Pilot arrested at Manchester (merged)
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1: Because the limits are as low as they can reliably detect in man or woman. Fatigue has the same effect. I see no effort to reduce the amount of hours we can be strapped into the aircraft.
2: Drink driving limits are considerably higher and you have to try really hard to be over those limits and if you are, you are indeed drunk.
3: The new laws are not a deterrent to crews with alcohol problems. This is an illness and should be treated as such. We all have a part to play in that.
4: Finally the tabloid headlines that scream “drunk pilot arrested” are usually far from the truth…as we all know and are never put right if the allegations are subsequently found to be not true.
2: Drink driving limits are considerably higher and you have to try really hard to be over those limits and if you are, you are indeed drunk.
3: The new laws are not a deterrent to crews with alcohol problems. This is an illness and should be treated as such. We all have a part to play in that.
4: Finally the tabloid headlines that scream “drunk pilot arrested” are usually far from the truth…as we all know and are never put right if the allegations are subsequently found to be not true.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: south east
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hear hear max_cont & flapsforty.
Eal401 and matkat - Nobody here is defending the pilot involved for the alledged offence.
Lets hope neither of you make a mistake in your private lives that impinges upon your ability to do your job. By your own code, you will never be forgiven, the reasons for your mistake never understood by anyone and the key thrown away forever.
Eal401 and matkat - Nobody here is defending the pilot involved for the alledged offence.
Lets hope neither of you make a mistake in your private lives that impinges upon your ability to do your job. By your own code, you will never be forgiven, the reasons for your mistake never understood by anyone and the key thrown away forever.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was an article today in HBL (main Swedish newspaper in Finland) that the pilot in question had just eaten a youghurt, and Finnair management is sure that's a false alarm:
http://195.255.83.67/cgi-bin/mediawe...y=07180949.txt
Who is going to believe that is a different thing...
Nevertheless, I think it is a shame that Manchester news (sorry, I don't remember the exact name of the web mag) published his name yesterday. In my opinion they should have waited for the results of blood tests first.
http://195.255.83.67/cgi-bin/mediawe...y=07180949.txt
Who is going to believe that is a different thing...
Nevertheless, I think it is a shame that Manchester news (sorry, I don't remember the exact name of the web mag) published his name yesterday. In my opinion they should have waited for the results of blood tests first.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sussex
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You don't know the circumstances as to why he may have been drinking and neither do I. The fact remains that if guilty, his aviation career is likely to be over. For that reason he has my sympathy.
The travelling public rely on the fact that their pilot is going to be fully capable of flying the aircraft. If they do not have this confidence, then haow many are going to fly?
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Balmullo,Scotland
Posts: 933
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orian Man,I am NOT criticising anyone,as I have said I do not Know the Man or the circumstances and if You would have taken the time to read my other posts you will realise that I have indeed "sailed close to the wind".For your benefit let me put a scenario to You(and this is hypothetical)
Drunk Pilot causes an accident and some people are hurt/injured he is found over the limit,what do YOU think the punishment should be?
But before You decide you have to take into account that his wife has been having an Affair his teenage Daughter is a Druggie and his Son has been killed recently by a drunk driver.Your punishment please.And please no flaming saying this is a ridiclous scenario as I know it is but is also a possible one.
Drunk Pilot causes an accident and some people are hurt/injured he is found over the limit,what do YOU think the punishment should be?
But before You decide you have to take into account that his wife has been having an Affair his teenage Daughter is a Druggie and his Son has been killed recently by a drunk driver.Your punishment please.And please no flaming saying this is a ridiclous scenario as I know it is but is also a possible one.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: south east
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Synthetic
Under no circumstances. I don't know where i'm supposed to have justified that there are !
matkat
I have read your other posts so please do not patronise me. As for your hypothetical scenario, if the guy has problems and the way he is dealing with them is to drink close to duty periods, he should not be flying. I am not arguing with anyone here that a pilot under the influence of drink should not be punished and his licence removed.
All I have said is that I feel sorry for the pilot in question because he (if guilty) has made a grave error and the ramifications for his career and family life will be far reaching.
