Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives?
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In every profession you find the good, bad and indifferent.
My enthusiasm for aviation probably stemmed from hours on the jump seat with my old man in the front and he never declined flight deck visits unless there were technical hitches.
My impression is that the type of pilot who is anti the jump seat being occupied, is the one who lacks self confidence and needs to hind behind that locked door. Like I said, good bad and indifferent.
Sunfish; Sterile cockpit - no friends nor family! Please tell me what % of all aircraft in the air at any one time have closed cockpit doors - please remember all the commuter a/c and light a/c flying around where pilots are in close contact with everyone else in the plane. Get a Life - please
My enthusiasm for aviation probably stemmed from hours on the jump seat with my old man in the front and he never declined flight deck visits unless there were technical hitches.
My impression is that the type of pilot who is anti the jump seat being occupied, is the one who lacks self confidence and needs to hind behind that locked door. Like I said, good bad and indifferent.
Sunfish; Sterile cockpit - no friends nor family! Please tell me what % of all aircraft in the air at any one time have closed cockpit doors - please remember all the commuter a/c and light a/c flying around where pilots are in close contact with everyone else in the plane. Get a Life - please
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Captain H: if that's your worry, then maybe you should both take separate flights...
White Knight: I am not so worried about crew (cabin or flight deck) jump seating, but would rather not have relatives, and definitely not random passengers who are victims of an overbooked flight. As an FO, I have FA say in the matter, despite being asked with the old "Are you happy with that?" to which I reply "No" and am always overuled, due to the fantastic CRM ethic in the company that I work in.
The flight deck is my working space, it isn't very big, and I do feel self conscious with anybody sat on my shoulder. I would prefer that they weren't there. At least another crew person will have the deceny to keep quiet whilst I am working. This is quite a different reason than a security issue, I grant you.
Also, the policy has been decreed and decided in my company, that no one other than positioning crew are allowed on the jump seat, and that the door must be locked. Unless Flight Ops Director says it's OK. Which seems to allow anybody not covered by the above to travel on the jump seat. If the FOD or Captain says it's happening, then that's final. As I say, as an FO iget FA say in the matter, other than the formality of being asked and ignored.
White Knight: I am not so worried about crew (cabin or flight deck) jump seating, but would rather not have relatives, and definitely not random passengers who are victims of an overbooked flight. As an FO, I have FA say in the matter, despite being asked with the old "Are you happy with that?" to which I reply "No" and am always overuled, due to the fantastic CRM ethic in the company that I work in.
The flight deck is my working space, it isn't very big, and I do feel self conscious with anybody sat on my shoulder. I would prefer that they weren't there. At least another crew person will have the deceny to keep quiet whilst I am working. This is quite a different reason than a security issue, I grant you.
Also, the policy has been decreed and decided in my company, that no one other than positioning crew are allowed on the jump seat, and that the door must be locked. Unless Flight Ops Director says it's OK. Which seems to allow anybody not covered by the above to travel on the jump seat. If the FOD or Captain says it's happening, then that's final. As I say, as an FO iget FA say in the matter, other than the formality of being asked and ignored.
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A lot of claptrap and a lot of common sense in this thread in my opinion. Having someone in the j/s is not a big deal. The only reason that the restrictions were introduced was to appease the public and more importantly, to enable each Transport Minister in each country to be able to stand up in his Parliament and assure the country that they were doing everything in their power and that their airlines were SAFE.
We all know what a lot of Cr*p that is but it was a political decision and had nothing to do with security.
There IS a perceived problem by the public in seeing flight deck doors being opened and closed to often expecially on short sectors but that's easily sorted out.
I for one have always welcomed our own staff, relatives, staff of other airlines and sometimes their relatives. Other Captains have aalways had a different view and would accept nobody. That is their prerogative.
It is a very simple matter to inform any j/s guest as to the rules of behaviour and I've never had one who didn't follow those rules.
Count me in among those who agree the rules should be relaxed. Just don't expect our stupid self-serving politicians from all countries to agree.
After all, if they didn't have this as a crutch they might have to do something that would actually enhance security!! Meantime my wife and yours are regarded as potential terrorists while a staff member whom I've never seen before, is not.
