BA Pilot's sex discrimination case. (Update: Now includes Tribunal's judgement)
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Presumably, at the risk of cynicism from employers against women. Quite ironic.
Sorry for so many posts, this is from the Balpa website:
Jessica Starmer, the young woman pilot working for British Airways who was denied 50 per cent part time working by the airline has won her Employment Tribunal claim.
Jessica, 26, needs to work 50 per cent part time so that she can look after her one year old daughter Beth. Jessica was supported by her union, the British
Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA).
BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan said: ‘We welcome the Tribunal’s decision and hope that it will encourage more airlines to introduce better part time and flexible working arrangements for all flight crew whether they are a young mum or dad, someone who is caring for aged parents or someone who needs flexible retirement arrangements.
‘British Airways should show the same flexibility in employment practices as they demand of their pilots. The pilot labour market is tightening and UK aviation needs to use the skills of all its pilots.’
Jessica declared: ‘I am delighted with this result. I am delighted that I will now be able to spend more time with my beautiful daughter Beth, and will be able to balance caring for her with the responsibilities of my job.
‘I believe my request for flexible working was reasonable, justified and in accordance with the dual responsibilities I hold as a worker and a parent. All that I wanted was to make sure that my daughter was cared for properly, while continuing in a career into which both my employer and I have invested lots of time and money.’
Sorry for so many posts, this is from the Balpa website:
Jessica Starmer, the young woman pilot working for British Airways who was denied 50 per cent part time working by the airline has won her Employment Tribunal claim.
Jessica, 26, needs to work 50 per cent part time so that she can look after her one year old daughter Beth. Jessica was supported by her union, the British
Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA).
BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan said: ‘We welcome the Tribunal’s decision and hope that it will encourage more airlines to introduce better part time and flexible working arrangements for all flight crew whether they are a young mum or dad, someone who is caring for aged parents or someone who needs flexible retirement arrangements.
‘British Airways should show the same flexibility in employment practices as they demand of their pilots. The pilot labour market is tightening and UK aviation needs to use the skills of all its pilots.’
Jessica declared: ‘I am delighted with this result. I am delighted that I will now be able to spend more time with my beautiful daughter Beth, and will be able to balance caring for her with the responsibilities of my job.
‘I believe my request for flexible working was reasonable, justified and in accordance with the dual responsibilities I hold as a worker and a parent. All that I wanted was to make sure that my daughter was cared for properly, while continuing in a career into which both my employer and I have invested lots of time and money.’
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I believe my request for flexible working was reasonable, justified and in accordance with the dual responsibilities I hold as a worker and a parent. All that I wanted was to make sure that my daughter was cared for properly, while continuing in a career into which both my employer and I have invested lots of time and money.’
Money? I though she was a cadet?
Money? I though she was a cadet?
Last edited by African Drunk; 25th Apr 2005 at 12:39.
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She was a cadet, which menas BA have paid for her to get to where she is . . .
Dare I ask how many pilots (male and female) put their plans for a familiy on hold when in her position?
Dare I ask how many pilots (male and female) put their plans for a familiy on hold when in her position?
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Lucifer;
Now that's just the thing ... it's the woman NOT working that is the issue here,
Like i mentioned earlier, in some airlines it is shared equally, i know of a pilot pair that have both 75% and share the upbrining of theire children.
but here the woman in question has made a claim which most found to be either too early or not fair to those who wanted this as well. Equal rights in this case are not applied.
On the view of her personal i would say; well done, and congratulations.
On a moral ground i said to all those who want parttime, use this as legal precedence(is this the right word?).
And for the employers i would say, call your lawyers and set up some rules and regultations so you don't get cheated like this again. (maybe forget hiring woman for now)
some are more equal than others.
so I can't expect many of you to be progressive with this modern newfangled stuff such as women working.
Like i mentioned earlier, in some airlines it is shared equally, i know of a pilot pair that have both 75% and share the upbrining of theire children.
but here the woman in question has made a claim which most found to be either too early or not fair to those who wanted this as well. Equal rights in this case are not applied.
On the view of her personal i would say; well done, and congratulations.
On a moral ground i said to all those who want parttime, use this as legal precedence(is this the right word?).
And for the employers i would say, call your lawyers and set up some rules and regultations so you don't get cheated like this again. (maybe forget hiring woman for now)
some are more equal than others.
African Drunk,
I think you're absolutely right.
