BA Pilot's sex discrimination case. (Update: Now includes Tribunal's judgement)
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Captain Sand Dune
I already know I'm in possession of great dyslectic powers, with no talent for writing at all, but thanks for your advice anyway.
I will try to make my poing short for you:
If more fathers out there where willing to share the responsibility in the domestic areas, the mothers should also just work and keep quiet.
But I guess earth would be a too quiet place if dinosaurs where no longer existing, and stupid young women could keep their mouths shut, and just smile.
I already know I'm in possession of great dyslectic powers, with no talent for writing at all, but thanks for your advice anyway.
I will try to make my poing short for you:
If more fathers out there where willing to share the responsibility in the domestic areas, the mothers should also just work and keep quiet.
But I guess earth would be a too quiet place if dinosaurs where no longer existing, and stupid young women could keep their mouths shut, and just smile.
>>I accept your point but.. Most people with young children will tell you that if you spend 24/7 looking after them your sanity will suffer. Sane parents are better parents.<<
I guess I am not 'Most people' then. My wife and I are presently looking after our two young (under three years) sprogs '24/7'.
I am thoroughly enjoying bringing my children up without the pressure of an airline roster. It is a most rewarding and, at times challenging, experience. Much more so, dare I say, than hanging around crew hotels with folk from work. The time goes very quickly and the treasured moments watching them develop are such happy ones. Also, it brings my wife and I closer together.
I am Big Brother, Nanny and State to my children.
Airline flying can pay you money and reward you professionally. However, for me, the most valuable commodity is time which is irreplaceable.
I guess I am not 'Most people' then. My wife and I are presently looking after our two young (under three years) sprogs '24/7'.
I am thoroughly enjoying bringing my children up without the pressure of an airline roster. It is a most rewarding and, at times challenging, experience. Much more so, dare I say, than hanging around crew hotels with folk from work. The time goes very quickly and the treasured moments watching them develop are such happy ones. Also, it brings my wife and I closer together.
I am Big Brother, Nanny and State to my children.
Airline flying can pay you money and reward you professionally. However, for me, the most valuable commodity is time which is irreplaceable.
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Can you not choose family or career? Why should your employer always have to take on responsibility for your decisions? The pills been around for a long time as has abortion? Meanwhile over at Boeing..........
Race, ethnicity and gender count very much at Boeing. The aerospace giant recently spent $1.3 billion on race-based and gender-based programs. Neither Boeing nor the mainstream press have reported any expenditures whatsoever on programs for white U.S. citizens or Boeing employees or suppliers of Northern European descent.
Boeing is a huge aerospace and government and defense contractor with over $18 billion in contracts.
No fewer than three, huge federal agencies monitor Boeing's employment practices regarding selected minorities: the U.S. Department of Justice, the U.S. EEOC, and the U.S. Department of Labor. A virtual army of tax-supported lawyers and analysts comb through Boeing's personnel records to verify the total number of, and pay scales of, each of the following categories of employee:
Boeing's Preferred Employees and Suppliers:
Black
Asian Pacific American
Subcontinental Asian American
Hispanic American
Native American
Female of any ethnicity
Race, ethnicity and gender count very much at Boeing. The aerospace giant recently spent $1.3 billion on race-based and gender-based programs. Neither Boeing nor the mainstream press have reported any expenditures whatsoever on programs for white U.S. citizens or Boeing employees or suppliers of Northern European descent.
Boeing is a huge aerospace and government and defense contractor with over $18 billion in contracts.
No fewer than three, huge federal agencies monitor Boeing's employment practices regarding selected minorities: the U.S. Department of Justice, the U.S. EEOC, and the U.S. Department of Labor. A virtual army of tax-supported lawyers and analysts comb through Boeing's personnel records to verify the total number of, and pay scales of, each of the following categories of employee:
Boeing's Preferred Employees and Suppliers:
Black
Asian Pacific American
Subcontinental Asian American
Hispanic American
Native American
Female of any ethnicity
Last edited by Onewordanswer; 29th Jan 2005 at 23:24.
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Let's put this another way.
Premiership football club signs a new player. A year later his wife has a baby. Shortly after he says he wants to go part time - ie only play home matches.
