS's with tailwinds, as they are overwater vs city overflys.
Subsequently we received radar vectoring that took us through the LOC to the other side, and an instruction to reduce speed (we were about #4).
Approach then made an all stations general broadcast, which I heard as "R/W CHANGE in progress", and advised the F/O to set up for an ILS on the reciprocal runway......after a puzzled look from him, I said something like "Well that is the worst we can expect, instead of a visual approach.", and so he re-tuned the frequencies on both sides, and reset the minima on his side (I reset the new QDM on both sides, as per our sops)....nothing further said!
Several minutes later, I heard a preceding aircraft cleared for an approach onto the original runway, and asked him to contact app. to confirm which runway we would be using...it seemed strange to me that AFTER advising a R/W change they would still land an aircraft on the other runway, but still, he would probably be the last one.
Before the F/O got his call out, APP advised "Runway INSPECTION complete."
To shorten the story, the F/O had heard from the start that there was a runway INSPECTION in progress and not a runway CHANGE - but because "The Captain" had "decreed" a runway change, he had - albeit reluctantly - complied.
He is not a brand new F/O, he's a nice guy, easy to get on with.
But there is that cultural upbringing ingrained into them that almost prohibits them from questioning an order issued from a "higher authority".
THAT KAL Aviator, is what you are REALLY up against.
The compatability of CRM and Asian culture, and CRM is like a dew drop on a lily in Asian airlines!
Look at WHO the founder of KAL was, and his background (ex-military), and you can understand (from the Korean point of view) why Korean ex-Air Force pilots hold the authority they do. Asian tradition!!
Join Date: Aug 2004
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ukwannabe:
This was an informal meeting mainly attended by our colleagues from the Southern Hemisphere (Oz and Springbok) with the vino and other libations flowing freely! The main complaint was a lack of confidence and trust in the new AVP.
Granted the new AVP (AM) has only be in power a couple of months and should be given time to settle in, but the feeling in general is that the former AVP (PChM) was a known entity and had already proved himself on many an occasion.
Unfortunately, being more than just “window dressing”, the former AVP rattled management’s cage on several occasions and they wanted someone like the new AVP who’s just a manikin in the window!
His direct boss (VP LYD) is no better and will shortly be replaced, or so the rumor goes!
The new AVP, during one of his recent addresses to the FP’s in the presence of management stated that he was simply “trying” this new post for a 6 month period and that he’s already come close to walking away on several instances! This doesn’t instill a great deal of commitment or confidence!
With all that’s presently going on, perhaps the best thing the new AVP could do is resign with honor and grace rather than be removed forcibly.
In closing, I note with interest that the moderators to this forum have already edited one of the earlier posts and removed the names of certain individuals! Obviously this particular posting touched a sensitive nerve in those concerned (mentioned)?
kaptin m:
An excellent example and KAL Aviator certainly got to the grass roots of the real problems!
This was an informal meeting mainly attended by our colleagues from the Southern Hemisphere (Oz and Springbok) with the vino and other libations flowing freely! The main complaint was a lack of confidence and trust in the new AVP.
Granted the new AVP (AM) has only be in power a couple of months and should be given time to settle in, but the feeling in general is that the former AVP (PChM) was a known entity and had already proved himself on many an occasion.
Unfortunately, being more than just “window dressing”, the former AVP rattled management’s cage on several occasions and they wanted someone like the new AVP who’s just a manikin in the window!
His direct boss (VP LYD) is no better and will shortly be replaced, or so the rumor goes!
The new AVP, during one of his recent addresses to the FP’s in the presence of management stated that he was simply “trying” this new post for a 6 month period and that he’s already come close to walking away on several instances! This doesn’t instill a great deal of commitment or confidence!
With all that’s presently going on, perhaps the best thing the new AVP could do is resign with honor and grace rather than be removed forcibly.
