PAN-PAN Medical Emergency
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAN-PAN Medical Emergency
Afternoon Folks!
Imposter ATCO alert.... I'm a London terminal control bod and just woken up after my night shift, and I'm just trying to make our lives that little bit easier and increase mutual understanding etc etc.....
This morning had a LL inbound arriving just after the gates opened and about 40 miles before OCK the chap in question (you know who you are!!) declared a 'medical emergency' with a sick pax.
The reason for my post is that our hands are tied you see. These days the term 'medical emergency' technically carries as much of the proverbial welly as 'fuel emergency' - ie. none. It is a very minor point I realise, but the only call which will automatically give you priority is a PAN-PAN or MAYDAY. Just declaring a med emergency is more likely going to result in the ATCO trying to get you to say P-P on the tapes, further wasting your time and causing confusion at a point when I'm sure both sides would prefer to be making arrangements for your expeditious arrival.
I realise it seems ludicrous but there have been instances where a 'med emergency' has been loosely called shortly after 20 minute delays have been advised to the crew - convenient! I'm sure you can imagine how much work is caused when the system designed to handle a/c in a orderly manner has to make the 23rd in line the new number 1. (If you can't please do come and visit us at TC). By just giving us a PAN-PAN due to sick pax the ball will get rolling that little bit quicker and we can all have a slightly easier life!
Kind regards
PS. Hope the pax was ok
Imposter ATCO alert.... I'm a London terminal control bod and just woken up after my night shift, and I'm just trying to make our lives that little bit easier and increase mutual understanding etc etc.....
This morning had a LL inbound arriving just after the gates opened and about 40 miles before OCK the chap in question (you know who you are!!) declared a 'medical emergency' with a sick pax.
The reason for my post is that our hands are tied you see. These days the term 'medical emergency' technically carries as much of the proverbial welly as 'fuel emergency' - ie. none. It is a very minor point I realise, but the only call which will automatically give you priority is a PAN-PAN or MAYDAY. Just declaring a med emergency is more likely going to result in the ATCO trying to get you to say P-P on the tapes, further wasting your time and causing confusion at a point when I'm sure both sides would prefer to be making arrangements for your expeditious arrival.
I realise it seems ludicrous but there have been instances where a 'med emergency' has been loosely called shortly after 20 minute delays have been advised to the crew - convenient! I'm sure you can imagine how much work is caused when the system designed to handle a/c in a orderly manner has to make the 23rd in line the new number 1. (If you can't please do come and visit us at TC). By just giving us a PAN-PAN due to sick pax the ball will get rolling that little bit quicker and we can all have a slightly easier life!
Kind regards
PS. Hope the pax was ok
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Glad we don't dwell on such R/T technicalities in an emergency situation in most other parts of the world, thanks for the update, I'll be flying through your airspace in a few hours.
>>I realise it seems ludicrous but there have been instances where a 'med emergency' has been loosely called shortly after 20 minute delays have been advised to the crew - convenient! <<
I sure understand how the level of urgency can be misrepresented by pilots running late for a commute back home. Still, I've sure been hesitant to ask for priority handling with a real problem onboard if it looks like we're getting in with no delay. If delays are announced, it does put me in a somewhat suspicious situation if I then request priority, as you point out.
If you called Pan-Pan in the U.S., most folks wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.
>>I realise it seems ludicrous but there have been instances where a 'med emergency' has been loosely called shortly after 20 minute delays have been advised to the crew - convenient! <<
I sure understand how the level of urgency can be misrepresented by pilots running late for a commute back home. Still, I've sure been hesitant to ask for priority handling with a real problem onboard if it looks like we're getting in with no delay. If delays are announced, it does put me in a somewhat suspicious situation if I then request priority, as you point out.
If you called Pan-Pan in the U.S., most folks wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.
Last edited by Airbubba; 8th Dec 2004 at 12:36.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it's the guy I heard, he mentioned on first contact that he may have a medical problem. The controller asked if he was declaring an emergency to which he said no and would keep him advised. My understanding has always been (evidently correct) that ATC won't do anything special for you in this case unless you mention the P or M words.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One additional point...
>>> Still, I've sure been hesitant to ask for priority handling with a real problem onboard if it looks like we're getting in with no delay. If delays are announced, it does put me in a somewhat suspicious situation if I then request priority, as you point out.