Wonder what the reaction might be? Free transfer to Barnet?
But alas life is not that simple is it? The only people who are going to win out of this whole thing are the lawyers.
As a 200 hr fATPL I would give my right arm to be flying A320's at BA. I was about to sit the aptitude tests for the BA Cadet Scheme when 9/11 happened. If JS thinks she worked hard she should try getting a fATPL the way I have.
But I am also mature enough to understand her wishes to spend more time with her child, regardless of whether her decision to have children was a wise one or not.
What's gone before cannot be changed, it's the future that matters. As is too often the case people are unwilling to compromise I feel. A suitable deal perhaps could have been struck along the lines of "you can have 50% provided you make a compromise and move closer to LHR".
(edited for grammer & spelling)
Premiership football club signs a new player. A year later his wife has a baby. Shortly after he says he wants to go part time - ie only play home matches.
Wonder what the reaction might be? Free transfer to Barnet?
But alas life is not that simple is it? The only people who are going to win out of this whole thing are the lawyers.
As a 200 hr fATPL I would give my right arm to be flying A320's at BA. I was about to sit the aptitude tests for the BA Cadet Scheme when 9/11 happened. If JS thinks she worked hard she should try getting a fATPL the way I have.
But I am also mature enough to understand her wishes to spend more time with her child, regardless of whether her decision to have children was a wise one or not.
What's gone before cannot be changed, it's the future that matters. As is too often the case people are unwilling to compromise I feel. A suitable deal perhaps could have been struck along the lines of "you can have 50% provided you make a compromise and move closer to LHR".
(edited for grammer & spelling)
Last edited by timzsta; 31st Jan 2005 at 22:52.
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Trouble is, many modern women have been brought up to believe they can be / do anything they want. Whilst they are not pregnant, this is absolutely true.
Why then does it always seem to come as a big surprise when they realise they are ultimateley the ones to manufacture a baby?
Is this the "moment of truth" that makes some women realise that hey! women are not equal to men because men can bugger off and do whatever they want? At it's most basic level, do I detect a note of jealousy? Tell me I'm wrong!
Why then does it always seem to come as a big surprise when they realise they are ultimateley the ones to manufacture a baby?
Is this the "moment of truth" that makes some women realise that hey! women are not equal to men because men can bugger off and do whatever they want? At it's most basic level, do I detect a note of jealousy? Tell me I'm wrong!
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I've spoken to many BA Airbus pilots about this...
They are livid - and believe BA should throw the book at her and tell her where to go.
Many of them want part-time,and have waited years for it with still no sight of it - she has it after 5 minutes here and demands more....
None of them are behind her, in fact they are all very angry, as they believe she is taking the **** after doing one years work in 4 comparitively.
They are all on max hours, she has virtually done very little compared to them, and has ALREADY got a p/t contract and DEMANDS more....
There is very little/zero suppport for this case from the Airbus pilots at BA - they are very angry it has come to this..................
They are livid - and believe BA should throw the book at her and tell her where to go.
Many of them want part-time,and have waited years for it with still no sight of it - she has it after 5 minutes here and demands more....
None of them are behind her, in fact they are all very angry, as they believe she is taking the **** after doing one years work in 4 comparitively.
They are all on max hours, she has virtually done very little compared to them, and has ALREADY got a p/t contract and DEMANDS more....
There is very little/zero suppport for this case from the Airbus pilots at BA - they are very angry it has come to this..................
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My question is : why do they have kids and then expect the comapines to sort out their problems...?? Going into the aviation industry..she had to of known that kids and full time piloting don´t go that well together... Get rid off her and give the job to someone that needs the time and money...
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There is very little/zero suppport for this case from the Airbus pilots at BA - they are very angry it has come to this..................
So you'll have to modify your latest posting, Anti-ice, if you want to be strictly correct.
Having spoken to senior BA BALPA officials recently they are gobsmacked at the head-in-the sand attitudes displayed by many such as the 'antis' on the forum.
Hey, wannabes. Guess what - airline pilot is a job, just like any other and is subject to UK employment law and Tribunals, just like any other.
