Air India Capt fires F/O outstation
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High and the Mighty
MaxAlt
Any idea where to get a full copy of the movie (DVD, downnload or otherwise) ?
My 'oul fella's been looking for a copy for years but the release rights apparently are in dispute with the Wayne estate etc. etc.
Leviathan
Any idea where to get a full copy of the movie (DVD, downnload or otherwise) ?
My 'oul fella's been looking for a copy for years but the release rights apparently are in dispute with the Wayne estate etc. etc.
Leviathan
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Word out Hollywood way is that it will be released in March (along with another Wayne aviation movie) on DVD and tape.
The aeroplane used in the High and the Mighty was a DC-4 which, oddly enough, after having an engine fall off at 140W, went on to SFO and landed with all four turning...clever those mechanics mid-Pacific.
The aeroplane used in the High and the Mighty was a DC-4 which, oddly enough, after having an engine fall off at 140W, went on to SFO and landed with all four turning...clever those mechanics mid-Pacific.
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I agree with MercenaryAli and 411A. The Captain is the "boss" as stipulated by Company Regulations and Air Law.
Unfortunately, a small international airline based in Bahrain allows its local Pursers (I think they call them Flight Seniors) to act as if they are in charge of the aircraft. Fortunately, they have come up against some "old-school" Captains who have educated them (see posts by TCASTED).
It is very sad that there are some insecure, some might say weak, expatriate Captains on this site who would rather have their Pilot in Command authority undermined that risk upsetting a local crew member.
CRM is vital, but the Captain has the final word. That is the accepted convention (except in Bahrain and a few other places).
Unfortunately, a small international airline based in Bahrain allows its local Pursers (I think they call them Flight Seniors) to act as if they are in charge of the aircraft. Fortunately, they have come up against some "old-school" Captains who have educated them (see posts by TCASTED).
It is very sad that there are some insecure, some might say weak, expatriate Captains on this site who would rather have their Pilot in Command authority undermined that risk upsetting a local crew member.
CRM is vital, but the Captain has the final word. That is the accepted convention (except in Bahrain and a few other places).
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Just to let all you guys know that ive been through the air india crm course but doesnt really do a whole lot of good to the pilots online as there are these certain ex Air Force pilots who really think that they are gods gift to aviation and who wouldnt even know the meaning of CRM. All the first officer really does is gear up and flaps up so can you really blame them for the lack of hands on experience when something does happen??
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Unbelievable!
I may regret jumping into this post, but...without knowing the particulars....
IMHO, the Captain doesn't (and shouldn't) have that level of authority.
(maybe in India where stranger things have happened)
The Employer does the firing. Not the Captain.
OPS Manuals usually define duties and responsibilities. I may be wrong but I haven't read in recent times, an ops manual that includes the firing of anybody's ass.
Any Captain, not enamoured with his F/O for whatever reason, certainly has the right (as any pilot on any aircraft requiring two or more pilots in its CofA) to refuse to fly with that pilot.
But, to fire his ass??? I don't think so.
As an F/O, I wouldn't have hesitated to abandon a Captain at an out station for his/her misconduct, unsafe operation, or blatent ignorance or disrespect. That's an easy decision.
As a Captain, I have enough to manage on a flight without doing HRs job or the CPs job. Thank you.
To show up on a flight deck without certain people management skills is obscene and unacceptable. No matter what your position or level of authority. CRM should enhance this trait not create it.
I would have no trouble justifying those actions to a CP, Fleet Mgr or whatever level of authority. If, in the end, they decided to fire me for it....then I guess I really shouldn't be working for that employer in the first place.
I may regret jumping into this post, but...without knowing the particulars....
IMHO, the Captain doesn't (and shouldn't) have that level of authority.
(maybe in India where stranger things have happened)
The Employer does the firing. Not the Captain.
OPS Manuals usually define duties and responsibilities. I may be wrong but I haven't read in recent times, an ops manual that includes the firing of anybody's ass.
Any Captain, not enamoured with his F/O for whatever reason, certainly has the right (as any pilot on any aircraft requiring two or more pilots in its CofA) to refuse to fly with that pilot.
But, to fire his ass??? I don't think so.
As an F/O, I wouldn't have hesitated to abandon a Captain at an out station for his/her misconduct, unsafe operation, or blatent ignorance or disrespect. That's an easy decision.
As a Captain, I have enough to manage on a flight without doing HRs job or the CPs job. Thank you.
