BA Pilot's sex discrimination case. (Update: Now includes Tribunal's judgement)
>>Look at it this way, does anyone out there think this young womans action have improved the chances of airlines recruiting more females?<<
You could argue, that with a guaranteed option of half a line post-partem, the job becomes a much better long term option for women.
If that puts the airlines off recruiting women then they will have to manage the legal implications!
You could argue, that with a guaranteed option of half a line post-partem, the job becomes a much better long term option for women.
If that puts the airlines off recruiting women then they will have to manage the legal implications!
Tabs please !
You could argue, that with a guaranteed option of half a line post-partem, the job becomes a much better long term option for women.
Common sense and economics dictate that you can only have a certain percentage of your workforce working part time and once the limit is reached (say 10%) then that's it folks.......and if you don't like it, vote with your feet and get a job that suits your domestic needs.
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Having just got back online after my laptop was down, and waded through those many pages that have been posted since I last posted, I was wondering (as a student) if anyone could inform me:
1. Why have BALPA chosen to back a case, which by many people cannot be construed as sex discrimination?
2. Why did BALPA not choose to oppose the change in BA rules regarding 50% working, when they were made?
3. Why BA chose to change the rules?
Many thanks in advance, for aiding my understanding of the situation.
Jordan
PS - has this tribunel actually started?
1. Why have BALPA chosen to back a case, which by many people cannot be construed as sex discrimination?
2. Why did BALPA not choose to oppose the change in BA rules regarding 50% working, when they were made?
3. Why BA chose to change the rules?
Many thanks in advance, for aiding my understanding of the situation.
Jordan
PS - has this tribunel actually started?
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half pay?
I will get shot for this but the lady knew the setup when she joined. I am getting tired of the I want time off for my kids and a well paid full time job brigade. You cannot do both. Kids take a lot of time. Jobs take alot of time. 24 hours in a day and 1 has to give way. I believe in equality for women but NOT doing my job and half of theirs too.
Equal pay for equal work and equal availability.
Equal pay for equal work and equal availability.
Está servira para distraerle.
bigflyinggrob
Why should you get shot. You state the truth. So, to perdition and the devil ; I, as a pilot and sometimes a passenger, would never wish for a female up front. they have proved themselves to be always unpredictable and they have a monstrous chip. That is not what I want in my cockpit. My life is short. I don't have the time for them to be re-educated.
Why should you get shot. You state the truth. So, to perdition and the devil ; I, as a pilot and sometimes a passenger, would never wish for a female up front. they have proved themselves to be always unpredictable and they have a monstrous chip. That is not what I want in my cockpit. My life is short. I don't have the time for them to be re-educated.
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Cavortingcheetah
Sorry but I have to take issue with your post. I recently flew to Manchester in one of Big Airways "Iron Chickens" (aka Dash-8) in absolutely dreadful weather. The crew did a superb job in handling the aircraft through significant turbulence and windshear and carried out a perfect landing in very difficult conditions prompting a round of applause from me and the other SLF.
I was the last pax off when the cockpit door opened. I asked which member of the crew handled the approach and landing. The captain turned and grinned at the lady FO who smiled politely.
I'm sure that lady has ovaries of solid steel !
Speaking as a passenger and sometimes (hobby) pilot, I have never met a lady aviator about whom I have had doubts, I wish I could say the same for the blokes.
Sorry but I have to take issue with your post. I recently flew to Manchester in one of Big Airways "Iron Chickens" (aka Dash-8) in absolutely dreadful weather. The crew did a superb job in handling the aircraft through significant turbulence and windshear and carried out a perfect landing in very difficult conditions prompting a round of applause from me and the other SLF.
I was the last pax off when the cockpit door opened. I asked which member of the crew handled the approach and landing. The captain turned and grinned at the lady FO who smiled politely.
I'm sure that lady has ovaries of solid steel !
Speaking as a passenger and sometimes (hobby) pilot, I have never met a lady aviator about whom I have had doubts, I wish I could say the same for the blokes.
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cavortingcheetah,
With an attitude like that, I suppose one can only be thankful that you appear to be no longer flying. . . .
