BA Pilot's sex discrimination case. (Update: Now includes Tribunal's judgement)
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If you want to be a good mother you are in the wrong profession.
And as long as you want to be a good profssional you can`t be a good mother .
And as long as you want to be a good profssional you can`t be a good mother .
These days, you have to have a job to deemed worthwhile by your colleages, friends and family. Such a shame that something so important isn't seen as such. Perhaps this case highlights a deeper issue that we should be looking at.
My wife and I have agreed that when we become parents, one of us will stop working, and be a full time parent. It's not that both of us don't love our work, but to be a parent is far more an important task. As such one of us will do it full time.
Quite simply, that's the level of attention it deserves.
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Concur.
The whole thing smacks of the "having my cake and eating it too" syndrome.
IMHO if a couple cannot give to the child-to-be the attention it deserves perhaps they should reconsider.
Do the couple in question merely want the child as a fashionable accessory to be flick-passed to the nanny when it all gets too hard, or are they prepared for the responsibility of raising a child?
I am fortunate enough to be able to adequately provide for my wife and three boys without her having to go out to work. Yes, we could do a lot better than "adequately" if my wife went out to work, but we choose not to.
Intersting to watch the reaction of some women who ask my wife what she does ("stay home and look after the boys, goats and chooks dear!"). "Oh........that's interesting" they sniff......
The whole thing smacks of the "having my cake and eating it too" syndrome.
IMHO if a couple cannot give to the child-to-be the attention it deserves perhaps they should reconsider.
Do the couple in question merely want the child as a fashionable accessory to be flick-passed to the nanny when it all gets too hard, or are they prepared for the responsibility of raising a child?
I am fortunate enough to be able to adequately provide for my wife and three boys without her having to go out to work. Yes, we could do a lot better than "adequately" if my wife went out to work, but we choose not to.
Intersting to watch the reaction of some women who ask my wife what she does ("stay home and look after the boys, goats and chooks dear!"). "Oh........that's interesting" they sniff......
Agreed , Mothers are mothers and cannot work as well . To my mind it's the governments of the world who encourage working mothers who are wrong , greedy and behind all this . They just want the various taxes from the monies earned which they wouldn't have from a non-working mother .
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If you want to be a good mother you are in the wrong profession. And as long as you want to be a good profssional you can`t be a good mother .
You can be a mother and a successful professional.
Jordan
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Missing the Point Jordan D
Yes Yes I am sure your mother is a genius, a wonderful mother and the world's best accountant! Bravo, she has done well and you are obviously well balanced however as so often happens in these matters even you are missing the point.
If ALL women who were mothers went merrilly off to work inevitably leaving behind the children, there would be a big gap in the home life of those children and the father/husband.
Just get real - someone; and tradition has it, whether you like it or not, that women take care of business in the home! It works for the VAST MAJORITY even in the 21st century.
If ALL women who were mothers went merrilly off to work inevitably leaving behind the children, there would be a big gap in the home life of those children and the father/husband.
Just get real - someone; and tradition has it, whether you like it or not, that women take care of business in the home! It works for the VAST MAJORITY even in the 21st century.
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It takes to people to make a child, but I understand that it is only the womans obligation to volunteer for raising that child (made by those two people). That means in this case (like in many others) offering her career, maybe her biggest dream, (oh, I forgot that a womans biggest dreams should have to have a baby), while her husband can work like a pilot or whatever else he want to do, and earn money for his sweet little family.
The men get their cake, and eat it, so what are you screaming so loudly about???
And happily for you, there are a lot of stupid women out there, who give up dreams, and careers to raise children (what do we need them for anyway?). And again, who where talking about eating their cake???
You really know how to do it!
Keep up the good work guys!
The men get their cake, and eat it, so what are you screaming so loudly about???
And happily for you, there are a lot of stupid women out there, who give up dreams, and careers to raise children (what do we need them for anyway?). And again, who where talking about eating their cake???
You really know how to do it!
Keep up the good work guys!
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I understand that it is only the womans obligation to volunteer for raising that child (made by those two people).
And happily for you, there are a lot of stupid women out there, who give up dreams, and careers to raise children
to raise children (what do we need them for anyway?)
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Ahem... er, sorry to be controversial here, but IMHO as a father of two, having children IS a career - full time, rewarding, unpaid yes, but a career all the same. From my, slightly dylsexlic perspective, we are in serious danger in this country of creating "baby farms" to allow parents to carry on having a "career". Childcare is a step in that direction. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of reasons why parents need to continue working, not the least is financial, so I am not knocking what already exists.
But people who are thinking about having their first child would do well to consider what kind of upbringing they want for it first.
It's an easy mistake to think that baby will have to fit in with "our lifestyle" without considering that a new baby IS your lifestyle! I well remember the lady who cheerfully brought her baby to the badminton court. She was not going to let a baby change her life at all. This was fine for three months or so but it was not long before Badminton took second place.