In closing, I note with interest that the moderators to this forum have already edited one of the earlier posts and removed the names of certain individuals! Obviously this particular posting touched a sensitive nerve in those concerned (mentioned)?
kaptin m:
An excellent example and KAL Aviator certainly got to the grass roots of the real problems!
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Gentlemen:
Notifying the aviation fraternity about safety issues in the hope that lessons can be learned by mistakes made by others is one thing, but airing out a corporation’s dirty laundry to the general public is wrong.
FOQA events (posted by "Morning Calm") in any airline are usually kept confidential to senior managers and not normally divulged to line pilots generally. Perhaps Korean Air needs to adopt this procedure thus avoiding future events being made so public.
There is clearly a leak which needs to be plugged and has anyone considered the monthly crew meetings as a possible source of such leaks?
"Bulgogi Flyer" has approached whatever problems the foreign pilots may have with management in the wrong way and "KAL Aviator" (and others) have certainly identified the root cause of not only Korean Air’s problems but the problems encountered by many Asian airlines.
Naming individuals shows a vindictive streak in the author who is probably an unbalanced person not suited to commanding an aircraft and identifying and taking appropriate action would be well advised.
As a Korean Air pilot on my third contract, I can honestly state that there is a Flight Operations Quality Assurance Auditor/Safety Advisor (B777 fleet) with access to the safety department’s FOQA data who regularly discusses FOQA events on layovers, in the crew room and other social gatherings. Granted I have almost identified this individual but I have done it in such a way that Korean Air personnel and not the general public will know who the culprit is.
Hopefully, management will adopt more stringent procedures on the sharing of sensitive information to it’s workforce in the future.
Safe Flying to all my colleagues ………………
Notifying the aviation fraternity about safety issues in the hope that lessons can be learned by mistakes made by others is one thing, but airing out a corporation’s dirty laundry to the general public is wrong.
FOQA events (posted by "Morning Calm") in any airline are usually kept confidential to senior managers and not normally divulged to line pilots generally. Perhaps Korean Air needs to adopt this procedure thus avoiding future events being made so public.
There is clearly a leak which needs to be plugged and has anyone considered the monthly crew meetings as a possible source of such leaks?
"Bulgogi Flyer" has approached whatever problems the foreign pilots may have with management in the wrong way and "KAL Aviator" (and others) have certainly identified the root cause of not only Korean Air’s problems but the problems encountered by many Asian airlines.
Naming individuals shows a vindictive streak in the author who is probably an unbalanced person not suited to commanding an aircraft and identifying and taking appropriate action would be well advised.
As a Korean Air pilot on my third contract, I can honestly state that there is a Flight Operations Quality Assurance Auditor/Safety Advisor (B777 fleet) with access to the safety department’s FOQA data who regularly discusses FOQA events on layovers, in the crew room and other social gatherings. Granted I have almost identified this individual but I have done it in such a way that Korean Air personnel and not the general public will know who the culprit is.
Hopefully, management will adopt more stringent procedures on the sharing of sensitive information to it’s workforce in the future.
Safe Flying to all my colleagues ………………
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To: All KE Foreign Managers
As a former KE Foreign Manager I can sympathize with all the postings appearing here and for whatever its worth – no one is going to change anything, anytime no matter how dedicated you may be to your positions.
These Management positions would be considered prestigious and respectable in most normal airlines; however KE is far from being a normal airline with normal and recognized work principles or ethics.
The airline is Military "founded and ruled" and no mortal Civilian is ever going to change this unfortunate situation.
For those of you either in Management or simply on the line, you should consider yourselves lucky that you are gainfully employed and let your employers continue to run their airline, their way.
The contract you are all working under and accepted with “eyes wide open” is one of the best contract positions available and continuing to rattle the cages of the hands that feed you can only lead to the phasing out of you “foreign devils” as your referred to by many a national pilot.
I speak from experience on both sides of the workforce; management and line pilot and now I operate for another carrier at half the salary, no guaranteed days off, no travel benefits in a fairly hostile environment here in the Mid East.