This from your post of 8th January 2004:
Or do you really expect us to believe that you went from a lapsed license to 'Airline Captain' in less than 12 months? 
BH
I, as a pilot and sometimes a passenger, would never wish for a female up front. they have proved themselves to be always unpredictable and they have a monstrous chip. That is not what I want in my cockpit. My life is short. I don't have the time for them to be re-educated
This from your post of 8th January 2004:
Can anyone tell me what the SACAA would requie, apart from a medial, to renew a South African ATPL which expired over two years ago? I have not flown over that time and my UK aTPL has also lapsed. I have their web site but prefer to remain anonymous.
BH
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I thought this was about a pilot's sex discrimination case.
(Sorry to hear about your refreshment towel and aperitif Beagle.)
Big Hilly
The usual, boring band of misoginists and chauvinists?
Is that how you see folks that don't share your opinion about the lady's claim?
Seems to me as someone it don't effect there's been a whole bunch of good arguments on BOTH sides and some bad ones on BOTH sides.
(Sorry to hear about your refreshment towel and aperitif Beagle.)
Big Hilly
The usual, boring band of misoginists and chauvinists?
Is that how you see folks that don't share your opinion about the lady's claim?
Seems to me as someone it don't effect there's been a whole bunch of good arguments on BOTH sides and some bad ones on BOTH sides.
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Bronx,
Far from it! There have been some excellent posts with valid points for both sides of the argument. I was refering to such gems as:
or:
It’s just a shame that a few people on here see it as an opportunity to regurgitate the same, rather sad, tired old nonsense every time an issue involving a Lady Pilot appears on these boards. . . .
BH
The usual, boring band of misoginists and chauvinists? Is that how you see folks that don't share your opinion about the lady's claim?
[I] would never wish for a female up front. they have proved themselves to be always unpredictable’
There is always a place on the flight deck for lady pilots......it makes the overnights much more interesting and besides, there is now someone to do the RT.
BH
Bronx, thank you for your concern...
But it's true that little things mean a lot and continual cut backs on even such small things as I described will eventually drive customers elsewhere. Straws and camels' backs?
It's interesting to note the astonishing dinosaur comments from some on this thread regarding lady pilots. We had several in the military and they were fine; if lady pilots can cope with the stresses and demands of military flying, they can certainly cope with bumbling along the airways in a people tube...
But this young woman does not appear to be doing herself or her peers any favours. What would have been her options in another company? If more generous - or appropriate to her state - than those offered by ba, then perhaps her views could be viewed more sympathetically. But an Employment Tribunal? That's ridiculous; a negotiated settlement should have been possible long before things reached that stage. All this will do is expose her to ridicule.
In the RAF, pilots once used to receive a daily 'flying pay' supplement after gaining their 'wings' - the rules are more complicated these days. But one woman decided to farrow during the period between passing training and starting operational conversion, there being a 12 month 'holding' delay at the time. She was therefore 'unfit for flying duties' - and was most miffed when her flying pay supplement was discontinued; the system had decided that her condition amounted to little more than a 'self-inflicted injury'! Then later, the very day after her 'wings' were confirmed through attaining her Combat Ready status, she announced that she was yet again up the duff. Withdrawn from flying duties, she was then put into an Ops job. Then the RAF decided that they'd got too many pilots, so introduced a redundancy scheme. She left with a considerable sum under this scheme, having contributed absolutely nothing. It's that type of tactical brat-breeding which really gives the ladies a bad reputation even though it's only a devious few who try to milk the system for all they can. The overwhelming majority of lady pilots I've met have been equal to their male peers-except that they don't stink of BO or fart on the flight deck!
Or at least not as often...
But it's true that little things mean a lot and continual cut backs on even such small things as I described will eventually drive customers elsewhere. Straws and camels' backs?It's interesting to note the astonishing dinosaur comments from some on this thread regarding lady pilots. We had several in the military and they were fine; if lady pilots can cope with the stresses and demands of military flying, they can certainly cope with bumbling along the airways in a people tube...
But this young woman does not appear to be doing herself or her peers any favours. What would have been her options in another company? If more generous - or appropriate to her state - than those offered by ba, then perhaps her views could be viewed more sympathetically. But an Employment Tribunal? That's ridiculous; a negotiated settlement should have been possible long before things reached that stage. All this will do is expose her to ridicule.
