Air India Capt fires F/O outstation
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MercenaryAli
I wonder if you might consider taking up your particular point of view with a chap called Al Haynes formerly of United Airlines. I'm sure he'd be more interested in your point of view than I.
...by the way. Are you corporate or airline?
...are you really an airline transport pilot?
I wonder if you might consider taking up your particular point of view with a chap called Al Haynes formerly of United Airlines. I'm sure he'd be more interested in your point of view than I.
...by the way. Are you corporate or airline?
...are you really an airline transport pilot?
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The way I see it is MercenaryAli you're a bit of a pr%$k.
Captains have overall command, they are not always right and as it goes everyone makes mistakes.
However, they are paid more for their experience and decision making and as I see it, a good Captain with good CRM should make his/her decisions taking onboard all information available to them. If issues persist then sort it out on the ground preferably by talking than with a bit of fist action. (altho admittedly the latter would be more fun to watch
)
And as for bad landings.... well haven't we all been there at one time?
Blu
Captains have overall command, they are not always right and as it goes everyone makes mistakes.
However, they are paid more for their experience and decision making and as I see it, a good Captain with good CRM should make his/her decisions taking onboard all information available to them. If issues persist then sort it out on the ground preferably by talking than with a bit of fist action. (altho admittedly the latter would be more fun to watch
)And as for bad landings.... well haven't we all been there at one time?
Blu
Like Willie Everlearn I'm not sure I should be getting into this, but to try and head off the name-calling I want to point out that there are two sides to this.
Neither Captains nor copilots are always right. CRM was invented as a way of enabling the co to have his voice heard, because in too many cases it was "Gear up. Flap up. Shut up." CRM was not intended to remove the Captain's responsibility, or authority, or FINAL SAY.
There is now (in my opinion) mounting evidence that copilots are taking it too far and assuming that they are making the decisions. It must be the way CRM is being taught, but I've heard appalling tales of copilots refusing to do what they are told (because they disagree with it) and behaving like old-school captains by refusing to give their reasons to the (actual) Captain.
It's time to reconsider how CRM is being taught, because otherwise it will lose all credibility and we'll be back in the bad old days.
Neither Captains nor copilots are always right. CRM was invented as a way of enabling the co to have his voice heard, because in too many cases it was "Gear up. Flap up. Shut up." CRM was not intended to remove the Captain's responsibility, or authority, or FINAL SAY.
There is now (in my opinion) mounting evidence that copilots are taking it too far and assuming that they are making the decisions. It must be the way CRM is being taught, but I've heard appalling tales of copilots refusing to do what they are told (because they disagree with it) and behaving like old-school captains by refusing to give their reasons to the (actual) Captain.
It's time to reconsider how CRM is being taught, because otherwise it will lose all credibility and we'll be back in the bad old days.
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Was the f/o's employment contract with the company or the captain? Most likely the former.
As a result (at least under most common-law systems), the captain would not have the capacity to avoid the contract (ie. sack the f/o) as he is not privy to the contract.
Unless, of course, the company has specifically given that captain (or its captains as a class) the authority to avoid such contracts on its behalf.
Whether the 'captain is always in command' is irrelevant. This action is regarding the f/o's employment contract, not whether a particular captain feels he can or cannot fly with the f/o. His command extends to not allowing the f/o onto the aircraft, certainly - but not as far as dipping his toe into contracts to which he is not privy.
Given the 'captain is always in command' line, then why not just invite family & friends on board for free for the next trip to Mauritius? Or alternatively: sod it, it's cold in Vancouver (where we are supposed to be flying tonight), so I think I'll take the bird to Cape Town instead tonight. Warmer and the steak's cheaper.
No, like it or not, there are limits to a captain's authority.
As a result (at least under most common-law systems), the captain would not have the capacity to avoid the contract (ie. sack the f/o) as he is not privy to the contract.
Unless, of course, the company has specifically given that captain (or its captains as a class) the authority to avoid such contracts on its behalf.
Whether the 'captain is always in command' is irrelevant. This action is regarding the f/o's employment contract, not whether a particular captain feels he can or cannot fly with the f/o. His command extends to not allowing the f/o onto the aircraft, certainly - but not as far as dipping his toe into contracts to which he is not privy.
Given the 'captain is always in command' line, then why not just invite family & friends on board for free for the next trip to Mauritius? Or alternatively: sod it, it's cold in Vancouver (where we are supposed to be flying tonight), so I think I'll take the bird to Cape Town instead tonight. Warmer and the steak's cheaper.