KE is heaven compared to most other Asian/Pacific Rim carriers so hang on to your positions and adhere to your contractual obligations.
Happy New Year to everyone on the 7th & 8th floors and at the Hyatt Incheon.
As a former KE Foreign Manager I can sympathize with all the postings appearing here and for whatever its worth – no one is going to change anything, anytime no matter how dedicated you may be to your positions.
These Management positions would be considered prestigious and respectable in most normal airlines; however KE is far from being a normal airline with normal and recognized work principles or ethics.
The airline is Military "founded and ruled" and no mortal Civilian is ever going to change this unfortunate situation.
For those of you either in Management or simply on the line, you should consider yourselves lucky that you are gainfully employed and let your employers continue to run their airline, their way.
The contract you are all working under and accepted with “eyes wide open” is one of the best contract positions available and continuing to rattle the cages of the hands that feed you can only lead to the phasing out of you “foreign devils” as your referred to by many a national pilot.
I speak from experience on both sides of the workforce; management and line pilot and now I operate for another carrier at half the salary, no guaranteed days off, no travel benefits in a fairly hostile environment here in the Mid East.
KE is heaven compared to most other Asian/Pacific Rim carriers so hang on to your positions and adhere to your contractual obligations.
Happy New Year to everyone on the 7th & 8th floors and at the Hyatt Incheon.
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Well said Chongmal!
And for some previous posters.....by the way, Pprune forums are full of people posting that no-one should say anything derogatory UNTIL accident/incident reports etc are completed. Have a look at the caveats in many posts regarding the Halifax MK crash. Why is it soooo difficult to allow that respect for pilots an Asian carrier?
Who's to say that there wasn't a systems malfunction, crew incapacitation, or a handling/perception error by the PF that was then noticed by the "junior" PNF, called out and corrected by the PF (i.e. a cockpit with some good CRM in it, despite the initial mistake)?
How about informed comment only...idle racist speculation demeans both the sender and the prospects of learning from what happened how to build even better skies.
And for some previous posters.....by the way, Pprune forums are full of people posting that no-one should say anything derogatory UNTIL accident/incident reports etc are completed. Have a look at the caveats in many posts regarding the Halifax MK crash. Why is it soooo difficult to allow that respect for pilots an Asian carrier?
Who's to say that there wasn't a systems malfunction, crew incapacitation, or a handling/perception error by the PF that was then noticed by the "junior" PNF, called out and corrected by the PF (i.e. a cockpit with some good CRM in it, despite the initial mistake)?
How about informed comment only...idle racist speculation demeans both the sender and the prospects of learning from what happened how to build even better skies.
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you should consider yourselves lucky that you are gainfully employed and let your employers continue to run their airline, their way.
The contract you are all working under and accepted with “eyes wide open” is one of the best contract positions available.
KE is heaven compared to most other Asian/Pacific Rim carriers so hang on to your positions and adhere to your contractual obligations.
The contract you are all working under and accepted with “eyes wide open” is one of the best contract positions available.
KE is heaven compared to most other Asian/Pacific Rim carriers so hang on to your positions and adhere to your contractual obligations.
Some things have been changed at KE, but not through any input on your part.
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Brilliant, A330 Retard! Keep FOQA data secret - or confined to managers inboxes. The pathological approach to handling safety information will be certain to improve company safety standards.
Apparently you occupy one of those remote corners of the world where news of more enlightened methods for raising the safety bar, developed over the past few decades, has not reached.
Apparently you occupy one of those remote corners of the world where news of more enlightened methods for raising the safety bar, developed over the past few decades, has not reached.
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KAL receives IOSA certification
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Ferrydude, that's a tough audit. You have to give them credit. An audit is mainly about the paperwork of course, and only an internal audit would be able to prove that the personnel were actually following the procedures, but the assumption in any audit is that this is the case.
