PAN-PAN Medical Emergency
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Bypassing alternative medical facilities to get to LHR is all the more surprising when you consider that the chances are the patient will end up in the West Middlesex Hospital. Local residents will know what I mean.
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Silly question but does anyone actually monitor, record & investigate these types of medical emergencies that arrive at airports, certainly UK ones. What is the procedure when arriving say at LHR with a medical emergency, apart from medics waiting aside the gate - who else is there to make a report or log the event to see if there was such medical problem in the first instance?
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Normal Nigel
Actually yes. I had to declare a 'PAN' about a month ago en-route LIS-LHR and diverted SCQ with a medical problem to a pax.
The handling by Madrid Control was excellent and we landed about 15 minutes later from FL360. Sadly the young boy died 4 days later. The ambulance arrived about 5 minutes after chox - I doubt LHR and LAS would better that.
Actually does anyone think the Spanish controllers would recognise PAN??
The handling by Madrid Control was excellent and we landed about 15 minutes later from FL360. Sadly the young boy died 4 days later. The ambulance arrived about 5 minutes after chox - I doubt LHR and LAS would better that.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Not going to get involved in this one due to certain bias...
But doesn't MAYDAY include grave or imminent danger to LIFE as well as/opposed to just the vessel?
PW
But doesn't MAYDAY include grave or imminent danger to LIFE as well as/opposed to just the vessel?
PW
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Came back on the forum two days later, and after some discussions with my colleagues on the topic...
Thanks for all your answers guys. Therefore "pan pan medical" is the best answer to my question.
Pass this on...
Salud.
Falconpilot.
Thanks for all your answers guys. Therefore "pan pan medical" is the best answer to my question.
Pass this on...
Salud.
Falconpilot.
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PAN's are fully logged and investigated. The Capt and the controller who first acknowledges the call log reports.
Regarding the Wolf Like Pilot, you are quite right. MAYDAY can refer to Grave and Imminent Danger of an individual. Generally, my understanding is that it would only be called by an aircraft if it was likely to affect the safety of the plane itself, eg when a pilot has been incapacitated.
And although we deal with PAN PAX calls very seriously, one of the only times they wouldn't receive the highest priority is when there is another aircraft who is having problems staying up there in the first place...
Going on to Falconpilot's last. A PAN PAN Medical is certainly something I'd fully understand. If an a/c just declares "PAN..." the controller would always need more information anyway. In most cases I've born witness too, the pilots notify ATC as soon as they have a potential medical problem on board and a period of time later you receive a call like:
"VIR601, we're declaring a PAN due to our sick passenger..."
A bit non-standard maybe, but it's understood. The only time I've heard "PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN....." was when the aircraft itself was in trouble, and the pilots were a little more 'focussed'!
Seems like this post has actually done some good!!
Regarding the Wolf Like Pilot, you are quite right. MAYDAY can refer to Grave and Imminent Danger of an individual. Generally, my understanding is that it would only be called by an aircraft if it was likely to affect the safety of the plane itself, eg when a pilot has been incapacitated.
And although we deal with PAN PAX calls very seriously, one of the only times they wouldn't receive the highest priority is when there is another aircraft who is having problems staying up there in the first place...
Going on to Falconpilot's last. A PAN PAN Medical is certainly something I'd fully understand. If an a/c just declares "PAN..." the controller would always need more information anyway. In most cases I've born witness too, the pilots notify ATC as soon as they have a potential medical problem on board and a period of time later you receive a call like:
"VIR601, we're declaring a PAN due to our sick passenger..."
A bit non-standard maybe, but it's understood. The only time I've heard "PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN....." was when the aircraft itself was in trouble, and the pilots were a little more 'focussed'!
Seems like this post has actually done some good!!
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This is a very informative discussion. Regarding using PAN and MAYDAY in the U.S., I believe we are a little more pragmatic, and "DECLARING AN EMERGENCY" is used more than MAYDAY. In 37 years of flying in the U.S. I have never heard PAN used, though it was mentioned in ground school for my private license.
I had to declare an emergency departing RAF Akrotiri about two years ago, and directed my FO to "declare an emergency," which he did, in those words. The very talented and professional RAF controller understood those words without a hitch- bless him!