Such is life ! The lunatics have really taken over the asylum.
We all know what a lot of Cr*p that is but it was a political decision and had nothing to do with security.
There IS a perceived problem by the public in seeing flight deck doors being opened and closed to often expecially on short sectors but that's easily sorted out.
I for one have always welcomed our own staff, relatives, staff of other airlines and sometimes their relatives. Other Captains have aalways had a different view and would accept nobody. That is their prerogative.
It is a very simple matter to inform any j/s guest as to the rules of behaviour and I've never had one who didn't follow those rules.
Count me in among those who agree the rules should be relaxed. Just don't expect our stupid self-serving politicians from all countries to agree.
After all, if they didn't have this as a crutch they might have to do something that would actually enhance security!! Meantime my wife and yours are regarded as potential terrorists while a staff member whom I've never seen before, is not.
Such is life ! The lunatics have really taken over the asylum.
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Is there not a good argument that having someone in the jump seat will at least delay the path of a terrorist to the flight crew.
The USA had a locked door policy long before 9/11 and yet they still made it into the flight deck.
I have had the pleasure in the past of many jump seat rides and loved every one so why should this be denied to everybody else who can pass a simple check.
Now im in the flight deck i would personally have no problem with it for the reasons above providing at least you know the person some checks completed or ID pass has been shown.
When i've dead headed back in the jump seat the skipper always mentioned that an off duty crew meber was sitting in the cockpit.
As a slight aside how many two crew aircraft have had to land due to a member of the crew falling ill or worse with a qualified comercial pilot down the back who has not been encouraged to show thier pass on boarding. At the very least they can keep an eye on the rest of the SLF and be useful in that respect.
Interesting post!
The USA had a locked door policy long before 9/11 and yet they still made it into the flight deck.
I have had the pleasure in the past of many jump seat rides and loved every one so why should this be denied to everybody else who can pass a simple check.
Now im in the flight deck i would personally have no problem with it for the reasons above providing at least you know the person some checks completed or ID pass has been shown.
When i've dead headed back in the jump seat the skipper always mentioned that an off duty crew meber was sitting in the cockpit.
As a slight aside how many two crew aircraft have had to land due to a member of the crew falling ill or worse with a qualified comercial pilot down the back who has not been encouraged to show thier pass on boarding. At the very least they can keep an eye on the rest of the SLF and be useful in that respect.
Interesting post!
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How about this senario...
My wife is no longer allowed to travel in the flight deck to accompany me on those lovely long trips. So I buy her a ticket on my flight. She used to work for my company as crew so often ends up chatting in the forward galley. When I come out of the cave for a pee she is there so we end up chatting. It would not be that difficult for a terrorist to work out who she is. Sometimes I even go to the checkin desk with her anyway, so either way they know she is my wife.
So the hijack becomes very simple - bring her to the door with a knife at her throat and I WILL let them in - no doubt.
However, if she was safely locked away in the flight deck.....
My wife is no longer allowed to travel in the flight deck to accompany me on those lovely long trips. So I buy her a ticket on my flight. She used to work for my company as crew so often ends up chatting in the forward galley. When I come out of the cave for a pee she is there so we end up chatting. It would not be that difficult for a terrorist to work out who she is. Sometimes I even go to the checkin desk with her anyway, so either way they know she is my wife.
So the hijack becomes very simple - bring her to the door with a knife at her throat and I WILL let them in - no doubt.
However, if she was safely locked away in the flight deck.....
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Well said Boeing Freak
Some common sense at last. The bottom line is that (UK and USA excepted), it would appear to be common practice to allow staff and qualified family members use the jumpseat. Note staff and qualified family - not terrorists, not bombers.
If the Captain is happy to take someone, whats the problem? If he's not, well, thats sad, but it's the way it is.
I will be forever grateful to the various BA/SAA/QF and DLH Captains who looked after me in previous years, and I look forward to repaying the favour whenever I can.
It's not a hardship or an inconvenience to have someone sitting behind you - anyone who says it is has a serious chip underneath the epaulettes on both shoulders.