You yourself have admitted you have sailed close to the wind and the alcohol limit now is very stringent. There for the grace of God go all of us. If it happened to you, you too would have my sympathy despite the fact humanity and pity are attributes you obviously reject.
Under no circumstances. I don't know where i'm supposed to have justified that there are !
matkat
I have read your other posts so please do not patronise me. As for your hypothetical scenario, if the guy has problems and the way he is dealing with them is to drink close to duty periods, he should not be flying. I am not arguing with anyone here that a pilot under the influence of drink should not be punished and his licence removed.
All I have said is that I feel sorry for the pilot in question because he (if guilty) has made a grave error and the ramifications for his career and family life will be far reaching.
You yourself have admitted you have sailed close to the wind and the alcohol limit now is very stringent. There for the grace of God go all of us. If it happened to you, you too would have my sympathy despite the fact humanity and pity are attributes you obviously reject.
ZbV
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Samsonite
Age: 51
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a) He was reported by a busdriver, a specialist that is
b) F/O on the flight and other crewmembers did not notice anything suspicious (a conspiracy perhaps)
c) Company has not suspended him
d) Pilot in question is, by the company, considered innocent until proven guilty
e) Something is wrong when it takes 6 weeks to get results of an blood alcohol test
d) in UK the tabloid papers are prosecutor, judge, jury and the hangman... No need for justice, in the public eye the man is guilty, regardless the truth
b) F/O on the flight and other crewmembers did not notice anything suspicious (a conspiracy perhaps)
c) Company has not suspended him
d) Pilot in question is, by the company, considered innocent until proven guilty
e) Something is wrong when it takes 6 weeks to get results of an blood alcohol test
d) in UK the tabloid papers are prosecutor, judge, jury and the hangman... No need for justice, in the public eye the man is guilty, regardless the truth
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems JJ Flyer has the best scenario...and has the thought process to actually come to a very reasonable conclusion.
Others here it seems have their head up the place where the 'sun don't shine'.
Hardly surprising, is it not?
Others here it seems have their head up the place where the 'sun don't shine'.
Hardly surprising, is it not?
Still behind the curtain
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Botnia,
According to the Swedish-language newspaper you posted, it was an evening flight to Turkey. Either the captain was an absolute alkie to take a drink upon departure, or his yogurt did him in. Usually, in these so-called "drunk pilot" circumstances, the ones who get caught are the early-morning riser pilots who have had one too many the night before and the alcometer still reads positive. It seems strange that this guy had a few in the afternoon or evening just before his flight. I'm glad Finnair is standing behind him and as they say, it would be the first time a Finnair pilot has been connected for alcohol abuse.
According to the Swedish-language newspaper you posted, it was an evening flight to Turkey. Either the captain was an absolute alkie to take a drink upon departure, or his yogurt did him in. Usually, in these so-called "drunk pilot" circumstances, the ones who get caught are the early-morning riser pilots who have had one too many the night before and the alcometer still reads positive. It seems strange that this guy had a few in the afternoon or evening just before his flight. I'm glad Finnair is standing behind him and as they say, it would be the first time a Finnair pilot has been connected for alcohol abuse.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Near Stalyvegas
Age: 78
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ONE thing that is missing here is
Was the Pilot "Breathalised"?
If "yes" and a "positive" result, then TSB!
If "no" etc.....
Wait for the Official outcome before passing sentence.
watp,iktch
Was the Pilot "Breathalised"?
If "yes" and a "positive" result, then TSB!
If "no" etc.....
Wait for the Official outcome before passing sentence.
watp,iktch
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max Count, a word for small spherical objects springs to mind.
The UK drink drive limits are 4 times the limits under the new act. In fact, if you have just over a pint you are probably over the UK drink drive limit. In most cases, you will certainly NOT be drunk. And trust me, you do not have to try hard to be over.
As regards to the aviation limit being at the limit of what can be detected...Shoe makers. Several countries have a ZERO drink drive limit. They have no problem detecting any alcohol in the body.
If Pilots are suffering from the illness then go sick. As has been pointed out there is no excuse nor is it reasonable to fly a plane load of passengers while having had too much to drink.
Sorry to be blunt, but get your facts correct and I wont have to be.
JJflyer.