No, like it or not, there are limits to a captain's authority.
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Going to have to stop firing one another if this is going to happen:
UPDATE 1-Air-India board OKs tender for 50 aircraft
Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:30 AM ET
(Adds details)
BOMBAY, Nov 24 (Reuters) - The board of Indian state-run airline Air-India [AI.UL] gave approval on Wednesday to proceed with a tender for up to 50 aircraft to more than double its fleet.
The carrier is looking at aircraft from Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) . It expects to buy two-thirds of the planes and take options to purchase the rest.
Air-India is looking to have the planes in its fleet by 2013, expanding its fleet to 74 from 34 as some of the new planes replace older models.
Planes to be replaced include Boeing 747-300 and 747-400 aircraft and Airbus A310-300s.
Air-India said the board had approved a plan to float tenders inviting offers for the purchase of three types of aircraft and that the outcome could be a deal with Airbus, Boeing or a mix of the two.
It will look to buy medium-capacity planes for ultra long-range flights; medium-capacity, long-range planes seating 350 passengers; and 250-seat planes for medium-range routes, the airline said in a statement.
The board had approved a purchase plan in November last year but was asked to reconsider it by the new government, which took office in May.
A review took into account changes in price and technologies in the aviation industry.
A decision will now rest on technical and price bids from aircraft and engine manufacturers and will then require government approval.
Air India's plan last November to purchase 10 A340-300 planes has been abandoned, a spokesman said.
The 18 Boeing 737-800 aircraft that it had earlier selected for its small capacity short-range operations will now be purchased for its subsidiary company Air-India Charters Ltd and will be used to replace leased aircraft for its discount airline, Air India Express, which starts operations in April next year.
UPDATE 1-Air-India board OKs tender for 50 aircraft
Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:30 AM ET
(Adds details)
BOMBAY, Nov 24 (Reuters) - The board of Indian state-run airline Air-India [AI.UL] gave approval on Wednesday to proceed with a tender for up to 50 aircraft to more than double its fleet.
The carrier is looking at aircraft from Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) . It expects to buy two-thirds of the planes and take options to purchase the rest.
Air-India is looking to have the planes in its fleet by 2013, expanding its fleet to 74 from 34 as some of the new planes replace older models.
Planes to be replaced include Boeing 747-300 and 747-400 aircraft and Airbus A310-300s.
Air-India said the board had approved a plan to float tenders inviting offers for the purchase of three types of aircraft and that the outcome could be a deal with Airbus, Boeing or a mix of the two.
It will look to buy medium-capacity planes for ultra long-range flights; medium-capacity, long-range planes seating 350 passengers; and 250-seat planes for medium-range routes, the airline said in a statement.
The board had approved a purchase plan in November last year but was asked to reconsider it by the new government, which took office in May.
A review took into account changes in price and technologies in the aviation industry.
A decision will now rest on technical and price bids from aircraft and engine manufacturers and will then require government approval.
Air India's plan last November to purchase 10 A340-300 planes has been abandoned, a spokesman said.
The 18 Boeing 737-800 aircraft that it had earlier selected for its small capacity short-range operations will now be purchased for its subsidiary company Air-India Charters Ltd and will be used to replace leased aircraft for its discount airline, Air India Express, which starts operations in April next year.
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Did this event really take place as alleged?
Has there been any subsequent information or follow-up?
There would seem to be an awful lot of speculation if it is an unverified event.
Thanks Willie Everlearn, it took 4 pages to get to what I want to know.
Does AI have a unique policy that line Capts can fire (terminate employment) of other employees? Has this been done before?
Would someone with some FACTS please speak up.
Has there been any subsequent information or follow-up?
There would seem to be an awful lot of speculation if it is an unverified event.
Thanks Willie Everlearn, it took 4 pages to get to what I want to know.
Does AI have a unique policy that line Capts can fire (terminate employment) of other employees? Has this been done before?
Would someone with some FACTS please speak up.
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Air India is a state owned airline and once you get in, it's a job for life.........No captain or even a federal minister can terminate your employment no matter how hard they try....why else do you think no private invester wants to buy it even though the government is desperate to get rid of it.....too many employees...it has the highest employee per aircraft ratio in the world......
No body is allowed to fire anyone.....that is the way the labour laws are....full stop.
Like it has been pointed out I think it is confusion with the language.....the captain probably got very upset with the FO and they had to get a replacement....
The FO in question is probably operating his next sector as we speak.