If the Captain is happy to take someone, whats the problem? If he's not, well, thats sad, but it's the way it is.
I will be forever grateful to the various BA/SAA/QF and DLH Captains who looked after me in previous years, and I look forward to repaying the favour whenever I can.
It's not a hardship or an inconvenience to have someone sitting behind you - anyone who says it is has a serious chip underneath the epaulettes on both shoulders.
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Old King Sole
Argue the point not the man....
My Operations Manual or the Procedures Manual tells me what I can and can’t do.
Other than the actual Piloting Skills, most procedures / regulations are made off the aircraft by non Technical Crew, and subjected to various levels of review and I suspect a Safety Analysis Case Study undertaken by the risk assessment folk.
If you want to take your Mum or Dad or local Concubine on your Bi Annual Simulator Check, where any slip may change your career path, then feel free to do so......but leave them out of the aircraft that my company has paid hard money, to send our crews from place to place.
And yes in our industry and my company, we do have Jumpseats and Cockpit Doors, but you’re forgiven for this oversight.
My Operations Manual or the Procedures Manual tells me what I can and can’t do.
Other than the actual Piloting Skills, most procedures / regulations are made off the aircraft by non Technical Crew, and subjected to various levels of review and I suspect a Safety Analysis Case Study undertaken by the risk assessment folk.
If you want to take your Mum or Dad or local Concubine on your Bi Annual Simulator Check, where any slip may change your career path, then feel free to do so......but leave them out of the aircraft that my company has paid hard money, to send our crews from place to place.
And yes in our industry and my company, we do have Jumpseats and Cockpit Doors, but you’re forgiven for this oversight.
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BOGOF: I have read the thread that you've quoted, and very good it is too. It's one thing dealing with individuals, but quite another dealing with a company ethic that supports the captain even when he is clearly wrong in favour of the co-pilot when he is clearly correct. Enough said in this thread.
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hmmm. wandering off the subject a little perhaps?
can anyone say what the policy of US carriers is now? I know that jump seating was stopped in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 but have heard that some carriers DO now allow relatives.
can anyone say what the policy of US carriers is now? I know that jump seating was stopped in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 but have heard that some carriers DO now allow relatives.
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Old Man Rotor
I DO have fellow collegues looking when I perform in the OR. Yes, also students, and relatives sometimes from the patients. (not my wive who starts to vomit seeing eye surgery). Nothing to hide, they take a seat and stay at that seat so they don't disturb OPS.
They speak when spoken to, or ask politely and don't expect an answer if I'm not able, I enjoy telling what I do, ( and this way also keeping the nurses awake)
One of the reasons going on and wanting to have an ATP, and spending lots of $$$ in the U.S. economy was a jumpseat offered to me on a 73 by a captain (after showing my, license, PPL at that time) who really enjoyed his work and was able to let the FO fly the plane, while having the great overview.
It was one of my life events, seeing this big bird land AMS
Travelling with my wife and kid (1 at that time) he knew I was no risk at all.
This great pilot also had time to have some conversation with some other pax in the cabin and really made everyone feel at ease. (this was post 9/11)
But maybe I'm at my young age already oldfashioned and should we all persue aircraft without pilots, and lock up all pilots in front untill that 'happy' time........
I DO have fellow collegues looking when I perform in the OR. Yes, also students, and relatives sometimes from the patients. (not my wive who starts to vomit seeing eye surgery). Nothing to hide, they take a seat and stay at that seat so they don't disturb OPS.
They speak when spoken to, or ask politely and don't expect an answer if I'm not able, I enjoy telling what I do, ( and this way also keeping the nurses awake)
One of the reasons going on and wanting to have an ATP, and spending lots of $$$ in the U.S. economy was a jumpseat offered to me on a 73 by a captain (after showing my, license, PPL at that time) who really enjoyed his work and was able to let the FO fly the plane, while having the great overview.
It was one of my life events, seeing this big bird land AMS
Travelling with my wife and kid (1 at that time) he knew I was no risk at all.
This great pilot also had time to have some conversation with some other pax in the cabin and really made everyone feel at ease. (this was post 9/11)
But maybe I'm at my young age already oldfashioned and should we all persue aircraft without pilots, and lock up all pilots in front untill that 'happy' time........
