BA Pilot's sex discrimination case. (Update: Now includes Tribunal's judgement)
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Personally, I am delighted with the outcome. As many know, I have supported this case from the start and regardless of the specifics of the case it is not, as some have put it, “another nail in the coffin for pilots” infact, quite the contrary! It is more than one pilot who had the courage of her convictions to stand up to an airline’s management; it sends out a clear and positive signal to the world at large that the days of pilots being pushed around and treated like second-class citizens are drawing to a close.
We have supported the airlines through ‘difficult times’ through job cuts, salary freezes, crazy rosters etc etc but now that the ‘difficult times’ are coming to an end and profits & passenger numbers are once again up, it’s time for the airlines to start paying us back for our loyalty and hard work. . . .
Jess, many, many congrats!
BH
We have supported the airlines through ‘difficult times’ through job cuts, salary freezes, crazy rosters etc etc but now that the ‘difficult times’ are coming to an end and profits & passenger numbers are once again up, it’s time for the airlines to start paying us back for our loyalty and hard work. . . .
Jess, many, many congrats!
BH
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......it sends out a clear and positive signal to the world at large that the days of pilots being pushed around and treated like second-class citizens are drawing to a close.
The world at large beyond British Airways.......the real world at large in other words, is still as it always was.
Except that the real world at large is now, from my experiences, more wary of employing females pilots and, unlike BA, is very likely to react adversely.
Calling BA "the world at large".......sheesh!
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The the end of the day, she signed the contract with BA which states at the top "Full time". I don't see why she should now be able to rewrite it just because it suits her.
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Calling BA "the world at large".......sheesh!
BH
BH
hear hear
of course she should have won the case, employment legislation applies to employees whatever their vocation and whatever the cost of training.
should we be prepared to forego our larger salaries because we cost more to employ than cleaners?
of course not, so what is the relevance of training costs?
would it have been any different if she had paid for her own training as is de rigeur now with the locos? I doubt it, there would still be spurious claptrap spouted about experience levels and motivation.
I wish all employers were as loyal to us and our profession as we seem to be to this industry if some of the above postings are for real!
of course she should have won the case, employment legislation applies to employees whatever their vocation and whatever the cost of training.
should we be prepared to forego our larger salaries because we cost more to employ than cleaners?
of course not, so what is the relevance of training costs?
would it have been any different if she had paid for her own training as is de rigeur now with the locos? I doubt it, there would still be spurious claptrap spouted about experience levels and motivation.
I wish all employers were as loyal to us and our profession as we seem to be to this industry if some of the above postings are for real!
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Ms Starmer undoubtedly owes the opportunity to work for BA to being able to stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before, often in the face of considerable predjudice and male chauvinism.
I wonder if any young girls who hope to be pilots in the future will be wanting to stand on her shoulders?
I wonder if any young girls who hope to be pilots in the future will be wanting to stand on her shoulders?
Re Post by Mike Godsell
I agree totally with & your comment, that if BALPA continue to support this case at any appeal, you will cancel your subscription.
Can I suggest, that every other BALPA member takes the same course of action & cancels their subscription as well.
The great pity to my mind about this particular case, is that it demeans & reduces the integrity, of all the other highly professional & dedicated female pilots in the industry, who we all know have worked damm hard to get where they are to day.
Can I suggest, that every other BALPA member takes the same course of action & cancels their subscription as well.
The great pity to my mind about this particular case, is that it demeans & reduces the integrity, of all the other highly professional & dedicated female pilots in the industry, who we all know have worked damm hard to get where they are to day.
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Big Hilly
Loyalty and hard work, under BA's rules, comes circa 2000 hours. Then you can request 50%.
My Grandfather (DFC, DFM, Queens Commendation) who flew BOAC post WW2 until retirement would be turning in his grave.
Craggs
it’s time for the airlines to start paying us back for our loyalty and hard work. . . .
My Grandfather (DFC, DFM, Queens Commendation) who flew BOAC post WW2 until retirement would be turning in his grave.
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Sunfish - These are not urban legends 'as you suspect'. These are hard fact. 'Stella's' case in McDonalds was utterly frivolous and a complete rip-off. She did indeed suffer extensive burns - as would anyone being so foolish. Coffee is meant to be served piping hot and has been for generations. She knew this and failed to take adequate precautions. If you put your head in your boiling kettle this evening then you too will suffer extensive burns. There again you could be sensible and put it in a mug with some milk and not pour it down yourself - that is not the responsibility of the kettle provider but of you the user.
Like anyone who has an awareness of what is happening around them I could go on to speak against countless (and utterly true) ludicrous judgements of recent years including the ones I have highlighted, but it would take us off the thread. They may well be 'urban legends' to you but to the people who are the victims of what is essentially fraudulent behaviour they can have very serious consequences.
Similarly, and returning to the thread, this BA pilot, with the assistance of BALPA, has made a mockery of justice. Any sensible and right-thinking person can see this for what it is. There will always be those who will argue black is white and there will be no shortage of buffoons who are taken in by it. I for one am not taken in by this for a moment and have no hesitation in calling it for what it is.
Like anyone who has an awareness of what is happening around them I could go on to speak against countless (and utterly true) ludicrous judgements of recent years including the ones I have highlighted, but it would take us off the thread. They may well be 'urban legends' to you but to the people who are the victims of what is essentially fraudulent behaviour they can have very serious consequences.
Similarly, and returning to the thread, this BA pilot, with the assistance of BALPA, has made a mockery of justice. Any sensible and right-thinking person can see this for what it is. There will always be those who will argue black is white and there will be no shortage of buffoons who are taken in by it. I for one am not taken in by this for a moment and have no hesitation in calling it for what it is.
