The end of cheap pilots
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Atlanta Driver
Please start counting and tell me how many Brits are based in Iceland???
MOR in 1989 all those in the EU would not have been considered then perhaps which is not the case today which is why the scenario then will not repeat itself today.
Please start counting and tell me how many Brits are based in Iceland???
MOR in 1989 all those in the EU would not have been considered then perhaps which is not the case today which is why the scenario then will not repeat itself today.
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MOR, you rang a few bells there.
I started in this daft business about that time. I remember 5 interviews and 4 job offers in 3 weeks. I only had 400 hours. I ended up flying a B757 for AE. I was out of work for a year after that fiasco and it has been an uncomfortable roller coaster ever since. I wish I had never bothered.
The pilot shortage was delicious then. Will it be that way again? Well, I dunno.
Then, you could reasonably sit in the right hand seat of any old turbo prop. If you were rubbish the crusty old git next to you could cope. These days it is different. Most newbies have to start on a jet and the entry standards are much, much higher and more expensive to boot.
The supply is different. Jag mates excepted there is not the exodus from the military. Also, it is much easier to get a job in Blighty if you are not a British National. Air UK excepted, you were generally British those days.
The bottom line for an entry pilot is higher, the airlines have to plan a little bit further ahead and the supply is more diverse.
It is harder to predict, but I don't think we will see an acute shortage again.
Just my twopence worth.
I started in this daft business about that time. I remember 5 interviews and 4 job offers in 3 weeks. I only had 400 hours. I ended up flying a B757 for AE. I was out of work for a year after that fiasco and it has been an uncomfortable roller coaster ever since. I wish I had never bothered.
The pilot shortage was delicious then. Will it be that way again? Well, I dunno.
Then, you could reasonably sit in the right hand seat of any old turbo prop. If you were rubbish the crusty old git next to you could cope. These days it is different. Most newbies have to start on a jet and the entry standards are much, much higher and more expensive to boot.
The supply is different. Jag mates excepted there is not the exodus from the military. Also, it is much easier to get a job in Blighty if you are not a British National. Air UK excepted, you were generally British those days.
The bottom line for an entry pilot is higher, the airlines have to plan a little bit further ahead and the supply is more diverse.
It is harder to predict, but I don't think we will see an acute shortage again.
Just my twopence worth.
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Lies, damned lies and statistics
I'm intrigued by WWW's figure of 2000 pilots looking for work! This would represent over 10% of all UK licence holders, which doesn't sound right to me.
I suspect that this figure is the from the same source that similar ones have come before, the CAA's statistics. However, you have to know how they compile them - you appear as "unemployed" if you a valid professional licence but are not listed on any company's AOC.
This means that the following categories count as "unemployed":
-All flying instructors (and they're not all chasing the airline dream)
-All private/corporate bizjet drivers
-Everyone working abroad
-All the ex-BA (and similar) guys who took retirement at 55, have hung up their gloves but their licence hasn't expired yet.
In the late 80's era that MOR refers to I was heavily involved in training, and prior to the "great shortage" airlines were telling everyone that there were about 1,000 pilots on the market so there was no prospect of any shortage. Unfortunately (for them), the above factors had been ignored, so that when they started looking for people, they found that the true figure was nearer 200 - or about enough crews for 10 aircraft.
I think that this could easily happen again, although there are also many factors which could prevent it. Fingers crossed
The thing that irritates me more than anything is that when pilots start moving around the same operators who were squeezing for all they were worth start complaining about the "lack of loyalty"!!
Anyway, good luck to all trying to get started.
I suspect that this figure is the from the same source that similar ones have come before, the CAA's statistics. However, you have to know how they compile them - you appear as "unemployed" if you a valid professional licence but are not listed on any company's AOC.
This means that the following categories count as "unemployed":
-All flying instructors (and they're not all chasing the airline dream)
-All private/corporate bizjet drivers
-Everyone working abroad
-All the ex-BA (and similar) guys who took retirement at 55, have hung up their gloves but their licence hasn't expired yet.
In the late 80's era that MOR refers to I was heavily involved in training, and prior to the "great shortage" airlines were telling everyone that there were about 1,000 pilots on the market so there was no prospect of any shortage. Unfortunately (for them), the above factors had been ignored, so that when they started looking for people, they found that the true figure was nearer 200 - or about enough crews for 10 aircraft.
I think that this could easily happen again, although there are also many factors which could prevent it. Fingers crossed
The thing that irritates me more than anything is that when pilots start moving around the same operators who were squeezing for all they were worth start complaining about the "lack of loyalty"!!
Anyway, good luck to all trying to get started.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Crystal balls have yet to be perfected and we live in a constantly evolving world. Comparing things with the past is not always the best method of guaging what will be coming down the turnpike, though handy for nostalgic purpouses, and possibly, what not to do. Having started in the profession in 66 and sampled the ups and downs in various parts of the world it's my contention that market forces will dictate salaries and numbers hired. These are constantly shifting and difficult to accurately predict. What is easier to detirmine is ones own hunger for a particular profession. If you want to do it badly enough then the persuit of that is sometimes reward enough in itself, and the salary sadly neccessary as it is in this world of ours, icing on the cake.