In the RAF, pilots once used to receive a daily 'flying pay' supplement after gaining their 'wings' - the rules are more complicated these days. But one woman decided to farrow during the period between passing training and starting operational conversion, there being a 12 month 'holding' delay at the time. She was therefore 'unfit for flying duties' - and was most miffed when her flying pay supplement was discontinued; the system had decided that her condition amounted to little more than a 'self-inflicted injury'! Then later, the very day after her 'wings' were confirmed through attaining her Combat Ready status, she announced that she was yet again up the duff. Withdrawn from flying duties, she was then put into an Ops job. Then the RAF decided that they'd got too many pilots, so introduced a redundancy scheme. She left with a considerable sum under this scheme, having contributed absolutely nothing. It's that type of tactical brat-breeding which really gives the ladies a bad reputation even though it's only a devious few who try to milk the system for all they can. The overwhelming majority of lady pilots I've met have been equal to their male peers-except that they don't stink of BO or fart on the flight deck!
Or at least not as often...
Está servira para distraerle.
. 
I suppose that I really do have to reply to the press which my otherwise perhaps ill considered diatribes have given rise. I have managed to get my literacy skills sorted out and apologise for any previous typographical errors.
It constantly strikes me as I peruse Prune that, apart from the moderators, there exists some lack of sense of humour. I have been bailed out by a female pilot once. It was a joy to give her a cuddle and a cup of coffee afterwards. I did not marry her.Ovaries of steel were never to my liking and do not lend themselves to procreation, which, dare I remind everyone, is what this entire shebangie started out life with in the first place.
I suppose that I really do have to reply to the press which my otherwise perhaps ill considered diatribes have given rise. I have managed to get my literacy skills sorted out and apologise for any previous typographical errors.
It constantly strikes me as I peruse Prune that, apart from the moderators, there exists some lack of sense of humour. I have been bailed out by a female pilot once. It was a joy to give her a cuddle and a cup of coffee afterwards. I did not marry her.Ovaries of steel were never to my liking and do not lend themselves to procreation, which, dare I remind everyone, is what this entire shebangie started out life with in the first place.
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MercenaryAli,
Big Hilly gets out plenty but mercifully mixes with people whose idea of a sense of humour isn't stuck in an era where flock wall-paper, flares, Bernard Manning and a Ford Capri Ghia are la mode du jour.
There's a time and a place for such humour, ideally in private, amongst your friends (if that's what floats your boat). Such comments on a public web-site in front of tens of thousands of 'viewers' does little but damage the image and credibility of 'modern-day pilots'.
OK, now, I'll let it go!
BH
Big Hilly gets out plenty but mercifully mixes with people whose idea of a sense of humour isn't stuck in an era where flock wall-paper, flares, Bernard Manning and a Ford Capri Ghia are la mode du jour.
There's a time and a place for such humour, ideally in private, amongst your friends (if that's what floats your boat). Such comments on a public web-site in front of tens of thousands of 'viewers' does little but damage the image and credibility of 'modern-day pilots'.
OK, now, I'll let it go!
BH
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In this world of femalization,people very often says about female salaries being significantly less.
They cost much more to the company.They get pregnant(almost 2 years out), they have to take care of babies, their absentism tax is much higher( see the flight attendants),and they still want the same salaries.
Everybody knows what this life of flying is.She already knew BA`s roster before getting pregnant.
Life is a constant option...
This speech of discrimination irritates me....People know the rules..
Imagine if I have a motorcycle accident and I loose a leg. Then I go to the court sue the company for discrimination with disabled people.
My girlfriend is flight attendant at a major airline ,and she is going to quit flying when the time to be pregnant comes.
If you want to be a good mother you are in the wrong profession.
And as long as you want to be a good profssional you can`t be a good mother .
Nowadays women want everything at the same time.
They have lots of curiosity about becoming pregnant but don`t care about educating after that.
OK the kids are in the best school,but there are things the school will not learn.
I hate this political speech of discrimination....