It takes the same time to get a drink drive blood test result. Why is that a problem?
So the bus driver reported him? OK, why should he not? If you got on a bus and smelt alcohol on the driver I presume you would do nothing then?
Your right he is innocent until proven otherwise, some people seem to believe he's innocent, because he's a pilot.
The UK drink drive limits are 4 times the limits under the new act. In fact, if you have just over a pint you are probably over the UK drink drive limit. In most cases, you will certainly NOT be drunk. And trust me, you do not have to try hard to be over.
As regards to the aviation limit being at the limit of what can be detected...Shoe makers. Several countries have a ZERO drink drive limit. They have no problem detecting any alcohol in the body.
If Pilots are suffering from the illness then go sick. As has been pointed out there is no excuse nor is it reasonable to fly a plane load of passengers while having had too much to drink.
Sorry to be blunt, but get your facts correct and I wont have to be.
JJflyer.
It takes the same time to get a drink drive blood test result. Why is that a problem?
So the bus driver reported him? OK, why should he not? If you got on a bus and smelt alcohol on the driver I presume you would do nothing then?
Your right he is innocent until proven otherwise, some people seem to believe he's innocent, because he's a pilot.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering what the limit actually is?? Does anyone have an actual figure?? Will one be over the limit if they have just two beers with their meals the night before (12 hours prior to the shift), I'm sure you could squeeze some amount of Alcohol out if you tried.
ZbV
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Samsonite
Age: 51
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back home we have one of the srtictest drink/drive laws.
It takes no more than 3 days to get the results for a blood alcohol test, and it is called operating under influence. One is first breathalyze tested and then if there is a question will the suspect set for a blood test.
Breathalyzer tests are notoriously inaccurate, We experimented with eating fruit as after a few hours of having apples, oranges, bananas etc breathalyzer reading went up.
I'll repeat my previous post
a) He was reported by a busdriver, a specialist that is
b) F/O on the flight and other crewmembers did not notice anything suspicious (a conspiracy perhaps)
c) Company has not suspended him
d) Pilot in question is, by the company, considered innocent until proven guilty
e) Something is wrong when it takes 6 weeks to get results of an blood alcohol test
d) in UK the tabloid papers are prosecutor, judge, jury and the hangman... No need for justice, in the public eye the man is guilty, regardless the truth
It takes no more than 3 days to get the results for a blood alcohol test, and it is called operating under influence. One is first breathalyze tested and then if there is a question will the suspect set for a blood test.
Breathalyzer tests are notoriously inaccurate, We experimented with eating fruit as after a few hours of having apples, oranges, bananas etc breathalyzer reading went up.
I'll repeat my previous post
a) He was reported by a busdriver, a specialist that is
b) F/O on the flight and other crewmembers did not notice anything suspicious (a conspiracy perhaps)
c) Company has not suspended him
d) Pilot in question is, by the company, considered innocent until proven guilty
e) Something is wrong when it takes 6 weeks to get results of an blood alcohol test
d) in UK the tabloid papers are prosecutor, judge, jury and the hangman... No need for justice, in the public eye the man is guilty, regardless the truth
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bjcc , notice how I got your name right…you should try it some time.
Yes the drink drive limit is 4 times the fly limit. I still believe that if you have drunk enough to be over the drive limit and still be over the limit in the morning after, you have had to try really hard. If you drive after a night down the pub and get into your car and drive you are trying very hard to be charged with drink driving through sheer stupidity…you never know exactly what your BAC is so you’re risking it. Alcohol affects different people in different ways depending on many factors, as you well know. Your statement that the limit is just over a pint is if I may say “shoe makers”
Because I have a family member who is a serving police officer I had the chance to be breathalysed after a few beers one evening, (no I wasn’t driving) I was shown to be under the limit but I was definitely feeling the drink. I would never have considered myself fit to drive but the law said otherwise…so if you don’t mind I won’t trust you.
I said the limits are as low as they can reliably detect in man or woman That would of course depend on what equipment they the police officer had with them on the day. As the old breathalysers are replaced I’m sure the sensitivity of the new units would naturally improve. What other counties do is irrelevant unless you are in that country committing the offence. FWIW IMHO a zero BAC requirement for certain drivers does nothing to improve driving, it only increases the number of driving offences.
