Pinnacle Airlines aircraft incident
Join Date: Apr 2002
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All,
I flew at this airline for 2 months as a new FO on the CRJ in 2003. I was not impressed by several things [pay/upgrade time] and found another job to occupy my NWA furlough time. It is a sad event, but this little airline grew (is growing) too quickly and there are some deficiencies. A lack of high altitude (coffin corner) type training is but one example of a very poor ground school program. I questioned some of the "check airmen's" understanding of aerodynamics, but when push came to shove, agreed to their mis-understandings to get the check-ride over with. One of the ground school instructors at Pinnacle was ramper with "ZERO" flight training who once argued with me about the CRJ landing gear "trucks." Can't say that pilot error had anything to do with this accident, but from my personal experience, I wouldn't be surprised if there were shortcomings in this accident attributed to Pinnacle's training program.
I flew at this airline for 2 months as a new FO on the CRJ in 2003. I was not impressed by several things [pay/upgrade time] and found another job to occupy my NWA furlough time. It is a sad event, but this little airline grew (is growing) too quickly and there are some deficiencies. A lack of high altitude (coffin corner) type training is but one example of a very poor ground school program. I questioned some of the "check airmen's" understanding of aerodynamics, but when push came to shove, agreed to their mis-understandings to get the check-ride over with. One of the ground school instructors at Pinnacle was ramper with "ZERO" flight training who once argued with me about the CRJ landing gear "trucks." Can't say that pilot error had anything to do with this accident, but from my personal experience, I wouldn't be surprised if there were shortcomings in this accident attributed to Pinnacle's training program.
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Non-crj200 pilot here and pure speculation at this stage but it seems the ultimate cause of the crash was not the double engine failure at altitude (which would be alleviated with a max cert alt of FL370) but by the low speed characteristics.
KAIZ was a much closer airfield with full ils available. We need to check the decent profile but the crew (RIP) either encounted unexpected WS or lost control at low speed.
Two questions for CRJ200 pilots:
1) What low speed warning indicators are available on the CRJ200?
2) Do you think they are sufficient?
KAIZ was a much closer airfield with full ils available. We need to check the decent profile but the crew (RIP) either encounted unexpected WS or lost control at low speed.
Two questions for CRJ200 pilots:
1) What low speed warning indicators are available on the CRJ200?
2) Do you think they are sufficient?
Trash du Blanc
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I flew the CRJ for 1000 hours in 1997-98. Two things pop to mind after reading what we know so far:
1. The CRJ lands at 1.5 VStall, and it's for a reason. Memory fails me, but it seems more than one was lost during flight test in the slow-speed regime. Of course, the 70 seater here had leading edge devices, didn't it?
2. I went through one month of training at Bombardier in Montreal. In 10 sim rides of 4 hours each I manipulated the controls maybe a total of one hour. Empshasis was squarely on automation, and if you told them you wanted to learn to hand-fly it was if you had uttered a profanity in church. That said - most line pilots quickly shed that insanity and learned to put the actual aircraft through its paces without George.
1. The CRJ lands at 1.5 VStall, and it's for a reason. Memory fails me, but it seems more than one was lost during flight test in the slow-speed regime. Of course, the 70 seater here had leading edge devices, didn't it?
2. I went through one month of training at Bombardier in Montreal. In 10 sim rides of 4 hours each I manipulated the controls maybe a total of one hour. Empshasis was squarely on automation, and if you told them you wanted to learn to hand-fly it was if you had uttered a profanity in church. That said - most line pilots quickly shed that insanity and learned to put the actual aircraft through its paces without George.
I saw more pilots hand-fly the 757 to FL 230 than a steam-gauge plane to 14,000'. Maybe the higher thrust/weight ratio with hydraulic controls is more rewarding.
Airlines which hire experienced pilots have little reason to be afraid of pilots hand-flying the plane. In a country (even our neighbor Canada?) where pilots have very limited experience, then maybe there is concern for their skills without automation to always save the day. Were not many modern airplanes designed to help new pilots avoid having to either hand-fly or handle a basic autopilot (the older type) with just an altitude-hold feature, while trying to navigate?
Airlines which hire experienced pilots have little reason to be afraid of pilots hand-flying the plane. In a country (even our neighbor Canada?) where pilots have very limited experience, then maybe there is concern for their skills without automation to always save the day. Were not many modern airplanes designed to help new pilots avoid having to either hand-fly or handle a basic autopilot (the older type) with just an altitude-hold feature, while trying to navigate?
Flew the RJ for 4 years at SkyWest.
Low speed cues are a green line on the airspeed tape at 1.27 VS.