And what's more, this carries on for the next 20 years or so until it begins to be independent. As they get older, the demands on your time change and increase in complexity. And at all ages, they all have an uncanny knack of getting your attention whenever they need something.
However, all new parents have to find these things out for themselves. We are so used to controlling our own lives that we truly cannot imagine BC (before children) how much children really control their parents! Parenthood is the biggest con of all really but survival of our species depends on this blissful ignorance 'cos I'm sure we'd never have children at all if we knew what it is REALLY like!
But people who are thinking about having their first child would do well to consider what kind of upbringing they want for it first.
It's an easy mistake to think that baby will have to fit in with "our lifestyle" without considering that a new baby IS your lifestyle! I well remember the lady who cheerfully brought her baby to the badminton court. She was not going to let a baby change her life at all. This was fine for three months or so but it was not long before Badminton took second place.
And what's more, this carries on for the next 20 years or so until it begins to be independent. As they get older, the demands on your time change and increase in complexity. And at all ages, they all have an uncanny knack of getting your attention whenever they need something.
However, all new parents have to find these things out for themselves. We are so used to controlling our own lives that we truly cannot imagine BC (before children) how much children really control their parents! Parenthood is the biggest con of all really but survival of our species depends on this blissful ignorance 'cos I'm sure we'd never have children at all if we knew what it is REALLY like!
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SLFGuy
Once again not reading the post or not understanding the post!
What you are suggesting is NOT WHAT I wrote!....I praised the lady for doing well if you read it carefully; then read the rest !!
What you are suggesting is NOT WHAT I wrote!....I praised the lady for doing well if you read it carefully; then read the rest !!
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Me again....
The problem with the "femalinists" nowadays is they don`t have ANY idea of what a family is,neither how a couple works .They don`t have ever heard about couple`s team sense.
They get married today because they are curious about.They dream with the party,dressing,flowers,etc. But they have no idea of what a marriage is. And this is the explanation for the numbers of divorces nowadays.(And you may realize almost all femalenists are divorced or alone).
Most of the married women I see today think about "mine" and "yours". Just a few think "ours".
My car,my bank account,my job,etc...
I never said women can`t work. They can and I support this idea.It`s financially better to the couple. If one loose the job, the other can support the expenses.Fine ,no problem at all.
What I`ve said is as long as you want to have a baby ,you have look after him.
To me ,looking the financial side is worst.We will have a reduced income.
But,to see my children growing up with my education and values and my wife`s has no price.
I`d rather have an older car.
Schools learns writing,cience ,math,etc.
Values is a parent`s duty.
Normally mothers look after children because they get lower salaries.It`s inteligent to keep the one who gets more working.
I think the mothers work is `wonderful.
Much more important to the children than mine.
We are a team.I go hunt money and she looks after the kids.
My girlfriend has completed the university,is flight attendent at a major airline and is intelligent enough to understand and agree with my point of view.
She is graduated...after a few years she can look for a part time while children are at school.
I also know there are people who don`t have a choice .They both really have to work.In this case....
But I can support a family and I think all the pilots still can.
Thanks God I`m writing behind a nickname otherwise I would have a femalenists comitee just below my window..
They get married today because they are curious about.They dream with the party,dressing,flowers,etc. But they have no idea of what a marriage is. And this is the explanation for the numbers of divorces nowadays.(And you may realize almost all femalenists are divorced or alone).
Most of the married women I see today think about "mine" and "yours". Just a few think "ours".
My car,my bank account,my job,etc...
I never said women can`t work. They can and I support this idea.It`s financially better to the couple. If one loose the job, the other can support the expenses.Fine ,no problem at all.
What I`ve said is as long as you want to have a baby ,you have look after him.
To me ,looking the financial side is worst.We will have a reduced income.
But,to see my children growing up with my education and values and my wife`s has no price.
I`d rather have an older car.
Schools learns writing,cience ,math,etc.
Values is a parent`s duty.
Normally mothers look after children because they get lower salaries.It`s inteligent to keep the one who gets more working.
I think the mothers work is `wonderful.
Much more important to the children than mine.
We are a team.I go hunt money and she looks after the kids.
My girlfriend has completed the university,is flight attendent at a major airline and is intelligent enough to understand and agree with my point of view.
She is graduated...after a few years she can look for a part time while children are at school.
I also know there are people who don`t have a choice .They both really have to work.In this case....
But I can support a family and I think all the pilots still can.
Thanks God I`m writing behind a nickname otherwise I would have a femalenists comitee just below my window..
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A-3TWENTY
I am glad you have such a nice girlfriend, that will work parttime to look after the children. Lukily (probably for all parts of the society) there are a lot of women who wants to work part time to take care of the family. But if family is teamwork, wouldn't it be fair that just as many men woriking parttime, to take care of the family, and women working full time?