BA as an employer is committed to all types of flexible working - I was told this by a manager the other day and it's in the employment bit on the intranet. Seems like some people can't grasp that simple fact.
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An expert in sexual politics told us this was part of a new global trend away from sexual equality and back to treating women as intellectually-inferior walking vaginas. "For the past 50 years or so, the world has flirted with the idea that women are equal to men," he told us. "But we've slowly come to realise that they're too obsessed with their hair to ever be any real use. And then there's the crying and being understanding all the time — apart from when they're on the blob, when they're absolutely nuts. How is a country supposed to function with people like that in positions of responsibility?"
Women's equality gone too far: God
'I never made them for serious work'
by Kieren McCarthy
Feminists were dealt a blow last night when one observer said women's equality in the West had gone too far and new laws were needed to reintroduce the natural status quo.
Incredibly though, this view was not put forward by a Sid the Sexist wannabe but The Lord himself, creator of worlds and the universe's most famous omniscient being: God.
In a prepared statement made at Notre Dame in Paris, God broke over a thousand years of silence to make his non-PC views known. "I should like it to be known to all human beings on the planet Earth — and women in particular — that this recent trend towards giving females enforceable rights of equality on every par goes against the natural order and should henceforth be ended," the statement began.
"I can't for the life of me understand how you have diverted so fast from what is a pretty blooming obvious route. But despite me constantly sending ambassadors to give you a push in the right direction, you've set up a social and legal system that entitles people to possess rights that logic would appear to prohibit.
"The best example of this is women. What on Earth have you got women running the affairs of countries for? You can't have failed to notice that they are completely incapable of rational thinking — what you call logic? Let me let you in a little secret: rationality is the essential element of running any system.
"Not only that but you are forcing yourselves to change your views and traditions because your version of the law says you must. Why have you got women in the armed forces? I never made them for fighting. Look at them for My's sake: huge fleshy mounds everywhere. And sport? Dear oh dear. If they were meant to play sport, I'd have let them throw."
Angry scenes at the press conference sparked God to explain his stance however. "Look, I'm not saying women are inferior. Both sexes are inferior. But women are made to bear children, look after other human beings and mediate disputes when violence is unsuitable. Isn't this bloody obvious? Just look at yourselves."
Despite pressure from short-haired bulldykes, God refused to list men's negative attributes. "Look, I've not into putting people down. I'm just here to sort a few things out." He denied that he was in denial since he had made man in his own image.
The press conference was then hijacked by hordes of blinkered, screaming bigots and freaks who represented the world's religions. The Archbishop of Canterbury elbowed the Pope out the way to ask God to ordain Christianity as the one true religion. "Don't be ridiculous," he told the Archbishop. "Jesus was the start of all this palaver, going on about everyone being equal or whatever it was. That's why I recalled him and sent Mohammed to sort the mess out."
An unidentified Caliph butted in to enquire whether Islam was then indeed the true faith. "Well, the Muslims are not exactly infallible but you are more right than the Christians. At least you kill criminals. That's something that's bothered me for ages — why don't you just kill them? It's not as if there aren't enough of you."
Chief Rabbi Professor Jonathan then asked where this left Judaism. God confessed he still has a soft spot for the Jews whom he said have continued to follow the first set of teachings he laid down when he was last on Earth, but announced he was "disappointed" with their current progress.
God then batted away further questions. "I don't have time for any of this, the missus will go mental if I'm late back. What I'm here to say is sort out this sex situation." This apparent failure to even get the basics right is what has resulted in the creation of TV celebrities, Pot Noodles and the failure of man to find that Pluto is actually made of uranium, providing him with the means to take an interstellar trip to God's own planet where the first arrival will win a special prize, God explained.
"I'll give you a 1,000 years to sort it out," he told the assembled crowd. "If it's still a mess then I'll send down Armageddon to get tough. Okay?"
Women's equality gone too far: God
'I never made them for serious work'
by Kieren McCarthy
Feminists were dealt a blow last night when one observer said women's equality in the West had gone too far and new laws were needed to reintroduce the natural status quo.