Agree with Huck about the emphasis on use of automation. On line most guys hand flew it to the flight levels.
I have to disagree about the old timers bagging on the RJ pilots of today not having adequate high altitude training. One must only look at the numbers. Thousands of legs per year in RJ's over the past decade and no airline fatalities on the aircraft from lack of high altitude knowledge that I am aware of, supposition only for the Pinnacle accident. I suppose one could make comparisons from 50's era pilots transitioning from prop planes to jets and regional pilots transitioning from props to jets. Not quite an equal measurement but the learning curve for the old timers was a helluva lot deadlier than for the regional guys making the leap.
Low speed cues are a green line on the airspeed tape at 1.27 VS.
Agree with Huck about the emphasis on use of automation. On line most guys hand flew it to the flight levels.
I have to disagree about the old timers bagging on the RJ pilots of today not having adequate high altitude training. One must only look at the numbers. Thousands of legs per year in RJ's over the past decade and no airline fatalities on the aircraft from lack of high altitude knowledge that I am aware of, supposition only for the Pinnacle accident. I suppose one could make comparisons from 50's era pilots transitioning from prop planes to jets and regional pilots transitioning from props to jets. Not quite an equal measurement but the learning curve for the old timers was a helluva lot deadlier than for the regional guys making the leap.
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FYI the CRJ2 V Ref is 1.25 Vs. Also, autopilot emphasis seems to be a need to alleviate the pressure on the new guys transitioning to their first jet. However, nothing precludes a line guy from hand flying a departure or arrival.
are we talking handflying with the fd or handflying raw data, the former puts a huge load on the non handling pilot who has to programme the fd for the handling pilot, do the checklists and handle the rt and do any paperwork the company may require
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'New' guys appear to be lacking basic skills....
Program your own FD, hec7or, instead of relying on the non-handling pilot.
FYI, this was done for many years on the first generation jet transports (B707's/DC8's) and was not a particular problem.
Twist/push the concerned knob for the desired result.
Are you suggesting that 'modern' guys can't do this very simple act?
If so, just maybe they don't belong at the pointy end.
Automation is all fine and dandy, but when guys forget basic skills, they are indeed up the creek without a paddle.
Why am I not surprised?
FYI, this was done for many years on the first generation jet transports (B707's/DC8's) and was not a particular problem.
Twist/push the concerned knob for the desired result.
Are you suggesting that 'modern' guys can't do this very simple act?
If so, just maybe they don't belong at the pointy end.
Automation is all fine and dandy, but when guys forget basic skills, they are indeed up the creek without a paddle.
Why am I not surprised?
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Roidelstein
Don't rise to 411A's bait. His track record of glib remarks speaks for itself. He's just a bitter and twisted old man who's days with 'a major' or probably over.
Don't rise to 411A's bait. His track record of glib remarks speaks for itself. He's just a bitter and twisted old man who's days with 'a major' or probably over.
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Think 411A might have a valid point, as does Roidelstein.....the PNF can very quickly become overloaded while the PF enhances his/her handling skills...common sense has to be the determining factor when to hand fly, and when to use the automatics....and of course strict compliance with SOP's is a given....in a busy crowded airspace area..automatics also free up both crewmmbers to maintain their outside vigilance as well...
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Gentlemen,
Reading through some of these posts, I have to say for me, they translate into not much more than 'pilot ego'.
The RJ is a sophisticated aeroplane with sophisticated avionics. There are issues with this aircraft as far as ergonomics is concerned, no question.
But it is, like many 'glass cockpit' aircraft out there, designed to make the maximum use of automation.
As a TRI on the RJ I have to say from my personal instructing experience, many RJ newbies lack the 'jet' skills required to fly this aircraft. Or, they simply don't have a complete understanding of jet flying and associated aerodynamics. (My apology for the generalization)
I am not saying they won't/don't acquire those skills over time.
Sticking to automation, the use of manual flight is for any pilot at anytime. With or without FD guidance. Manual skills need to be maintained. For sure. Flight mode and flight mode awareness are paramount with any of the glass airplanes out there and it is incumbant upon anyone flying the RJ or any other glass airplane to be completley familiar and conversant with autoflight and associated FMAs.
I still see the Dash 8, EMB, Saab 340 types jump into the RJ and want to fly attitude with no FD, or constantly SYNC the FD while not fully conversant with the technology.
My recommendation would be to learn and master the auto-magic first, before focusing on hand flying. Especially if you are on an initial sim course. Oh yes, and one more thing, make sure you time its use so you don't overload the PNF. Overloading the PNF is something the Regional pilots are very good at doing.
What part any of this has played in this recent event remains to be seen.