Check 6
I had to declare an emergency departing RAF Akrotiri about two years ago, and directed my FO to "declare an emergency," which he did, in those words. The very talented and professional RAF controller understood those words without a hitch- bless him!
Check 6
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Check 6
Glad you're finding it informative...
In the past 6 months I've heard maybe 15 PAN calls and 1 MAYDAY. Admitedly over half have probably said 'declaring a medical/emergency' but have had to be prompted to say the hallowed word 'PAN'
In the past 6 months I've heard maybe 15 PAN calls and 1 MAYDAY. Admitedly over half have probably said 'declaring a medical/emergency' but have had to be prompted to say the hallowed word 'PAN'
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Cartman's Twin Wolf-Like pilot?! Only on full moons!
Think there is the commercial aspect to be considered here too. A couple of years ago I was a transatlantic pax who had to use the day job skills to treat a patient. On discussion with the flight deck crew I sensed a reluctance to seek advise from the ground unless unavoidable due to the probably insistance to land ASAP to avoid potential litigation. As it happened there was no need for either and the patient made a full recovery. Need to add though it was made very clear that the decision to divert was mine and I only needed to say the word regardlless of any incurred delays or costs.
But... thanks to the increased use of Medlink I think there are an awful lot of ambulance responses to flights, including diversions that are unnecessary. Again I can only assume this removes the risk of legal action as it is very difficult to diagnose accurately via RT/phone, especially if the signs and symptons are being taken/described by non medical personnel. Had one last summer for a 4 day old mosquito bite....
Also guess its un-official but GMC at LGW always seem to give priority to medical emergency traffic.
Maybe airlines should employ paramedics to fly on all long haul routes just in case! I only need to give 1 months notice....
PW
Think there is the commercial aspect to be considered here too. A couple of years ago I was a transatlantic pax who had to use the day job skills to treat a patient. On discussion with the flight deck crew I sensed a reluctance to seek advise from the ground unless unavoidable due to the probably insistance to land ASAP to avoid potential litigation. As it happened there was no need for either and the patient made a full recovery. Need to add though it was made very clear that the decision to divert was mine and I only needed to say the word regardlless of any incurred delays or costs.
But... thanks to the increased use of Medlink I think there are an awful lot of ambulance responses to flights, including diversions that are unnecessary. Again I can only assume this removes the risk of legal action as it is very difficult to diagnose accurately via RT/phone, especially if the signs and symptons are being taken/described by non medical personnel. Had one last summer for a 4 day old mosquito bite....
Also guess its un-official but GMC at LGW always seem to give priority to medical emergency traffic.
Maybe airlines should employ paramedics to fly on all long haul routes just in case! I only need to give 1 months notice....
PW
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In the land of Flying Doctors, we've a well established priority system of MED1 and MED2 medical emergency designators. Not at all sure if there is any ICAO equivalent obviously nothing similar in the UK. Without getting the definitions, MED1 are life-critical flights, and are afforded the highest priority in Australia under aircraft in distress (MAYDAY/PAN). The seas won't generally part but they mostly get no delay. MED2 are ambulance flights of lesser urgency and are afforded the same priority as RPT.
Avoid imitations
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Pilot: PAN PAN - Medical emergency!
ATC: Roger, clear to land, number 1. What is the nature of the medical emergency?
Pilot: There is a lady on board who is going to have a baby!
After aircraft has shut down, ATC: How imminent is the baby?
Pilot: Thanks very much for the help, it'll be 9 months from tonight. We are just off to the hotel.....
ATC: Roger, clear to land, number 1. What is the nature of the medical emergency?
Pilot: There is a lady on board who is going to have a baby!
After aircraft has shut down, ATC: How imminent is the baby?
Pilot: Thanks very much for the help, it'll be 9 months from tonight. We are just off to the hotel.....
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you make a good point,CARTMAN,i've almost never heard pan,pan,pan declared when a 'med emergency' was declared.interesting.i'm sure it has to do with the amount of paperwork the crew face if they actually declare a pan.?
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Cartman - you are cynical! If a pilot declares that there is a medical emergency on board you have an obligation to do what you can to help. No point in resorting to the rule-book, stating that if they don't say PAN you are going to ignore what the pilot has said, because in today's world I suspect you will be potentially liable for negligence.