To show up on a flight deck without certain people management skills is obscene and unacceptable. No matter what your position or level of authority. CRM should enhance this trait not create it.
I would have no trouble justifying those actions to a CP, Fleet Mgr or whatever level of authority. If, in the end, they decided to fire me for it....then I guess I really shouldn't be working for that employer in the first place.
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Capt fires an F/O
Definitely one of the "Old School".
A lot of Capts reacting... "Capt has the final word".
So next time there's an accident/ incident... it should read
"Capts Error". Where's CRM ?
A lot of Capts reacting... "Capt has the final word".
So next time there's an accident/ incident... it should read
"Capts Error". Where's CRM ?
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Yeah, cabin crew...and off rocker.
The CC forum sure has a duzzy about BA CC guys/gals trying to 'poison' the front office folks, and some FD crew there are drawn into the 'discussion'.
No wonder the thread is now closed.
I have never ceased to be amazed at the difficulties some Captains have with their cabin crew...and indeed, First Officers.
Especially with CC, just get along with the 'Cabin Captain' (not all that difficult) and the rest of 'em follow along like sheep.
But noooo, some Commanders like to stick their big nose in the cabin business...and then are surprised when it is put out of joint.
Fools.
In nearly forty years of professional flying, I only had a 'problem' with one First Officer...and he was read the riot act by the fleet manager, and demoted to a lower fleet...where he stayed for at least three years.
The fleet manager mentioned that this turkey just simply could not get along, and he certainly paid the price.
Argue with the boss (be it the Commander, or indeed the Fleet Manager), and expect to have trouble in river city.
The CC forum sure has a duzzy about BA CC guys/gals trying to 'poison' the front office folks, and some FD crew there are drawn into the 'discussion'.
No wonder the thread is now closed.
I have never ceased to be amazed at the difficulties some Captains have with their cabin crew...and indeed, First Officers.
Especially with CC, just get along with the 'Cabin Captain' (not all that difficult) and the rest of 'em follow along like sheep.
But noooo, some Commanders like to stick their big nose in the cabin business...and then are surprised when it is put out of joint.
Fools.
In nearly forty years of professional flying, I only had a 'problem' with one First Officer...and he was read the riot act by the fleet manager, and demoted to a lower fleet...where he stayed for at least three years.
The fleet manager mentioned that this turkey just simply could not get along, and he certainly paid the price.
Argue with the boss (be it the Commander, or indeed the Fleet Manager), and expect to have trouble in river city.
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Willie Everlearn
. . . . As an F/O, I wouldn't have hesitated to abandon a Captain at an out station for his/her misconduct, unsafe operation, or blatent ignorance or disrespect.
+++++++++++++++++
What sheer arrogance! Since when did the F/O decide whether or not a Captain was guilty of misconduct, unsafe operation or disrespect? The Captain is the xxxxxxx Boss!
What are F/O's coming to these days?
Bring back the birch I say!!
Ha Ha Ha...
+++++++++++++++++
What sheer arrogance! Since when did the F/O decide whether or not a Captain was guilty of misconduct, unsafe operation or disrespect? The Captain is the xxxxxxx Boss!
What are F/O's coming to these days?
Bring back the birch I say!!
Ha Ha Ha...
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did you only mean that he shouted [fired] at the guy and had him replaced. you see the confusion you have created, firing means sacking in most [read all over]parts of the world.
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do you think, that f/o dute is gear up, flaps up, shut up? Thats all?
Thanks Good in my airlines the policy is that if i am a pilot in flying i am heaving decision about TOD, and the otrher things concernig a safe approach and land
In my airlines I do make take off, climbing,and descending and landing, regardless what a cpt is thinking about this.
It is why f/o with 5years experiment is ready to take controll over that all unreformable cpts
be nice to f/os who are better than you
Thanks Good in my airlines the policy is that if i am a pilot in flying i am heaving decision about TOD, and the otrher things concernig a safe approach and land
In my airlines I do make take off, climbing,and descending and landing, regardless what a cpt is thinking about this.