I have flown the RJ at FL410 and as long as it's flown by the numbers, guess what? It's a non-event.
Reading through some of these posts, I have to say for me, they translate into not much more than 'pilot ego'.
The RJ is a sophisticated aeroplane with sophisticated avionics. There are issues with this aircraft as far as ergonomics is concerned, no question.
But it is, like many 'glass cockpit' aircraft out there, designed to make the maximum use of automation.
As a TRI on the RJ I have to say from my personal instructing experience, many RJ newbies lack the 'jet' skills required to fly this aircraft. Or, they simply don't have a complete understanding of jet flying and associated aerodynamics. (My apology for the generalization)
I am not saying they won't/don't acquire those skills over time.
Sticking to automation, the use of manual flight is for any pilot at anytime. With or without FD guidance. Manual skills need to be maintained. For sure. Flight mode and flight mode awareness are paramount with any of the glass airplanes out there and it is incumbant upon anyone flying the RJ or any other glass airplane to be completley familiar and conversant with autoflight and associated FMAs.
I still see the Dash 8, EMB, Saab 340 types jump into the RJ and want to fly attitude with no FD, or constantly SYNC the FD while not fully conversant with the technology.
My recommendation would be to learn and master the auto-magic first, before focusing on hand flying. Especially if you are on an initial sim course. Oh yes, and one more thing, make sure you time its use so you don't overload the PNF. Overloading the PNF is something the Regional pilots are very good at doing.
What part any of this has played in this recent event remains to be seen.
I have flown the RJ at FL410 and as long as it's flown by the numbers, guess what? It's a non-event.
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hec7or
a bit off topic, but my opinion wrt paperwork is that it should only be done when a/p is engaged (other than operational flight plan checks). If a/p does not work, do the paperwork upon arrival on the ground.
Cheers
a bit off topic, but my opinion wrt paperwork is that it should only be done when a/p is engaged (other than operational flight plan checks). If a/p does not work, do the paperwork upon arrival on the ground.
Cheers
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I am suprised that they were able to get a CRj 200 upto FL410 - i have frequently operated positioning flights of this type and even with no pax on board these aircraft will struggle to get upto FL350 - esp an aircraft that has had this number of hours on the engines.
now the 700 , thats a different kettle of fish, more like a love sick angel - it'll get you upto FL410 even with reasonable pax number.
now the 700 , thats a different kettle of fish, more like a love sick angel - it'll get you upto FL410 even with reasonable pax number.
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give me an axe, I agree the aircraft might srtuggle to get to FL350 during summer, but for a positional flight it is no trouble whatsoever to reach it. During the rest of the year the aircraft appreciates the cooler air and climbs in a better mood...
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Pinnacle Airlines Reports Third Quarter Earnings of $12.6 Million
Pinnacle Airlines Corp. today reported third quarter operating revenue of $168.1 million, resulting in revenue growth over the comparable period in 2003 of 40 percent. The company produced operating income of $18.5 million, an operating margin of 11.0 percent, and net income of $12.6 million.
Operating revenue for the nine months ended September 30, 2004 was $454.1 million, resulting in revenue growth over the comparable period in 2003 of 38 percent. The company produced operating income of $49.8 million, an operating margin of 11.0 percent, and net income of $30.4 million.
The company's capacity in available seat miles (ASMs) increased by 58 percent, block hours increased by 56 percent, and cycles increased by 42 percent during the three months ended September 30, 2004, compared to the same period in 2003.
Pinnacle Airlines Corp. today reported third quarter operating revenue of $168.1 million, resulting in revenue growth over the comparable period in 2003 of 40 percent. The company produced operating income of $18.5 million, an operating margin of 11.0 percent, and net income of $12.6 million.
Operating revenue for the nine months ended September 30, 2004 was $454.1 million, resulting in revenue growth over the comparable period in 2003 of 38 percent. The company produced operating income of $49.8 million, an operating margin of 11.0 percent, and net income of $30.4 million.
The company's capacity in available seat miles (ASMs) increased by 58 percent, block hours increased by 56 percent, and cycles increased by 42 percent during the three months ended September 30, 2004, compared to the same period in 2003.
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Rumour mill has it that there were approximately 250 switch movements from the time of the engine flameout(s) to impact.
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Squwak 7777 - and what are you implying ?? I think you'll find if you were in a sphincter moving situation you to would be presssing the engine start buttons as often as you could.......
Squwak 7777 - and what are you implying ?? I think you'll find if you were in a sphincter moving situation you to would be presssing the engine start buttons as often as you could.......
I don't understand the 250 either, relative to engine start.
Could you outline for me what switches would be toggled for a start attempt and restart attempt.