I read here a lot of criticism about ex-military pilots, but I was one of those and I don't think it hurt me. In fact I was proud of my military training, which I considered better than anything I have experienced in the civilian field. The Korean pilots also have excellent training, and many have superior flying skills, as well as above average education. The maintenance department does an exceptional job and all the airplanes are in tip-top condition, with hardly ever a MEL sticker to be seen.
Yet I know, from personal experience, that they are always only a heart-beat away from a disaster. They can take a perfectly serviceable airplane and turn it into an accident site.
The rigid social structure they have is ingrained and I cannot see how it can be changed. I used to think that the Cheju pilots would move the airline away from that as they gained commands and moved into management, but the indoctrination they get, and the advantages they see to those using the current system, makes them rigid too, and as converts they will be even worse. I tried to help the First Officers while I was there, even though I was not chosen for a training role, but even if I had a good point, the FO was forced to ignore my advice if it differed from that he had been given by his Korean IP, since to accept it would put him in conflict and the only outcome would be that he would be slapped down.
The line trainers and line Captains have the real power and influence. Simulator trainers cannot influence the way that the procedures are used, or affect the thinking processes. Like an audit, sim training only measures the paperwork. If the line trainers are incompetent, then the students will be also. When the students become trainers, the standard will be much lower than it started out, and when that group moves into training, lower still. The only way to break the cycle is to improve the standards of the line training, something that looks to me to be impossible, given the way the airline is organised now, and the emphasis on paperwork (procedures, rules, FOQA etc). The standard of knowledge is abysmal, and it is what you don't know, or, worse, that you don't know you don't know, that will kill you.
I don't know how it fits, but the foreign pilots also had, many times, a military background, and come from all over the world, including Indonesia, Bulgaria, Brazil and so on, yet they, despite the lack of training given by the airline (and in many cases negative training) continue to operate safely. The only difference I could see between the two groups is in the Korean culture. Since that cannot be changed, only hidden, maybe there cannot be progress.
I read here a lot of criticism about ex-military pilots, but I was one of those and I don't think it hurt me. In fact I was proud of my military training, which I considered better than anything I have experienced in the civilian field. The Korean pilots also have excellent training, and many have superior flying skills, as well as above average education. The maintenance department does an exceptional job and all the airplanes are in tip-top condition, with hardly ever a MEL sticker to be seen.
Yet I know, from personal experience, that they are always only a heart-beat away from a disaster. They can take a perfectly serviceable airplane and turn it into an accident site.
The rigid social structure they have is ingrained and I cannot see how it can be changed. I used to think that the Cheju pilots would move the airline away from that as they gained commands and moved into management, but the indoctrination they get, and the advantages they see to those using the current system, makes them rigid too, and as converts they will be even worse. I tried to help the First Officers while I was there, even though I was not chosen for a training role, but even if I had a good point, the FO was forced to ignore my advice if it differed from that he had been given by his Korean IP, since to accept it would put him in conflict and the only outcome would be that he would be slapped down.
The line trainers and line Captains have the real power and influence. Simulator trainers cannot influence the way that the procedures are used, or affect the thinking processes. Like an audit, sim training only measures the paperwork. If the line trainers are incompetent, then the students will be also. When the students become trainers, the standard will be much lower than it started out, and when that group moves into training, lower still. The only way to break the cycle is to improve the standards of the line training, something that looks to me to be impossible, given the way the airline is organised now, and the emphasis on paperwork (procedures, rules, FOQA etc). The standard of knowledge is abysmal, and it is what you don't know, or, worse, that you don't know you don't know, that will kill you.
I don't know how it fits, but the foreign pilots also had, many times, a military background, and come from all over the world, including Indonesia, Bulgaria, Brazil and so on, yet they, despite the lack of training given by the airline (and in many cases negative training) continue to operate safely. The only difference I could see between the two groups is in the Korean culture. Since that cannot be changed, only hidden, maybe there cannot be progress.