No body is allowed to fire anyone.....that is the way the labour laws are....full stop.
Like it has been pointed out I think it is confusion with the language.....the captain probably got very upset with the FO and they had to get a replacement....
The FO in question is probably operating his next sector as we speak.
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And if the FO feels strongly enough to raise an objection, instead of "just bloody doing it," perhaps it is something detrimental to flight safety?
Besides, why does the Captain's action have to unquestionably detrimental to safety before it can be questioned? I would prefer to ask the question while there is still some doubt about it! If I have to overrule an "unquestionably" unsafe action (which I was instructed at my initial interview was part of my job) then I will never fly with that captain again (unless it can be proven afterwards that the unsafe action was due to some isolated cause).
Of course, if I am wrong, I expect it to cost me my job. It is not a course of action I am going to take lightly.
Besides, why does the Captain's action have to unquestionably detrimental to safety before it can be questioned? I would prefer to ask the question while there is still some doubt about it! If I have to overrule an "unquestionably" unsafe action (which I was instructed at my initial interview was part of my job) then I will never fly with that captain again (unless it can be proven afterwards that the unsafe action was due to some isolated cause).
Of course, if I am wrong, I expect it to cost me my job. It is not a course of action I am going to take lightly.
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Well just maybe..................
Carlton Browne (no offense intended, of course), if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer, and have not been promoted.
Of course, with your demonstrated attitude, perhaps the RHS is your best venue and, the company has realised this as well.
Make your bed...and sleep in it
Of course, with your demonstrated attitude, perhaps the RHS is your best venue and, the company has realised this as well.
Make your bed...and sleep in it
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411a
Carlton Brown, if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer, and have not been promoted.
411a PLEASE give the other a chance to be a Cpt.
Are yoy really a Cpt?
How old are you? 80? 90? perhaps
Carlton Brown, if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer, and have not been promoted.
411a PLEASE give the other a chance to be a Cpt.
Are yoy really a Cpt?
How old are you? 80? 90? perhaps
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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if you constantly question the Captain, that is precisely just why you are still a First Officer
Sure, if you constantly question a Captain, as in annoy the **** out of the guy, then you're asking for trouble. If you know when and how to speak up when the skipper is going off on a tangent, that is an absolute essential. Equally, if the skipper is worth his salt, he'll put his hands up and say, "Ok, I screwed up there."
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I remember some years ago a Captain turning up in uniform at his hotel checkout drunk. The F/O refused to fly with him. The Captain then hit him.
Last I heard the Capt was calibrating ILS's for the CAA.
Apparently !!
Last I heard the Capt was calibrating ILS's for the CAA.
Apparently !!
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I think the altercation was not truly a professional one. It stems from "political issues". The SARS problem which affected AI and caused them to lose their union's credibility and the fact that certain FOs who are close to their command are being targetted by certain Captains? Of course this is pure spec as I am not a part of the Maharaja. Maybe somebody in the know can clarify as this thread has emerged into a "gossip" thread.
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judgement passed on the situation in haste has many a tale to tell.
Actually the first officer has had many problems with other commanders with his "I dont care what youve said " attitude when advice was give to him to correct his mistakes. This commander on this flight has apparantly tried to do the same and from what i hear the F/O got out of the cocpit himself. And now that he had done this, the captain then asked for a relief F/O.... now this is just off the top.
Bottom line... CRM has failed indeed.... right from his training days. The said F/O lacks the experience of flying Jets and commercially too. He has been with the airline for a little over 8 months.
this issue is being looked into by a panel..and I am sure a correction to the issue will be initiated so that flight safety standards are met
Actually the first officer has had many problems with other commanders with his "I dont care what youve said " attitude when advice was give to him to correct his mistakes. This commander on this flight has apparantly tried to do the same and from what i hear the F/O got out of the cocpit himself. And now that he had done this, the captain then asked for a relief F/O.... now this is just off the top.
Bottom line... CRM has failed indeed.... right from his training days. The said F/O lacks the experience of flying Jets and commercially too. He has been with the airline for a little over 8 months.
this issue is being looked into by a panel..and I am sure a correction to the issue will be initiated so that flight safety standards are met
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Has anyone thought that the captain in question might have been the fleet captain / chief training captain ? or any training captain ?, the f/o might have been line training ? and been chopped ?
or he might just be a bit taller than the captain
By the way to all you angry f/o's out there, you will never know the captain's job untill you have sat in his seat no matter how long you have been in the right seat, and no matter how sharp you think you are.
or he might just be a bit taller than the captain
By the way to all you angry f/o's out there, you will never know the captain's job untill you have sat in his seat no matter how long you have been in the right seat, and no matter how sharp you think you are.