We British can be very stuffy and pompous, and this posting started off like that. Nevertheless it is probably a posting worth making, but the bottom line is - the world has moved on: you have to respect your fellow professionals even if they are not following procedures.
If anyone says that they have a medical emergency on board, you HAVE to take heed of it, whether or not they say PAN, PAN PAN, or MAYDAY. Being "correct" is not always being sensible.
We British can be very stuffy and pompous, and this posting started off like that. Nevertheless it is probably a posting worth making, but the bottom line is - the world has moved on: you have to respect your fellow professionals even if they are not following procedures.
If anyone says that they have a medical emergency on board, you HAVE to take heed of it, whether or not they say PAN, PAN PAN, or MAYDAY. Being "correct" is not always being sensible.
I'm Just A Lawnmower
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Being "correct" is not always being sensible
Case study number one: I was controlling the Scottish Sothwest sector a couple of weeks ago when Shanwick phoned to say that the BA LAX-LHR flight was probably going to declare a medical emergency upon reaching NIBOG (the boundary between oceanic and domestic airspce). Pilot of said aircraft called up about eighty miles out and in our subsequent discussion he stated his intention to declare a medical emergency due to the condition of the passenger (which I won't go into on this forum...) though he would be continuing to LHR. At NIBOG I asked him to squark 7700 and arranged a direct routing from there to BNN. This took him through Shannons airspace (just a small bit as it happens) and coordination was affected with the Irish. Aircraft was handed off to LACC and as far as I was concerned, that was it. Hopefully, the passenger was OK.
Case study number two: The very next day a VS flight from LAX-LHR declared a pan due to a medical problem on board The controller (it wasn't me) squarked him 7700 and arranged a direct routing etc.
Both cases were handled identically despite one being a 'medical emergency' and the other being a 'pan'. Whether either case warranted a full emergency I've no idea - the fact that both flights continued to LHR would maybe suggest not - but that is not our call. If you feel you have a problem, we'll help, no matter what is declared.
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BALIX: If he calls the emergency on the Ocean (whether he uses the PAN words or not), but then flies on for another 90+ mins, past perfectly good facilities at Prestwick, Manchester, (Shannon?) and others, then in my books it's not an emergency!!If there's 20 mins holding for Heathrow then he might as well do that as well as it doesn't seem that urgent to get on the ground.
Having said that, if you call it as an emergency, you will get treated as one. If they don't say it, I will usually ask "Are you declaring a PAN?" That usually elicits a Yes or No and is handled accordingly.
With ref to the discussion about British stuffiness and the need to use the correct terms, I think you also need to consider the effect on other flights. If they are in or are put in the Hold to let someone go first who should be well behind them, then there had better be a very good reason. Paperwork will of course follow, but we need to be able to explain to the Airline Manager of Big Airlines why his aircraft spent an extra £xx on fuel while First Time Airlines went straight through.
Don't even get me started on 'Fuel Emergency..!!"
Having said that, if you call it as an emergency, you will get treated as one. If they don't say it, I will usually ask "Are you declaring a PAN?" That usually elicits a Yes or No and is handled accordingly.
With ref to the discussion about British stuffiness and the need to use the correct terms, I think you also need to consider the effect on other flights. If they are in or are put in the Hold to let someone go first who should be well behind them, then there had better be a very good reason. Paperwork will of course follow, but we need to be able to explain to the Airline Manager of Big Airlines why his aircraft spent an extra £xx on fuel while First Time Airlines went straight through.
Don't even get me started on 'Fuel Emergency..!!"
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eyeinthesky
Which is pretty much the point I was trying to make. Perhaps the Virgin declaring a 'Pan' was more correct than the Speedbird declaring a 'medical emergency' but when it gets down to it, we are not going to deny a reasonable request for an expiditious routing over semantics. Of course, we must assume that the pilot is not telling porkies in order to get to the bar a few minutes earlier
A couple of months ago I had a similar situation with a Speedbird coming off the ocean. However, the pilot decided not to declare anything as, in his words, the patient was now sitting up and having breakfast. Good for him, it must have been tempting to follow his company's advice (he had been speaking to them on his other box) and declare a medical emergency just to jump the queue at BNN.