Many pilots have spent huge amounts of money and time to achieve their ambitions.
Sadly this greedy selfish self centred lady hasn't. Would she be taking these actions/decisions if she had large debts to pay? Indeed, would she have paid for training for her 'dream job' herself if she hadn't the good luck to con BA into paying for her.
And as posted before, my sympathies to the many excellent female pilots who love their flying jobs, and may in future job applications find themselves being ostracised because of their sex.
I think you're absolutely right.
Many pilots have spent huge amounts of money and time to achieve their ambitions.
Sadly this greedy selfish self centred lady hasn't. Would she be taking these actions/decisions if she had large debts to pay? Indeed, would she have paid for training for her 'dream job' herself if she hadn't the good luck to con BA into paying for her.
And as posted before, my sympathies to the many excellent female pilots who love their flying jobs, and may in future job applications find themselves being ostracised because of their sex.
Uncle Pete
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A quote from the news conference:
Jessica declared: ‘I am delighted with this result. I am delighted that I will now be able to spend more time with my beautiful daughter Beth, and will be able to balance caring for her with the responsibilities of my job.
To a VERY DELIGHTED LADY:
Soon you might have all the time in the world to look after your baby daughter because I don't think BA will take you back. It's cheaper to get rid of you than it is to employ you.
Responsibilities of your job and the effect on the lady pilots who have to go to work were the last thing on your mind.
MP
Jessica declared: ‘I am delighted with this result. I am delighted that I will now be able to spend more time with my beautiful daughter Beth, and will be able to balance caring for her with the responsibilities of my job.
To a VERY DELIGHTED LADY:
Soon you might have all the time in the world to look after your baby daughter because I don't think BA will take you back. It's cheaper to get rid of you than it is to employ you.
Responsibilities of your job and the effect on the lady pilots who have to go to work were the last thing on your mind.
MP
I Have Control
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Wood...trees
Jessica will also no doubt be claiming child benefit, although she and her husband can surely get get by without it very comfortably. Why? Because this state allows and encourages such anti-social behaviour. And the judiciary support the nanny state concept at the expense of real people's lives and livelihoods.
So although her attitude stinks, and that of her lawyers and that of the judge, it is the country which is to blame, and the governing bodies. (Yes, I plan to leave in due course)
So although her attitude stinks, and that of her lawyers and that of the judge, it is the country which is to blame, and the governing bodies. (Yes, I plan to leave in due course)
Maximum: Did not bmi have a lady pilot with a baby and a fifty percent roster? easyJet too if I remember rightly. Also I think Maersk had a husband and wife team with the wife on part time to look after the kids.
Do you have a problem with this?
I admire Jessica's political skills - they are a lot sharper than some some of her masonic male colleagues . . .
Do you have a problem with this?
I admire Jessica's political skills - they are a lot sharper than some some of her masonic male colleagues . . .
Last edited by Spartacan; 26th Apr 2005 at 06:38.
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My understanding of this farce is that BA were already making concessions for this individual with both her and her husband granted reduced hours.
Unfortunately, BA failed to realise that Ms Starmer is "one of those" i.e. someone who is prepared to abuse their position for their own advantage. These people exisit throughout society, they don't have to be female, they can be an ethnic minority/disabled whatever. Whereas the vast majority of people will take their own lives into their hands careerwise or on a day-to-day basis, people like Ms Starmer will scream and bitch "Sex/race/disabled discrimination" to further themselves beyond their abilities or benefit themselves with little effort.
Perhaps BA should have just given in to her, this would not have allowed Ms Starmer to have so ably screwed her fellow women pilots. The fact that she has become pregnant again proves the utter and total contempt she holds for her employer and her colleagues.
Unfortunately, BA failed to realise that Ms Starmer is "one of those" i.e. someone who is prepared to abuse their position for their own advantage. These people exisit throughout society, they don't have to be female, they can be an ethnic minority/disabled whatever. Whereas the vast majority of people will take their own lives into their hands careerwise or on a day-to-day basis, people like Ms Starmer will scream and bitch "Sex/race/disabled discrimination" to further themselves beyond their abilities or benefit themselves with little effort.
Perhaps BA should have just given in to her, this would not have allowed Ms Starmer to have so ably screwed her fellow women pilots. The fact that she has become pregnant again proves the utter and total contempt she holds for her employer and her colleagues.
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It is good to see that BA's recruitment profiling has worked out perfectly for them, not!