The law is IMHO more about harmonisation than about safety. As I said fatigue and stress have a similar affect on performance and decision-making. But vast amounts of pressure is applied by the airlines to ensure they get as little restriction on the duty hours as they can get away with…after all there’s bigger profits to be had.
The trouble with alcoholics is that in the vast majority of instances, they can’t or won’t admit they have a problem, so how do you expect them to report sick?
Just for the record bjcc, I don’t have an opinion as to whether the pilot is innocent or guilty, I just get that feeling of déjà vu whenever you read of yet another drunk pilot in the tabloids. If and when the pilot is found not to be guilty, I bet I won’t see any shock headlines stating that fact.
I don’t know of any pilot that believes drinking and flying is ok. We are generally a pretty professional lot. True there is always the exception, but there are better ways of dealing with that.
Yes the drink drive limit is 4 times the fly limit. I still believe that if you have drunk enough to be over the drive limit and still be over the limit in the morning after, you have had to try really hard. If you drive after a night down the pub and get into your car and drive you are trying very hard to be charged with drink driving through sheer stupidity…you never know exactly what your BAC is so you’re risking it. Alcohol affects different people in different ways depending on many factors, as you well know. Your statement that the limit is just over a pint is if I may say “shoe makers”
Because I have a family member who is a serving police officer I had the chance to be breathalysed after a few beers one evening, (no I wasn’t driving) I was shown to be under the limit but I was definitely feeling the drink. I would never have considered myself fit to drive but the law said otherwise…so if you don’t mind I won’t trust you.
I said the limits are as low as they can reliably detect in man or woman That would of course depend on what equipment they the police officer had with them on the day. As the old breathalysers are replaced I’m sure the sensitivity of the new units would naturally improve. What other counties do is irrelevant unless you are in that country committing the offence. FWIW IMHO a zero BAC requirement for certain drivers does nothing to improve driving, it only increases the number of driving offences.
The law is IMHO more about harmonisation than about safety. As I said fatigue and stress have a similar affect on performance and decision-making. But vast amounts of pressure is applied by the airlines to ensure they get as little restriction on the duty hours as they can get away with…after all there’s bigger profits to be had.
The trouble with alcoholics is that in the vast majority of instances, they can’t or won’t admit they have a problem, so how do you expect them to report sick?
Just for the record bjcc, I don’t have an opinion as to whether the pilot is innocent or guilty, I just get that feeling of déjà vu whenever you read of yet another drunk pilot in the tabloids. If and when the pilot is found not to be guilty, I bet I won’t see any shock headlines stating that fact.
I don’t know of any pilot that believes drinking and flying is ok. We are generally a pretty professional lot. True there is always the exception, but there are better ways of dealing with that.
Last edited by max_cont; 26th Aug 2004 at 08:15.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought that most civilised parts of the world individuals were innocent until proven guilty; the general tone of this tread is rather damming towards this chap based on little evidence.
Can anyone be certain that a biased third party has not decided to cause trouble or a zealous member of staff / public was trying to protect the public?
Can anyone be certain that a biased third party has not decided to cause trouble or a zealous member of staff / public was trying to protect the public?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
max_cont
Firstly I was a serving Police Officer. The Drink Driving limit in the UK is approx equal to 2.5 units of alcohol for the avarage person.
1 unit of alcohol = 1/2 pint of normal strength beer.
Therefore 2.5 units = 1.25 pints.
Most people are not drunk on that amount. And no one is suggesting they are. The shoe markers are back with you.
I have no idea when you were breathtested, and whether it was the old 'bag' type on the newer ESD. If it was the bag, there were unreliable and thats the reason why there arn't used anymore. If it was the ESD, then I might suggest that you may well have still been going up. The alcohol content in your body does not just happen it takes time to absorbed.
I would suggest therefore (and I couldn't care less if you trust me, its not my driving licence at risk) you re think your opinons.
To say you would have to be drunk the night before to still be over the limit the following day is again not true. I have breath tested myself the morning after a few drinks and I was still over. I certainly wasn't drunk the night before.