Just to clarify, if any a/c actually declares a PAN (or MAYDAY), be it just after the delay has been announced or 2 miles short of the hold, or indeed when you're the only a/c on frequency, no controller would question your judgement. As far as we're concerned if you declared either we'll offer every possible assistance and the seas will part - no question
Just to clarify, if any a/c actually declares a PAN (or MAYDAY), be it just after the delay has been announced or 2 miles short of the hold, or indeed when you're the only a/c on frequency, no controller would question your judgement. As far as we're concerned if you declared either we'll offer every possible assistance and the seas will part - no question
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that clarification Cartman.
I declared a medical emergency to Shanwick 2 weeks ago during a transatlantic sector. They were very helpful and relayed our problem to London and allowed us to increase to our max mach.
On handover to London, the controller advised that there was currently a 15 minute arrival delay into LGW and if even though he understood that we had a medical emergency, unless we declared a pan or mayday, then we would not be treated as a priority.
We declared a pan and were treated expeditiously by London as a priority.
I declared a medical emergency to Shanwick 2 weeks ago during a transatlantic sector. They were very helpful and relayed our problem to London and allowed us to increase to our max mach.
On handover to London, the controller advised that there was currently a 15 minute arrival delay into LGW and if even though he understood that we had a medical emergency, unless we declared a pan or mayday, then we would not be treated as a priority.
We declared a pan and were treated expeditiously by London as a priority.
Guest
Posts: n/a
In the nautical world there are strictly two types of Pan call. The Pan Pan which describes an Urgent situation, there is also a Pan Pan Medico call. This latter call is intended for those vessels where they require medical advice for an ill or injured person on board. These calls are routed via the jolly old CG to one of two hospitals where an on call doctor can provide treatment advice and/or will recommend evac or similar.
Just thought you might be interested.
Just thought you might be interested.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an aside at LHR if you want paramedics on arrival you have to declare a medical emergency/pan/mayday/start screaming or whatever.
No paramedics based at LHR despite it being the size of a small town!
NN
No paramedics based at LHR despite it being the size of a small town!
NN
Nice
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: All Over
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
normal_nigel,
I think the info about Paramedics not being based at LHR is incorrect, I was working with a chap today who was telling me about his days working at LHR ambulance station and I got the impression it was within the confines of the airport, however will clarify when we are rostered on together next.
Someone will probably do that for me as I've just checked my diary and its not until next week !
I think the info about Paramedics not being based at LHR is incorrect, I was working with a chap today who was telling me about his days working at LHR ambulance station and I got the impression it was within the confines of the airport, however will clarify when we are rostered on together next.
Someone will probably do that for me as I've just checked my diary and its not until next week !
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you called Pan-Pan in the U.S., most folks wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you called Pan-Pan in the US most folks wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about
Airclues
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Europe
Age: 54
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello to you all,
thanks for the clarification for the Pan or the mayday, we all need some reminders...
The question raised is what sort of priority do you get from ATC when you are a "medical flight" carrying a heart or other body parts to save somebody's live at your dest? Just those two words gave me plenty of priorities in the past. And we never declared a pan or a mayday ( as by definitions it's for the flight safety itself) .
Cheers
Falconpilot ( yes I'm an old viper driver that switch to civilian)
thanks for the clarification for the Pan or the mayday, we all need some reminders...
The question raised is what sort of priority do you get from ATC when you are a "medical flight" carrying a heart or other body parts to save somebody's live at your dest? Just those two words gave me plenty of priorities in the past. And we never declared a pan or a mayday ( as by definitions it's for the flight safety itself) .
Cheers
Falconpilot ( yes I'm an old viper driver that switch to civilian)
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The point being, and often pointed out in our sims,that PAN may go unrecognised in many parts of the world.
One example is Maquettia control (CCS) who barely recognise a non-emergency word. I doubt PAN would get past them.
3xMAYDAY may just work.
Actually does anyone think the Spanish controllers would recognise PAN??
NN
One example is Maquettia control (CCS) who barely recognise a non-emergency word. I doubt PAN would get past them.
3xMAYDAY may just work.
Actually does anyone think the Spanish controllers would recognise PAN??
NN
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: England
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Feet Dry mentions about pan-pan medical being used in the nautical world....
I believe under JAA the term is used, but only to a medical transport flight pursuant to the 1949 Geneva convention.
In my understanding this is for when you have a sick bod onboard from start to finish, or if you are presumably SAR with wounded on board or carrying live organs etc. Maybe someone from ATC can confirm this, I believe the idea is that they give you priority routing but know you obviously are going to be there in advance so in some ways can "plan" for you. I don't think it is phraseology that would be used in the situation described above, again if someone from ATC side can maybe clear this up.
cheers
Bigair
I believe under JAA the term is used, but only to a medical transport flight pursuant to the 1949 Geneva convention.