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I fly a freighter that from time to time carries live horses. A groomer must accompany the animals on these trips. However the groomer is allowed to ride on the flightdeck. Now to say my wife or parents are more of a security threat than a guy with a 4 inch needle and bag full of horse tranqullizers that I've never met before seems to me to be a little ass backwards. Furthermore we allow any employee jumpseat privelages as well. FYI all this is approved in our company and flight ops manual. Whats even more laughable is that Transport forced us to put the reinforced doors and peep hole on the flight deck door of the freighter. Like some terrorist is going to stuff himself in a box, buried in a can in P12 and cut his way through 11 other cans and the bulkhead to get to the flightdeck door! What a joke.
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I am a GA pilot trying to make it in aviation.
Before Sept 11, I always tried for the jump-seat.
I would approach the captain before filights and inroduce myself.
Most of the time I flew on an airine that I had friend pilots
and would mention there names.
Most of the time, the Captain would give me the opportunity.
I am a more mature person close to 1/2 century mark and it was a great rush since I know of making it now in aviation is non existant.
I understand the security aspects now. But really if somebody wanted to hijack an aircraft now, I think the other passengers
would not be sitting down doing nothing anymore.
Those lights gave me the desire to continue flying and trying.
Myself I hope they would let people back in
My 2 toughts.
Before Sept 11, I always tried for the jump-seat.
I would approach the captain before filights and inroduce myself.
Most of the time I flew on an airine that I had friend pilots
and would mention there names.
Most of the time, the Captain would give me the opportunity.
I am a more mature person close to 1/2 century mark and it was a great rush since I know of making it now in aviation is non existant.
I understand the security aspects now. But really if somebody wanted to hijack an aircraft now, I think the other passengers
would not be sitting down doing nothing anymore.
Those lights gave me the desire to continue flying and trying.
Myself I hope they would let people back in
My 2 toughts.
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You all seem to have fogotten that these stupid rules that we have had imposed on us are not for the protection of the passengers or the public on the ground , these rules are writen to protect the politcians from the media !.
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Good point A & C. The govts have been "seen to be doing something". Given the current restrictions on opening the flt deck door, I would like to see the forward toilet on my aircraft for crew use only. This has been seen to work on long flights on a different contract that I have flown and evrything worked fine. Forward of row one on my ac should be a no go area for pax. This would make it easier and safer for us when the door has to be opened. This would IMO enhance safety much more than preventing my Mother from flying on a jump seat. Next, plastic cutlery: I managed to cut my finger quite deeply whilst opening the nasty plastic covering of the cutlery pack; the plastic knife serrations were very sharp, much sharper I contend, than a standard metal cutlery knife. I will ask you to use your imagination rather than post here how to do damage to someone with such a plastic knife - for obvious reasons.
I would have no problem if my colleague brought a relative along on the flight deck. It would relieve the tedium of being locked in to my small cage for hours on end with just one other for company.
I would have no problem if my colleague brought a relative along on the flight deck. It would relieve the tedium of being locked in to my small cage for hours on end with just one other for company.
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Big furore on FR flight over relative taking jumpseat
In answer to the question posed by the thread starter it appears not.
It appears a relative of someone working in FR administration I think, "sneaked' into a FR flight deck just before take off (presumably with the knowledge of the pilots), was discovered during last minute security checks. He was asked to leave the aircraft & his bags were off loaded. Since this 'contravened FR's security policy who will only allow staff to fly on this seat the eh 'you know what' has hit the fan big time now the media have got hold of the story. Whoever wrote it has obviously never seen the inside of a cockpit in their entire life judging by the dross that was written.
It appears a relative of someone working in FR administration I think, "sneaked' into a FR flight deck just before take off (presumably with the knowledge of the pilots), was discovered during last minute security checks. He was asked to leave the aircraft & his bags were off loaded. Since this 'contravened FR's security policy who will only allow staff to fly on this seat the eh 'you know what' has hit the fan big time now the media have got hold of the story. Whoever wrote it has obviously never seen the inside of a cockpit in their entire life judging by the dross that was written.