I dream about making my living by being a pilot, because flying is what I love to do. And I have gotten my warnings, that being a gal, you can forget about being a suksessful pilot and have a familylife at the same time .
So, I will not make the statitics of happy married couples look better, probably I will never come to that point anyway. You can call me a feminist, or whatever you like. I just want the same opportunities as the boys, although they can be fulltime captains and still have a family.
But if they can't work part-time, forgetting about having a familylife is what it takes to be a woman pilot these days, and I will forget about that family, no doubt!!!
Stupid, young girl who also wants the piece of the cake.
I am glad you have such a nice girlfriend, that will work parttime to look after the children. Lukily (probably for all parts of the society) there are a lot of women who wants to work part time to take care of the family. But if family is teamwork, wouldn't it be fair that just as many men woriking parttime, to take care of the family, and women working full time?
I dream about making my living by being a pilot, because flying is what I love to do. And I have gotten my warnings, that being a gal, you can forget about being a suksessful pilot and have a familylife at the same time .
So, I will not make the statitics of happy married couples look better, probably I will never come to that point anyway. You can call me a feminist, or whatever you like. I just want the same opportunities as the boys, although they can be fulltime captains and still have a family.
But if they can't work part-time, forgetting about having a familylife is what it takes to be a woman pilot these days, and I will forget about that family, no doubt!!!
Stupid, young girl who also wants the piece of the cake.
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When we join BA, we are ALL aware that for five years, we work where ever and on which ever fleet the company chooses. I do not see why this should not apply to part time work applications too. And I do not see why this is in any way discriminatory?
I do not know why the company did not just state this, rather than the apparent change to the minimum hours ruling for 50% part timers?
I do not know why the company did not just state this, rather than the apparent change to the minimum hours ruling for 50% part timers?
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femno,
I wish you the best of luck in achieving your stated aims. For the record, I have no problem with women aviators. My point is that when children are bought into the equation, they (the children, that is) come first. Passing on the responsibility of raising a child to a nanny while both parents pursue careers is just not fair on the child. Note that word "responsibility".
Clearly you do not wish to have children. For that I am grateful. Do not think less of those who elect to put their children first.
A crusty 747 skipper once told me: "mate, anyone with a PPL can fly one of these things. We're looking for someone who won't drive us nuts on a 13 hour leg!" I'm sure BA aren't looking for Germain Greer with a CPL.
The ability to spell correctly and string a coherent sentence together may also help to impress your prospective employers.
I wish you the best of luck in achieving your stated aims. For the record, I have no problem with women aviators. My point is that when children are bought into the equation, they (the children, that is) come first. Passing on the responsibility of raising a child to a nanny while both parents pursue careers is just not fair on the child. Note that word "responsibility".
children (what do we need them for anyway?)
So, I will not make the statitics of happy married couples look better, probably I will never come to that point anyway
A crusty 747 skipper once told me: "mate, anyone with a PPL can fly one of these things. We're looking for someone who won't drive us nuts on a 13 hour leg!" I'm sure BA aren't looking for Germain Greer with a CPL.
The ability to spell correctly and string a coherent sentence together may also help to impress your prospective employers.
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M Ali:
Would you lack such independence to be able to support yourself at home as a father/husband?
Surely the basis of family life is teamwork - bet it has never crossed your mind to go part-time if you will/do have kids?
Much of the above appears to be all of us trying to act as the authority on child and family psychology, about which most of us can wholly admit that we know nothing. Perhaps rather than patronising conjecture on the place of the female, we could all be doing something to ensure that we don't result in a future divorces ourselves.
For a male-dominated industry, this thread really makes aviation appear stone age.
Now off to tell my girlfriend how pointless it is in her building her career...
PS, in this case I do not support the actions of the woman taking BA to tribunal - on the merits of what has been said, she needs to sort out her priorities
What Arkroyal mentioned a few thread back about family being a responsiblity and not a right is entirely correct - there needs be a line drawn somewhere to prevent a tide of PR crap.
The answer is always a balance.
If ALL women who were mothers went merrilly off to work inevitably leaving behind the children, there would be a big gap in the home life of those children and the father/husband.
Surely the basis of family life is teamwork - bet it has never crossed your mind to go part-time if you will/do have kids?
Much of the above appears to be all of us trying to act as the authority on child and family psychology, about which most of us can wholly admit that we know nothing. Perhaps rather than patronising conjecture on the place of the female, we could all be doing something to ensure that we don't result in a future divorces ourselves.
For a male-dominated industry, this thread really makes aviation appear stone age.
Now off to tell my girlfriend how pointless it is in her building her career...
PS, in this case I do not support the actions of the woman taking BA to tribunal - on the merits of what has been said, she needs to sort out her priorities
What Arkroyal mentioned a few thread back about family being a responsiblity and not a right is entirely correct - there needs be a line drawn somewhere to prevent a tide of PR crap.
The answer is always a balance.
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My point is that when children are bought into the equation, they (the children, that is) come first.