BALIX: If he calls the emergency on the Ocean (whether he uses the PAN words or not), but then flies on for another 90+ mins, past perfectly good facilities at Prestwick, Manchester, (Shannon?) and others, then in my books it's not an emergency!!I
A couple of months ago I had a similar situation with a Speedbird coming off the ocean. However, the pilot decided not to declare anything as, in his words, the patient was now sitting up and having breakfast. Good for him, it must have been tempting to follow his company's advice (he had been speaking to them on his other box) and declare a medical emergency just to jump the queue at BNN.
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Now hold fire just one minute!
Riverboat, before anybody jumps the proverbial cannon, let me clarify things for a sec.
I am not suggesting for one minute that somebody who simply declares a 'Medical Emergency' is going to ignored. That was never my intention and is NEVER the case. Summarising my point- the ONLY recognised declarations in the UK are MAYDAY and PAN. If a pilot suddenly develops a problem with the aircraft then we aren't going to get caught up in pointless discussions as to exactly how impossible their task is going to be. On the other hand, if the a/c is fine, they're 10 minutes from the holding point and need to queue jump for a sick pax and delay another 20 aircraft then if you simply declare a medical emergency then in 95% of cases you will be nudged in the direction of, or asked if you're declaring, a PAN.
In these days when the London TMA is as busy as it is, it is often pushed to the very limits and as ATCOs we are 100% focussed on getting to guys and gals from one side to the 'tother without touching. With delays the norm, if an a/c is in any kind of emergency and needs special treatment you can typically multiply our workload by a factor of 2 or 3. Now for genuine situations we are only too willing to do so but the implications for ourselves and the other 20 aircraft in the vacinity have to be considered and accounted for.
It is not purely the ATCOs decision either. If every a/c that has a slight medical problem received preferential treatment there would be carnage every day. If there are 20 minute delays and somebody needs to jump the queue then fine, but the only way we can be sure is by clarifying the situation. Lets not forget the requirement to obtain authorisation from the 'Powers that Be' above mere ATCOs as well.
Basically, if you declare a Med Emergency the ATCO will think 'Is he/she declaring a PAN', and time will be wasted. If you decalre a PAN with a Sick Pax, then we can all concentrate on getting you back on the black-top.
It is very much like the old fuel emergency situation. I'd wager a fair few pennies that the ATCO's response will be - 'Are you declaring a PAN/MAYDAY?'
I am not suggesting for one minute that somebody who simply declares a 'Medical Emergency' is going to ignored. That was never my intention and is NEVER the case. Summarising my point- the ONLY recognised declarations in the UK are MAYDAY and PAN. If a pilot suddenly develops a problem with the aircraft then we aren't going to get caught up in pointless discussions as to exactly how impossible their task is going to be. On the other hand, if the a/c is fine, they're 10 minutes from the holding point and need to queue jump for a sick pax and delay another 20 aircraft then if you simply declare a medical emergency then in 95% of cases you will be nudged in the direction of, or asked if you're declaring, a PAN.
In these days when the London TMA is as busy as it is, it is often pushed to the very limits and as ATCOs we are 100% focussed on getting to guys and gals from one side to the 'tother without touching. With delays the norm, if an a/c is in any kind of emergency and needs special treatment you can typically multiply our workload by a factor of 2 or 3. Now for genuine situations we are only too willing to do so but the implications for ourselves and the other 20 aircraft in the vacinity have to be considered and accounted for.
It is not purely the ATCOs decision either. If every a/c that has a slight medical problem received preferential treatment there would be carnage every day. If there are 20 minute delays and somebody needs to jump the queue then fine, but the only way we can be sure is by clarifying the situation. Lets not forget the requirement to obtain authorisation from the 'Powers that Be' above mere ATCOs as well.
Basically, if you declare a Med Emergency the ATCO will think 'Is he/she declaring a PAN', and time will be wasted. If you decalre a PAN with a Sick Pax, then we can all concentrate on getting you back on the black-top.
It is very much like the old fuel emergency situation. I'd wager a fair few pennies that the ATCO's response will be - 'Are you declaring a PAN/MAYDAY?'
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"Just one more thing Sir" <--Columbo stylee...
I assure you that there is NEVER a question of not respecting those sat in the business end of the aluminum tubes.
Don't really think I'm pompous or stuffy either - what do you think Northern Gal??!
Don't really think I'm pompous or stuffy either - what do you think Northern Gal??!