Incredibly though, this view was not put forward by a Sid the Sexist wannabe but The Lord himself, creator of worlds and the universe's most famous omniscient being: God.
In a prepared statement made at Notre Dame in Paris, God broke over a thousand years of silence to make his non-PC views known. "I should like it to be known to all human beings on the planet Earth — and women in particular — that this recent trend towards giving females enforceable rights of equality on every par goes against the natural order and should henceforth be ended," the statement began.
"I can't for the life of me understand how you have diverted so fast from what is a pretty blooming obvious route. But despite me constantly sending ambassadors to give you a push in the right direction, you've set up a social and legal system that entitles people to possess rights that logic would appear to prohibit.
"The best example of this is women. What on Earth have you got women running the affairs of countries for? You can't have failed to notice that they are completely incapable of rational thinking — what you call logic? Let me let you in a little secret: rationality is the essential element of running any system.
"Not only that but you are forcing yourselves to change your views and traditions because your version of the law says you must. Why have you got women in the armed forces? I never made them for fighting. Look at them for My's sake: huge fleshy mounds everywhere. And sport? Dear oh dear. If they were meant to play sport, I'd have let them throw."
Angry scenes at the press conference sparked God to explain his stance however. "Look, I'm not saying women are inferior. Both sexes are inferior. But women are made to bear children, look after other human beings and mediate disputes when violence is unsuitable. Isn't this bloody obvious? Just look at yourselves."
Despite pressure from short-haired bulldykes, God refused to list men's negative attributes. "Look, I've not into putting people down. I'm just here to sort a few things out." He denied that he was in denial since he had made man in his own image.
The press conference was then hijacked by hordes of blinkered, screaming bigots and freaks who represented the world's religions. The Archbishop of Canterbury elbowed the Pope out the way to ask God to ordain Christianity as the one true religion. "Don't be ridiculous," he told the Archbishop. "Jesus was the start of all this palaver, going on about everyone being equal or whatever it was. That's why I recalled him and sent Mohammed to sort the mess out."
An unidentified Caliph butted in to enquire whether Islam was then indeed the true faith. "Well, the Muslims are not exactly infallible but you are more right than the Christians. At least you kill criminals. That's something that's bothered me for ages — why don't you just kill them? It's not as if there aren't enough of you."
Chief Rabbi Professor Jonathan then asked where this left Judaism. God confessed he still has a soft spot for the Jews whom he said have continued to follow the first set of teachings he laid down when he was last on Earth, but announced he was "disappointed" with their current progress.
God then batted away further questions. "I don't have time for any of this, the missus will go mental if I'm late back. What I'm here to say is sort out this sex situation." This apparent failure to even get the basics right is what has resulted in the creation of TV celebrities, Pot Noodles and the failure of man to find that Pluto is actually made of uranium, providing him with the means to take an interstellar trip to God's own planet where the first arrival will win a special prize, God explained.
"I'll give you a 1,000 years to sort it out," he told the assembled crowd. "If it's still a mess then I'll send down Armageddon to get tough. Okay?"
Last edited by Onewordanswer; 5th Feb 2005 at 23:40.
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I am astounded at the concept of being able to go to part time. That would never happen here in the good ol' US of A. The beancounters would sh## at the thought of paying a pilot full benefits for part time work. Training expenses alone would put any scheme like that to rest.
And what about her qualifications. No male pilot would ever get hired by a major airline here with only 1000 hours unless they were in the space shuttle. Minimums are usually 2500 hours but minimums are for fighter jocks who typically don't get much total time. She should be grateful that BA hired her with no experience instead of trying to work the system.
We have had a couple of female pilots like that here. Always working the system and can't fly for sh##. Thankfully, the rest of them are great sticks with loads of experience and they work hard and are able to handle their family responsibilities along with their husbands (the ones that do have children). We also have male pilots that work the system and can't fly for sh## as well but that is not the point here.
My wife is a F/A and we have 3 kids at home with the youngest 3 years old. I fly 92 hours a month, she works 60 to 70. We make it work out so that the baby only has to be at the sitters one or two nights a week at most. We can't both be home together all the time but we can still be together more than if I worked in an office 60 hours a week like my neighbors (most are managers or other professionals). To think that my employer would be forced to disrupt my coworkers schedules to accomodate my reproductive urges is just absurd to me. But hey, I live in a country that has G Bush as president.