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We've been down this stony garden path before but its always worth re-visiting.
We all interact with each other according to several factors,incl age,status gender etc.Best CRM always comes with shallow cockpit gradients because mutual respect and trust is usually(but not always)high.Somebody mentioned Al Haynes and the Sioux city crash;I cannot think of a better example.Thats what CRM is all about;Haynes' trust in his crew and a dead-heading skipper was instrumental,and theirs in him,but look at their stats;they were ALL high-timers,huge experience.It was this experience level incidentally that enabled them to cope with a situation for which there was no procedure!
Willie Everlearn' assertion that he has no hesitation in leaving the Captain if he so deems is as controversial as Mercenary Ali's view on First Officers.Neither are correct.First Officers dont leave the aircraft without the Captain's permission for one thing.And a Captain who doesnt show respect and listen to his first officer is a dangerous fool.
We all interact with each other according to several factors,incl age,status gender etc.Best CRM always comes with shallow cockpit gradients because mutual respect and trust is usually(but not always)high.Somebody mentioned Al Haynes and the Sioux city crash;I cannot think of a better example.Thats what CRM is all about;Haynes' trust in his crew and a dead-heading skipper was instrumental,and theirs in him,but look at their stats;they were ALL high-timers,huge experience.It was this experience level incidentally that enabled them to cope with a situation for which there was no procedure!
Willie Everlearn' assertion that he has no hesitation in leaving the Captain if he so deems is as controversial as Mercenary Ali's view on First Officers.Neither are correct.First Officers dont leave the aircraft without the Captain's permission for one thing.And a Captain who doesnt show respect and listen to his first officer is a dangerous fool.
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411A, you have missed my point- probably this was due to my choice of words. I do not
As I intended to imply in my post, for me to attempt to act counter to his (or her) decision has serious consequences, even if I am right. If I am wrong, I expect it to cost me my job.
As you may gather from this, it is not an action I have yet had to even consider. Realistically, I think it unlikely I will ever have to- even if, as you seem to expect, I spend my entire career in the RHS. In everyday operation, my duty is to support the captain in every way possible. Within the limits set by our company SOPs, I adapt my style of operation to fit the captains' needs, rather than expect them to adapt to mine.
Our company SOPs, however, require both pilots to be in the loop about all important decisions- any doubt about, for instance, a cleared flight level must be verified with ATC. Does it count as "questioning the captain" to ask "Did he say FL330 or 350?"
When I was initially interviewed for my current job, this was carried out by the Chief Pilot and the Director of Flight Operations. At this interview, I was told directly that if I felt the captain's actions to be unsafe, it was my responsiblity to intervene.
One of the best examples of CRM I have ever seen was demonstrated by the Chief Pilot of my last employer (sadly the company later ceased trading).
The first time I flew with him (as a very junior FO) he said:
"I guarantee I make more mistakes than you do. If you see me do anything that you think is wrong, tell me!" He then went on to fly a textbook flight. The standard he set- good technical knowledge, good handling skills, while accepting that he could make mistakes- is one that I have tried to meet ever since.
constantly question the captain.
As you may gather from this, it is not an action I have yet had to even consider. Realistically, I think it unlikely I will ever have to- even if, as you seem to expect, I spend my entire career in the RHS. In everyday operation, my duty is to support the captain in every way possible. Within the limits set by our company SOPs, I adapt my style of operation to fit the captains' needs, rather than expect them to adapt to mine.
Our company SOPs, however, require both pilots to be in the loop about all important decisions- any doubt about, for instance, a cleared flight level must be verified with ATC. Does it count as "questioning the captain" to ask "Did he say FL330 or 350?"
When I was initially interviewed for my current job, this was carried out by the Chief Pilot and the Director of Flight Operations. At this interview, I was told directly that if I felt the captain's actions to be unsafe, it was my responsiblity to intervene.
One of the best examples of CRM I have ever seen was demonstrated by the Chief Pilot of my last employer (sadly the company later ceased trading).
The first time I flew with him (as a very junior FO) he said:
"I guarantee I make more mistakes than you do. If you see me do anything that you think is wrong, tell me!" He then went on to fly a textbook flight. The standard he set- good technical knowledge, good handling skills, while accepting that he could make mistakes- is one that I have tried to meet ever since.