I am fully aware of the fact that unless you are a country that has a zero limit it doesn't affect you. I pointed it out to show that BAC is mesurable in quatities less than the UK flying limit. It may be it only increases the driving offence numbers, of course it maybe that it also makes everyone aware that they cannot drink and drive at all.
I have read very little about this particular case. I am aware the press make a fuss over this sort of thing and they don't retract in the event of someone being proven innocent. That however goes for every occupation they can sensationalise, not just pilots.
Firstly I was a serving Police Officer. The Drink Driving limit in the UK is approx equal to 2.5 units of alcohol for the avarage person.
1 unit of alcohol = 1/2 pint of normal strength beer.
Therefore 2.5 units = 1.25 pints.
Most people are not drunk on that amount. And no one is suggesting they are. The shoe markers are back with you.
I have no idea when you were breathtested, and whether it was the old 'bag' type on the newer ESD. If it was the bag, there were unreliable and thats the reason why there arn't used anymore. If it was the ESD, then I might suggest that you may well have still been going up. The alcohol content in your body does not just happen it takes time to absorbed.
I would suggest therefore (and I couldn't care less if you trust me, its not my driving licence at risk) you re think your opinons.
To say you would have to be drunk the night before to still be over the limit the following day is again not true. I have breath tested myself the morning after a few drinks and I was still over. I certainly wasn't drunk the night before.
I am fully aware of the fact that unless you are a country that has a zero limit it doesn't affect you. I pointed it out to show that BAC is mesurable in quatities less than the UK flying limit. It may be it only increases the driving offence numbers, of course it maybe that it also makes everyone aware that they cannot drink and drive at all.
I have read very little about this particular case. I am aware the press make a fuss over this sort of thing and they don't retract in the event of someone being proven innocent. That however goes for every occupation they can sensationalise, not just pilots.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Balmullo,Scotland
Posts: 933
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orian Man,my apologies if you thought I was patronizing you as I most certainly was not,it only appeared to me that you had read only one of my posts.
as you say I have admitted that I have sailed close to the wind but I have never went into it.
as you say I have admitted that I have sailed close to the wind but I have never went into it.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Manchester
Age: 79
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If this pilot is genuinely guilty then he deserves the full force of the law. There ought not to be misplaced sympathy even though you do wonder what would lead to people doing this.
In the U.K. people are innocent until proven guilty - (though this principle seems rather "thin" in some situations). Guilt has to be proven in court - beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'll bet that any judge sentencing an aviation professional for this offence will be thinking of imprisonment. The court can hear mitigation - (that's where all the points about emotional problems etc. come in) - but it's going to have to be damn good to save someone from prison.
There are two possible offences - (1) being unfit for duty - i.e. ability impaired by drink / drugs - (2) Exceeding the prescribed limit which, for most aviation professionals, is set at only 9 microgrammes alocohol per 100 millilitres of breath. (Licensed aircraft engineers have a higher limit - does this make sense? - it doesn't to me).
In the U.K., excess alcohol cases against aviation professionals are nearly always going to end up in the Crown Court which can hand down up to 2 years for the offence. The Magistrates Courts do not have power to imprison people for these offences even though they can imprison motorists guilty of excess alcohol.
Loss of job / reputation would follow all this .......... is it worth it?
peatair
In the U.K. people are innocent until proven guilty - (though this principle seems rather "thin" in some situations). Guilt has to be proven in court - beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'll bet that any judge sentencing an aviation professional for this offence will be thinking of imprisonment. The court can hear mitigation - (that's where all the points about emotional problems etc. come in) - but it's going to have to be damn good to save someone from prison.
There are two possible offences - (1) being unfit for duty - i.e. ability impaired by drink / drugs - (2) Exceeding the prescribed limit which, for most aviation professionals, is set at only 9 microgrammes alocohol per 100 millilitres of breath. (Licensed aircraft engineers have a higher limit - does this make sense? - it doesn't to me).
In the U.K., excess alcohol cases against aviation professionals are nearly always going to end up in the Crown Court which can hand down up to 2 years for the offence. The Magistrates Courts do not have power to imprison people for these offences even though they can imprison motorists guilty of excess alcohol.
Loss of job / reputation would follow all this .......... is it worth it?
peatair