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A fair comparison would be with doctors, who first have to gain on-the-job experience as housemen/registrars (2nd officers) before eventually reaping the rich rewards of a consultancy (1st officers). Working for only half the normal hours, this woman could become dangerously 'out of touch' both practically and theoretically. In this particular case, the employer is right.
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I've never read such a load of reactionary, sexist cobblers in all my life. Mosrt of the posters in the naysayer camp should be ashamed of themselves and the language they have used. Pompous or what!
Try substituting the words "black" or "gay" for 'female' and then re-read some of these posts - the tone and language is thoroughly offensive to women, and I say this as a childless, middle aged bloke!
What century do you lot think you are living in? Flying is a job, not a monastic creed, and in this century women have an absolute right to have a career and children at the time it best suits them so to do - get used to it.
I'll make a sweeping generalisation here to rival Mr Fletchedrs' astonishing arrogance about " right thinking people". A fair and decent society is one in which the basic right of a woman to have her children as and when she chooses to should be taken for granted.
Try substituting the words "black" or "gay" for 'female' and then re-read some of these posts - the tone and language is thoroughly offensive to women, and I say this as a childless, middle aged bloke!
What century do you lot think you are living in? Flying is a job, not a monastic creed, and in this century women have an absolute right to have a career and children at the time it best suits them so to do - get used to it.
I'll make a sweeping generalisation here to rival Mr Fletchedrs' astonishing arrogance about " right thinking people". A fair and decent society is one in which the basic right of a woman to have her children as and when she chooses to should be taken for granted.
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Craggenmore,
I too have done my bit for Queen and Country and seem to recall being awarded the odd bit of ironmongery on occasions to boot. . .
However, I'm pleased to report that we've all come a long way since the bad ol' days of BOAC ever since we joined the rest of the civilized world in the 21st century, . . .
BH
I too have done my bit for Queen and Country and seem to recall being awarded the odd bit of ironmongery on occasions to boot. . .
However, I'm pleased to report that we've all come a long way since the bad ol' days of BOAC ever since we joined the rest of the civilized world in the 21st century, . . .BH
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Oh, and another thing - cancel your subscriptions to BALPA would you? Thats going to achieve a huge amount for the profession- NOT!
I'd go so far, having read what I judge to be the most shameful, nasty thread in all I've read on PPRUNE, to venture that BALPA would be better off without the reactionary, nasty, sexist, judgemental bigotry that I've seen here in its midst. Go ahead, cancel your subscriptions!
I'd go so far, having read what I judge to be the most shameful, nasty thread in all I've read on PPRUNE, to venture that BALPA would be better off without the reactionary, nasty, sexist, judgemental bigotry that I've seen here in its midst. Go ahead, cancel your subscriptions!
women have an absolute right to have a career and children at the time it best suits them so to do - get used to it.
I'd go so far, having read what I judge to be the most shameful, nasty thread in all I've read on PPRUNE
I am in the military (on a ground tour) with a 7-month old son, who is looked after by the wife while she stays at home and intends to return to work when the boy is settled in school.
Where's my tribunal? Where's my union? Where are my rights to work part-time?
Too many loony liberals here are too focused on the 'rights' of minorities when they should pay more attention to the responsibilities shouldered by the many.
PS: I'd say the point that BA make about a lack of experience pre 2000 hrs is valid.
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What century do you lot think you are living in? Flying is a job, not a monastic creed, and in this century women have an absolute right to have a career and children at the time it best suits them so to do - get used to it
Of course everyone has a right to a career and a family.
They shouldn't expect the conditions of their employment be altered to suit them.
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Of course everyone has a right to a career and a family. They shouldn't expect the conditions of their employment be altered to suit them.
In a more general sense, I think a lot of jealousy from people that do not have kids. For those that have taken the decision not to have any children, just bear in mind that when you retire, the taxation to keep the infrastructure of society going will be paid for by the children of your child bearing colleauges.
People, whether you are a biological parent or not, we all have a responsibility to share the burden of child care, unless you are willing to be euthanised on your retirement date. (which lets face it BA would love!)
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It is not those posters so absolutely correct in their disgust at this womans actions that bother me, no it's the little 'l' politically correct weenies that concern me more. You are the reason that the whole world is turning into a Nanny place. No one is saying that a female cannot have both a job/career and children if she so desires. The point is she should not expect any preferential treatment, which disadvantages her fellow workers both male and female, to achieve this worthy goal. I did re-read the posts and I cannot see any link between our various comments against this womans actions and gays, people not white, Jews, left handed people or people who drive Hyundais. PC gone mad.
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I suggest that all pilots be it men or woman( within BA ) who would like to go part-time file a pettition with the applicable courts on grounds of equal rights. Take it to the European courts and see what the outcome is.
by the way what would the outcome be at Ryanair...?
Pointer
by the way what would the outcome be at Ryanair...?
Pointer
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I used to work for a UK short haul jet airline that allowed part time working. A lady Training Captain had a baby and returned to work on a fifty per cent roster.
Amongst my professional pilot colleagues I never heard one sour grape comment whatsoever. The only issue mentioned was that, pro rata, the company was getting more than their pound of flesh in flying hours.
I cannot believe that all the negative comment here on Pprune actually come from UK airline pilots. They just don't ring true.
Amongst my professional pilot colleagues I never heard one sour grape comment whatsoever. The only issue mentioned was that, pro rata, the company was getting more than their pound of flesh in flying hours.
I cannot believe that all the negative comment here on Pprune actually come from UK airline pilots. They just don't ring true.