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Think yourselves lucky. As a qualified technician for my employer (major US "express" freight carrier), based in the UK ,who can sign the airworthiness release and the search form should the nosegear door security seal be damaged/missing, i can no longer ride in the aircraft (not even the galley jumpseats outside the cockpit with the fortified security door!) If the airplane leaves my station on a trip to a destination with no mx cover, i have to fly commercial and meet it there. Gone are the days of going down on the gen-dec as a mx rep. Does the company not release how hard it is to commercial around the world with a tool box these days AND turn up at an airport you've never been to and try and get an airside pass?? Still, grooms/handlers/couriers who have no association with the company whatsoever can get on just fine. Technicians from other carriers are pi**ing themsleves laughing at myself and my colleagues, and lets be honest, who can blame them???
Bitch over
Bitch over
Last edited by Flightmech; 21st Aug 2004 at 21:40.
Forewarned is Forearmed
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I have had a few jump seat flights prior to 911 here in the UK, but not as much as a sniff of one since,good luck to those who can still do it, I hope it inspires you as much as it did my years ago.
I know how a lot of you feel about this as I have a similar problem, I work as an airside safety Officer, I am not allowed to bring any member of my family airside to sit in with me during my shift now, to get a feel for what I have done for the past 20+ years, in fact, I have even been stopped myself & refused access outside my working hours on several occaisions, when carrying out additional, legitimate work related tasks
Sometimes I wonder where these
rules come from.
I know how a lot of you feel about this as I have a similar problem, I work as an airside safety Officer, I am not allowed to bring any member of my family airside to sit in with me during my shift now, to get a feel for what I have done for the past 20+ years, in fact, I have even been stopped myself & refused access outside my working hours on several occaisions, when carrying out additional, legitimate work related tasks
Sometimes I wonder where these
rules come from.
the lunatic fringe
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I watched my son being born, grow up, and fly around with me on the jump seat.
Now he is treated as a potential terrorist.
It is just too stupid for words.
L337
Now he is treated as a potential terrorist.
It is just too stupid for words.
L337
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This has nothing to do with ego.
From comments made, it sounds as though those pilots who are against allowing family into the flightdeck are those who have a confidence issue.
It's interesting that JW411 hasn't made any attempt to back up his thoughts on why family should not be allowed to sit on the jumpseat.
It is not your average office job and any family member would be fascinated to see what their husband/wife/son/father/etc does for a living.
It was several jumpseat rides when I was a lad that inspired me to become a commercial pilot.
Surely if the family member in question boarded the a/c when the crew did and sat on the jumpseat before pax boarded, was only let out in flight if they needed to use the lav and when let out the FD door was sheided by a curtain, the pax would not even have to know.
What a farce.
From comments made, it sounds as though those pilots who are against allowing family into the flightdeck are those who have a confidence issue.
It's interesting that JW411 hasn't made any attempt to back up his thoughts on why family should not be allowed to sit on the jumpseat.
It is not your average office job and any family member would be fascinated to see what their husband/wife/son/father/etc does for a living.
It was several jumpseat rides when I was a lad that inspired me to become a commercial pilot.
Surely if the family member in question boarded the a/c when the crew did and sat on the jumpseat before pax boarded, was only let out in flight if they needed to use the lav and when let out the FD door was sheided by a curtain, the pax would not even have to know.
What a farce.
Trislander:
The question at the beginning of this thread was:
"Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives".
I gave a very honest answer that in my opinion now is NOT the the time. I really think it is quite naive to imagine that the powers that be are likely to change their minds for a very long time yet regardless of what you or I might think.
I do not recall giving any opinion either way on this thread as to whether it is or is not desirable to have family members on the flight deck. That simply was not the question asked.
The question at the beginning of this thread was:
"Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives".
I gave a very honest answer that in my opinion now is NOT the the time. I really think it is quite naive to imagine that the powers that be are likely to change their minds for a very long time yet regardless of what you or I might think.
I do not recall giving any opinion either way on this thread as to whether it is or is not desirable to have family members on the flight deck. That simply was not the question asked.