It is why f/o with 5years experiment is ready to take controll over that all unreformable cpts
be nice to f/os who are better than you
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IT HAD TO HAPPEN IN AIR INDIA ONLY THE STATE OF PILOTS IS A SAD STORY DISCONTENMENT, LIVING IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY AND NO UNION CAUSE OF LAST GOVERNEMENT CAME DOWN HEAVILY ON THEM , THIS IS WHAT HAS COME OUT , ENQUIRED ABOUT THE INCIDENT THE CAPTAIN IS A NEW GUY AND THE FIRST OFFICER HAS JUST COME TO THE AIRBUS FOR COMMAND FROM THE 744, THE PILOTS ARE OVERWORKED NO REST OF ANY SORT FROM THE AIRLINE ,THERE ARE PILOTS WHO HAVE NOT HAD VACATION FOR LAST TWO YEARS ,I HEARD THAT SOME PILOTS HAVE LOOKING OUT FOR JOBS IN THE MIDLE EAST,AND SOME HAVE ALREADY LEFT COULD NOT CONFIRM . ANY WAYS WILL POST THE DETAILS OF THIS COMPLETE INCIDENT AS SOON AS i GET HOLD OF IT.
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Think about what you are saying guys!
Let's face the facts:
1. The Captain is always in Command
2. Several incidents/accidents and (I think everybody can confirm) also personal experience show, that the CPT is not always right
3. Following the argumentation of some guys here I get the impression that a FO should follow a CPT's oder even if he knows that this is wrong.
(In the worst case this is a key-step to an incident/accident)
A good Crew-Coordination makes it possible to the FO to discuss critical matters without getting penalized by the CPT.
That is how it SHOULD be.
Obvously this seems to be not the case and in this case the CPT overran the "Right to Command" by penalizing in an improper way.
Guys, you are responsible for hundreds of Pax, the cockpit is a workplace for highly disciplinated and qualified professional pilots and not for the baby-brothers of Mike Tyson!
Pls keep that in Mind before you kick your FO from behind!
Let's face the facts:
1. The Captain is always in Command
2. Several incidents/accidents and (I think everybody can confirm) also personal experience show, that the CPT is not always right
3. Following the argumentation of some guys here I get the impression that a FO should follow a CPT's oder even if he knows that this is wrong.
(In the worst case this is a key-step to an incident/accident)
A good Crew-Coordination makes it possible to the FO to discuss critical matters without getting penalized by the CPT.
That is how it SHOULD be.
Obvously this seems to be not the case and in this case the CPT overran the "Right to Command" by penalizing in an improper way.
Guys, you are responsible for hundreds of Pax, the cockpit is a workplace for highly disciplinated and qualified professional pilots and not for the baby-brothers of Mike Tyson!
Pls keep that in Mind before you kick your FO from behind!
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Piotera
. . . . do you think, that f/o dute is gear up, flaps up, shut up? Thats all?
Thanks Good in my airlines the policy is that if i am a pilot in flying i am heaving decision about TOD, and the otrher things concernig a safe approach and land
In my airlines I do make take off, climbing,and descending and landing, regardless what a cpt is thinking about this.
It is why f/o with 5years experiment is ready to take controll over that all unreformable cpts
be nice to f/os who are better than you
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes! But remember you are ALWAYS P1 U/S and you don't do anything REGARDLESS of what the Captain is thinking! - I HOPE !!
Please let me know which airline you work for and I shall ensure I never fly with you !!
Thanks Good in my airlines the policy is that if i am a pilot in flying i am heaving decision about TOD, and the otrher things concernig a safe approach and land
In my airlines I do make take off, climbing,and descending and landing, regardless what a cpt is thinking about this.
It is why f/o with 5years experiment is ready to take controll over that all unreformable cpts
be nice to f/os who are better than you
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes! But remember you are ALWAYS P1 U/S and you don't do anything REGARDLESS of what the Captain is thinking! - I HOPE !!
Please let me know which airline you work for and I shall ensure I never fly with you !!
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Mercinary Ali
I can see some of the posters on this tread have a good sense of humor and try and wind some people up, but you seem pretty serious in what you write.
What planet are you from?!?!
The sky must be pretty pink in your world!!!
Ofcourse the Captain has the final authority, but this doesn't mean that if the Captain wants to jump into a pile of **** you have to follow him.
QUOTE]Please let me know which airline you work for and I shall ensure I never fly with you !![/QUOTE]
I'm glad you see it that way!
I can see some of the posters on this tread have a good sense of humor and try and wind some people up, but you seem pretty serious in what you write.
What planet are you from?!?!
The sky must be pretty pink in your world!!!
Ofcourse the Captain has the final authority, but this doesn't mean that if the Captain wants to jump into a pile of **** you have to follow him.
QUOTE]Please let me know which airline you work for and I shall ensure I never fly with you !![/QUOTE]
I'm glad you see it that way!