And what about her qualifications. No male pilot would ever get hired by a major airline here with only 1000 hours unless they were in the space shuttle. Minimums are usually 2500 hours but minimums are for fighter jocks who typically don't get much total time. She should be grateful that BA hired her with no experience instead of trying to work the system.
We have had a couple of female pilots like that here. Always working the system and can't fly for sh##. Thankfully, the rest of them are great sticks with loads of experience and they work hard and are able to handle their family responsibilities along with their husbands (the ones that do have children). We also have male pilots that work the system and can't fly for sh## as well but that is not the point here.
My wife is a F/A and we have 3 kids at home with the youngest 3 years old. I fly 92 hours a month, she works 60 to 70. We make it work out so that the baby only has to be at the sitters one or two nights a week at most. We can't both be home together all the time but we can still be together more than if I worked in an office 60 hours a week like my neighbors (most are managers or other professionals). To think that my employer would be forced to disrupt my coworkers schedules to accomodate my reproductive urges is just absurd to me. But hey, I live in a country that has G Bush as president.
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I now understand why the aviation industry is as shallow as an outback puddle in the dry season. You guys who are against the request of 50% working time I imagine are all for raising children preferably with a parent home a majority of the time. Or at least until it does not appear to disadvantage you in any way.
Love your wife making a comfortable home to return to, looking after the children? What if she had a passion for a job, but it was all or nothing because of corporate policy which in this case is backed by the small minded selfish majority? I suppose she does not have the right to do something that gives her purpose?? Go home and tell your wives or partners that!!! See what reaction you get.
Love your wife making a comfortable home to return to, looking after the children? What if she had a passion for a job, but it was all or nothing because of corporate policy which in this case is backed by the small minded selfish majority? I suppose she does not have the right to do something that gives her purpose?? Go home and tell your wives or partners that!!! See what reaction you get.
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Ant-ice
quote:
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There is very little/zero suppport for this case from the Airbus pilots at BA - they are very angry it has come to this..................
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Well I'm another Airbus pilot at BA and I also support Jessica.
So Anti-ice, you will really have to modify your latest posting as it just ain't correct!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is very little/zero suppport for this case from the Airbus pilots at BA - they are very angry it has come to this..................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I'm another Airbus pilot at BA and I also support Jessica.
So Anti-ice, you will really have to modify your latest posting as it just ain't correct!
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I'm afraid you're way off the mark there Anti-Ice, most do strongly support her.
Yes, crew are operating on max hours, but let us not forget that that was meant to be a 'temporary measure' – a fact that has been conveniently forgotten about since it’s been realised that it really is possible to get blood out of a stone!
The bottom line here is that we have here a very brave individual who is prepared to stand up to the management for what she thinks is right, whilst the rest of us happily ‘put up’ with getting pushed around, made to jump through hoops and having our integrity and professionalism eroded. . . and what happens?
She gets shot down in flames on here by bigots and people whose only experience of being on an airliner is chomping nuts, drinking Bacardi and Pepsi Max and working out cunning, new strategies for how to be the first person through the aircraft door when it lands. Let’s face it, if more people were prepared to stand up to the beancounters, we wouldn’t all be in the mess that we’re in now. . .
BH
Yes, crew are operating on max hours, but let us not forget that that was meant to be a 'temporary measure' – a fact that has been conveniently forgotten about since it’s been realised that it really is possible to get blood out of a stone!
The bottom line here is that we have here a very brave individual who is prepared to stand up to the management for what she thinks is right, whilst the rest of us happily ‘put up’ with getting pushed around, made to jump through hoops and having our integrity and professionalism eroded. . . and what happens?
She gets shot down in flames on here by bigots and people whose only experience of being on an airliner is chomping nuts, drinking Bacardi and Pepsi Max and working out cunning, new strategies for how to be the first person through the aircraft door when it lands. Let’s face it, if more people were prepared to stand up to the beancounters, we wouldn’t all be in the mess that we’re in now. . .
BH