In my understanding this is for when you have a sick bod onboard from start to finish, or if you are presumably SAR with wounded on board or carrying live organs etc. Maybe someone from ATC can confirm this, I believe the idea is that they give you priority routing but know you obviously are going to be there in advance so in some ways can "plan" for you. I don't think it is phraseology that would be used in the situation described above, again if someone from ATC side can maybe clear this up.
cheers
Bigair
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Freeway/Falconpilot
Freeway, when is a medical emergency a real emergency?.....that is a problem for ATC.
If it is that urgent why do you chaps fly over some of the finest medical treatment in Europe to get to your original destination?
Some years ago we were inundated with medical emergency calls to the point where we had to prioritise one from the other; we are not doctors, and one of the simplest ways to filter out the not-too-serious cases is to put the onus on the pilot [probably after consultation with the company] to help us define the seriousness of the situation......if you declare PAN we know you mean it......and a wondrous set of procedures and co-ordinations takes place behind the scenes.....you may be asked to squawk 7700 as a means of letting other traffic sectors and other ATC agencies know not to bother the handling controller....short term flow restrictions may be put in place to protect your transit and expeditious handling from sector to sector.
We don't double guess the call or question the validity of it...we go for it big time.....that is what we are trained to do.
Falconpilot. your flightplan will include the term "Hosp Flt" or similar, and that information is known to the controller. Anything within the rules will be done to expedite your flight; sometimes we may even arrange a short cut with the military for all or part of your route.....London and Swanwick mil are really very good in this respect. Some companies use a callsign highlight on first contact or even as part of the callsign proper.
If it is that urgent why do you chaps fly over some of the finest medical treatment in Europe to get to your original destination?
Some years ago we were inundated with medical emergency calls to the point where we had to prioritise one from the other; we are not doctors, and one of the simplest ways to filter out the not-too-serious cases is to put the onus on the pilot [probably after consultation with the company] to help us define the seriousness of the situation......if you declare PAN we know you mean it......and a wondrous set of procedures and co-ordinations takes place behind the scenes.....you may be asked to squawk 7700 as a means of letting other traffic sectors and other ATC agencies know not to bother the handling controller....short term flow restrictions may be put in place to protect your transit and expeditious handling from sector to sector.
We don't double guess the call or question the validity of it...we go for it big time.....that is what we are trained to do.
Falconpilot. your flightplan will include the term "Hosp Flt" or similar, and that information is known to the controller. Anything within the rules will be done to expedite your flight; sometimes we may even arrange a short cut with the military for all or part of your route.....London and Swanwick mil are really very good in this respect. Some companies use a callsign highlight on first contact or even as part of the callsign proper.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falconpilot. If you say 'Medical Flight' going into the London TMA, you will receive no priority at all, just the same as if you say we have a'VIP' onboard. No Priority.
If you are carrying human organs etc, if you consider it is 'urgent' that you need to be on the ground ASAP, then call PAN and we will not question it, you will have No Delay.
If in doubt, tell us in plain English and everything possible will be done for you.
However, please tell us as soon as you know you need a priority approach so that we can plan around it.
I would much rather be told when you are lots of miles out than when you are at the top of a stack, having just been given a 15 min delay.
Sometimes the info does not get through properly, so if you enter a 'new country' (Air Traffic Control Centre), makes sure your requiements are known. This may even mean getting your Company to phone TC.
If you are carrying human organs etc, if you consider it is 'urgent' that you need to be on the ground ASAP, then call PAN and we will not question it, you will have No Delay.
If in doubt, tell us in plain English and everything possible will be done for you.
However, please tell us as soon as you know you need a priority approach so that we can plan around it.
I would much rather be told when you are lots of miles out than when you are at the top of a stack, having just been given a 15 min delay.
Sometimes the info does not get through properly, so if you enter a 'new country' (Air Traffic Control Centre), makes sure your requiements are known. This may even mean getting your Company to phone TC.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On leave at last!!!!!
Morning all!
I'm glad this post's taken off....
I agree with the previous post using the cunning disguise 055166k - where did that come from!
My understanding (and I'm sure you dont need to be invited to correct me) is that a vast majority of airlines subscribe to a third party medical org in America (I think) who use info provided by the persons on board to attempt a diagnosis and take responsibility for deciding what should or shouldn't be done regarding declaring anything, diverting etc. They've a huge database of all the facilities available worldwide down to the contents of your secret medical kit under the stairs (you see I know!)