It will be nearly one year since they started their new recruitment campaign, and still it goes on.
Maybe its time for the top brass to take a step back and have a think where they are going wrong!
Trip
It will be nearly one year since they started their new recruitment campaign, and still it goes on.
Maybe its time for the top brass to take a step back and have a think where they are going wrong!
Trip
Está servira para distraerle.
I do sometimes wonder, with a somewhat irascibly raised monocle, what the BA Crew Room atmosphere might be on the appearance of either Captain or First Officer Starmer. Were I to fly for BA and had I the sufficient muscle or seniority to get away with it; I would give serious consideration to writing a letter to my employer informing management that I would have little or no intention of flying with a First Officer whose experience levels fell beneath that required by the company's own excellent standards. The Devil with the tribunal. Little more than a jackass trio of socialist know nothings! It is not their writ to ride roughshod over the level of currency that I, were I flying even as a passenger, would expect from a first level operator and its flight crews.
When I flew part time (50%) through northern winter weather; I used to turn up for work all bright eyed and bushy tailed certainly, but the deterioration in instant expertise was noticeable and I only got away with it because I had a great deal of flight time in such conditions in the first place.
Is it feasible or reasonable to expect BA rostering to bear dear Jess's lack of current experience in mind when the lottery of with whom she shall fly comes around. Zounds. I'm off to catch a gonk.
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The Devil with the tribunal. Little more than a jackass trio of socialist know nothings!
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It has been mentioned severla times in the postings that Mrs. Starmer is expecting her second child. This information comes from those who know her presumably and is therefore accurate.
The cynic in me (an alleged mysoginist) asks.....Was this plan "B" is plan "A" failed? Whatever, it would appear that the situation now existing will cause BA rostering all sorts of problems. They now have to consider a pilot on 75% availability, a pilot on 50% availability, a pilot who is pregnant (can't say I would like to fly with somebody who could throw up at any moment) and, of course, the needs of the first born. Good luck to them because if they get it wrong they will be accused of being vindictive and another tribunal will ensue.
The cynic in me (an alleged mysoginist) asks.....Was this plan "B" is plan "A" failed? Whatever, it would appear that the situation now existing will cause BA rostering all sorts of problems. They now have to consider a pilot on 75% availability, a pilot on 50% availability, a pilot who is pregnant (can't say I would like to fly with somebody who could throw up at any moment) and, of course, the needs of the first born. Good luck to them because if they get it wrong they will be accused of being vindictive and another tribunal will ensue.
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The fact that BA only came up with a 'rule' after her request is irrelevant. In all companies there is a fleet manager/chief pilot/base manager who makes a decision based on the cicumstances of the case and weighs it against company and other financial constraints. Having a rule is totally inflexible and not suitable when it comes to deciding levels of experience based on hours or whatever.
In my book she sounds inexperienced, and should be in the cockpit learning her trade for a few more years before taking time off. She also sounds like an inexperienced mother - perhaps she should be at home learning how to do that properly.
Her court case hasn't helped prospects for all the other female pilots that we have. She clearly wants everybody else (and others in BA) to solve what is essentially her dilemma - career or family.
In my book she sounds inexperienced, and should be in the cockpit learning her trade for a few more years before taking time off. She also sounds like an inexperienced mother - perhaps she should be at home learning how to do that properly.
Her court case hasn't helped prospects for all the other female pilots that we have. She clearly wants everybody else (and others in BA) to solve what is essentially her dilemma - career or family.
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Re: Pregnancy....It is a BA or CAA requirement that no pilot flies once they know that they are pregnant. What normally happens is BA asks them to come into the office a couple of times a week to maintain their pay and the womans' Doctor signs them off with morning sickness so they end up being paid to sit at home.
Please let's not let this thread degenerate into victimising pregnant working women.
BA has a massive problem with this in the CC departments with horrendous percentages of their workforce off at any one time.
This thread should be about the tribunal decision and the seemingly lack of common sense involved. But then again, when was the law ever sensible? I would hope that the same arguements would be made if the person involved was named John X.
Please let's not let this thread degenerate into victimising pregnant working women.
BA has a massive problem with this in the CC departments with horrendous percentages of their workforce off at any one time.
This thread should be about the tribunal decision and the seemingly lack of common sense involved. But then again, when was the law ever sensible? I would hope that the same arguements would be made if the person involved was named John X.