They cost much more to the company.They get pregnant(almost 2 years out), they have to take care of babies, their absentism tax is much higher( see the flight attendants),and they still want the same salaries.
Everybody knows what this life of flying is.She already knew BA`s roster before getting pregnant.
Life is a constant option...
This speech of discrimination irritates me....People know the rules..
Imagine if I have a motorcycle accident and I loose a leg. Then I go to the court sue the company for discrimination with disabled people.
My girlfriend is flight attendant at a major airline ,and she is going to quit flying when the time to be pregnant comes.
If you want to be a good mother you are in the wrong profession.
And as long as you want to be a good profssional you can`t be a good mother .
Nowadays women want everything at the same time.
They have lots of curiosity about becoming pregnant but don`t care about educating after that.
OK the kids are in the best school,but there are things the school will not learn.
I hate this political speech of discrimination....
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brakedwell,
Just spoken to a chum and apparently the verdict won't be given for about another 4 weeks.
BH
Does anybody know when the ET is expected to pronounce it's verdict? I read somewhere that the hearing was due to end last week.
BH
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A-3TWENTY:
Absolute tosh; the professional knows how to juggle both.
I think you rather underestimate where you came from, and the necessity to slightly subsidise female jobs through maternity leave in any workplace to allow our own society to continue.
With my economist hat on, the growth of the female workforce has been one of the largest drivers of economic growth in recent years through the enhancing of the workforce in numbers and consummate increase in spending power.
There is a way to be sensible without being politically correct, but you are neither - the days of a woman's place in the kitchen are long gone my friend, and you will find yourself very quickly isolated with such an opinion.
In this case, fact is that she knew what was offered when she joined and BA's options for working mothers are pretty good. It is one thing to be accomodating to your career and parenthood and quite another to ask the world to drop to thier knees and work for you.
I rather question her committment to aviation more than anything else.
And as long as you want to be a good professional you can't be a good mother .
I think you rather underestimate where you came from, and the necessity to slightly subsidise female jobs through maternity leave in any workplace to allow our own society to continue.
With my economist hat on, the growth of the female workforce has been one of the largest drivers of economic growth in recent years through the enhancing of the workforce in numbers and consummate increase in spending power.
There is a way to be sensible without being politically correct, but you are neither - the days of a woman's place in the kitchen are long gone my friend, and you will find yourself very quickly isolated with such an opinion.
In this case, fact is that she knew what was offered when she joined and BA's options for working mothers are pretty good. It is one thing to be accomodating to your career and parenthood and quite another to ask the world to drop to thier knees and work for you.
I rather question her committment to aviation more than anything else.
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Re Heat
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There is a way to be sensible without being politically correct, but you are neither - the days of a woman's place in the kitchen are long gone my friend, and you will find yourself very quickly isolated with such an opinion.
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That is a popular misconception put about by pushy females and wimpy blokes! In fact the VAST MAJORITY of women these days still fulfill the role of Mother to their children, wife to their husbands and spend most of their time taking care of business in the home! The children of such homes are better balanced (fact from several independent studies) do better at school than those from fragmented or single parent homes and are LESS LIKELY to become a Divorce (or separation) statistic themselves in adulthood.
Oh! I can hear the sucking of teeth and screams of "Dinosoar" etc etc but whether the wishy washy leftie liberals like it or not it is a fact of life!!
And don't bother with all the acidic personal attack type replies because I don't give a sh 1 t !!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a way to be sensible without being politically correct, but you are neither - the days of a woman's place in the kitchen are long gone my friend, and you will find yourself very quickly isolated with such an opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a popular misconception put about by pushy females and wimpy blokes! In fact the VAST MAJORITY of women these days still fulfill the role of Mother to their children, wife to their husbands and spend most of their time taking care of business in the home! The children of such homes are better balanced (fact from several independent studies) do better at school than those from fragmented or single parent homes and are LESS LIKELY to become a Divorce (or separation) statistic themselves in adulthood.
Oh! I can hear the sucking of teeth and screams of "Dinosoar" etc etc but whether the wishy washy leftie liberals like it or not it is a fact of life!!
And don't bother with all the acidic personal attack type replies because I don't give a sh 1 t !!!