This takes the liability away from the airlines and keeps the lawyers happy! As an aside I have to agree with 08764545412454578745k that I do sometimes wonder why almost all flights (for example) zoom straight past Gatwick on their way to deliver a critically ill patient to the centre of London!!
Pan-Pan is (or should be) a globally recognised term, and although I've no doubt some parts of the world may not have a Scooby what you're talking about. I'd certainly hope America wasn't one of the offending parties... Mind you, when it comes to unilateral decisions......!
Regarding what actually happens if a PAN is called it varies slightly depending upon conditions but I doubt many pilots fully understand how much effort is put in to save as much time as possible (not that it's your job of course!). Suffice it to say we do all we can and unless you're unfortunate enough to coincide with a MAYDAY, you'll be wheels down as soon as humanly possible.
I'm glad this post's taken off....
I agree with the previous post using the cunning disguise 055166k - where did that come from!
My understanding (and I'm sure you dont need to be invited to correct me) is that a vast majority of airlines subscribe to a third party medical org in America (I think) who use info provided by the persons on board to attempt a diagnosis and take responsibility for deciding what should or shouldn't be done regarding declaring anything, diverting etc. They've a huge database of all the facilities available worldwide down to the contents of your secret medical kit under the stairs (you see I know!)
This takes the liability away from the airlines and keeps the lawyers happy! As an aside I have to agree with 08764545412454578745k that I do sometimes wonder why almost all flights (for example) zoom straight past Gatwick on their way to deliver a critically ill patient to the centre of London!!
Pan-Pan is (or should be) a globally recognised term, and although I've no doubt some parts of the world may not have a Scooby what you're talking about. I'd certainly hope America wasn't one of the offending parties... Mind you, when it comes to unilateral decisions......!
Regarding what actually happens if a PAN is called it varies slightly depending upon conditions but I doubt many pilots fully understand how much effort is put in to save as much time as possible (not that it's your job of course!). Suffice it to say we do all we can and unless you're unfortunate enough to coincide with a MAYDAY, you'll be wheels down as soon as humanly possible.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Middle East
Posts: 1,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can assure you that the term Pan is not a well rehearsed procedure for getting ATC attention with the US military in this region, and this is based on experience not hearsay....on a daily basis!
Every other word that sorta sounds like we have a problem is transmitted until you basically put the words into their mikes for them so you can afford the appropriate level of priority. RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, UAE, Omani, Italian, Canadian and others through this patch are all familiar and have at various times conformed to the International conventions of seeking priority handling and duely looked after, these obviously are not needed by "Due Regard" operating aircraft from the land of the free.
Every other word that sorta sounds like we have a problem is transmitted until you basically put the words into their mikes for them so you can afford the appropriate level of priority. RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, UAE, Omani, Italian, Canadian and others through this patch are all familiar and have at various times conformed to the International conventions of seeking priority handling and duely looked after, these obviously are not needed by "Due Regard" operating aircraft from the land of the free.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Ambulance flights including Organ transfer are afforded priority A (highest priority) by UK ATC provided that "safety of life is involved".
This basically means that a flight rushing a heart to an urgent life saving operation will get highest prioprity but the flight bringing some young buck back from the ski slopes with a leg in plaster will not be deserving of the same priority.
Unfortunately, in both cases, the flight plan often will be annotated sts/hosp flight.
However the important thing is that they are totally different from an unexpected medical problem in flight.
I also can't see why crews declare a pan medical emergency and then bypass suitable enroute alternates.........I would not however say bypassing Gatwick to get to Heathrow makes much difference.
It would not be appropriate to declare a Mayday for an inflight medical emergency unless it is the pilots who have the problem because having someone sick down the back does not place the aircraft in "Grave and imminent danger" no matter how bad they are.
Regards,
DFC
This basically means that a flight rushing a heart to an urgent life saving operation will get highest prioprity but the flight bringing some young buck back from the ski slopes with a leg in plaster will not be deserving of the same priority.
Unfortunately, in both cases, the flight plan often will be annotated sts/hosp flight.
However the important thing is that they are totally different from an unexpected medical problem in flight.
I also can't see why crews declare a pan medical emergency and then bypass suitable enroute alternates.........I would not however say bypassing Gatwick to get to Heathrow makes much difference.
It would not be appropriate to declare a Mayday for an inflight medical emergency unless it is the pilots who have the problem because having someone sick down the back does not place the aircraft in "Grave and imminent danger" no matter how bad they are.
Regards,
DFC