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What is easier to determine is ones own hunger for a particular profession
I sometimes liken piloting to stage or concert work. Some people will sell their soul for a bit part. Airlines understand this well and exploit the situation to the full.
Another issue is what a pilot does when the career does become too much. Damn hard to establish yourself in another occupation without an awful lot of sacrifice and hard work.
The airlines know this too.
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Atlanta Driver
Thanks for confirming that there areZero Brit Pilots working for any Icelandic Airline based in Iceland which was what I suspected. It looks like a one way street to me.
As I said before there will never ever be a shortage of Pilots in UK because Employers can call upon people from at least 31 countries to take up any vacancies ,the 25 EU countries + Iceland and Norway +EU Dual Passport holdres from say South Africe,Canada,Australia and New Zealand.
The recent advertisement From BA flag carrier for Type Rated B777 and B744 Pilots was clearly aimed at "foreigners" as there are no B777 Airlines in UK and I doubt if any B744 Pilots from Virgin would ever consider joining BA at the bottom of their senioroty list. Still that is the way we do things in UK these days. Employers are not prepared to pay and train Brits ,they would rather poach from elsewhere and save money. This is happening in many jobs these days.
Thanks for confirming that there areZero Brit Pilots working for any Icelandic Airline based in Iceland which was what I suspected. It looks like a one way street to me.
As I said before there will never ever be a shortage of Pilots in UK because Employers can call upon people from at least 31 countries to take up any vacancies ,the 25 EU countries + Iceland and Norway +EU Dual Passport holdres from say South Africe,Canada,Australia and New Zealand.
The recent advertisement From BA flag carrier for Type Rated B777 and B744 Pilots was clearly aimed at "foreigners" as there are no B777 Airlines in UK and I doubt if any B744 Pilots from Virgin would ever consider joining BA at the bottom of their senioroty list. Still that is the way we do things in UK these days. Employers are not prepared to pay and train Brits ,they would rather poach from elsewhere and save money. This is happening in many jobs these days.
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The Gypsy
Nice attitude TheGypsy.
If you had done your homework you would know that there are zero flight crew, be it Brits or others, based in Iceland for Air Atlanta there is no crew base there. However FRA, CDG, DXB, KUL, MAD all have brits.
Then we have to look at all those Orange coloured aircraft operating flights out of Amsterdam, Alicante, Athens, Barcelona, Basel, Berlin, Budabest, Copenhagen, Dortmund, Geneva, Krakow, Ljubljana, Madrid, Marseille, Milan, Naples, Nice, Palma, Paris, Prague, Rome, Toulouse and Venice to destinations other than UK flown by all those "foreigners" from that tiny island just off French coast.
Ain't that just wonderful?? So as far as I can see you brits have a lot more people flying in continental Europe than there are us "Foreigners" flying in UK. It is not a one way street.
If you had done your homework you would know that there are zero flight crew, be it Brits or others, based in Iceland for Air Atlanta there is no crew base there. However FRA, CDG, DXB, KUL, MAD all have brits.
Then we have to look at all those Orange coloured aircraft operating flights out of Amsterdam, Alicante, Athens, Barcelona, Basel, Berlin, Budabest, Copenhagen, Dortmund, Geneva, Krakow, Ljubljana, Madrid, Marseille, Milan, Naples, Nice, Palma, Paris, Prague, Rome, Toulouse and Venice to destinations other than UK flown by all those "foreigners" from that tiny island just off French coast.
Ain't that just wonderful?? So as far as I can see you brits have a lot more people flying in continental Europe than there are us "Foreigners" flying in UK. It is not a one way street.
Last edited by JJflyer; 25th Jul 2004 at 07:50.
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You cant complain if other countries are smart enough to look after their own citizens first. Its frustrating if you are on the wrong side of the fence (which I am) but totally understandable and not imho in any way xenophobic.
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The USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are not part of the EU. Nor did they send their citizens out to create an empire, and in the process sow their seed, which is exactly the reason that South Africans, Zimbabweans, Indians (all British passport or residence permit holders) are able to live and work in the UK. What's more, anyone believing that it is a requirement to be a citizen in order to work in the US, Canada, Oz or NZ, simply has not done their homework!
The notion that the recent BA ad was aimed directly at us "foreigners" is pathetic, paranoid and xenophobic!
Furthermore, having flown in numerous parts of the world over the span of a career, there is hardly a nation left that has no foreign pilots or who's own pilots don't fly elsewhere. The only suitable solution to it all (in my opinion) is to simply grow up, and accept it.
If you're an unemployed pilot, look for the real reason that you're out of work, and forget about this anti-foreigner naziism!
The notion that the recent BA ad was aimed directly at us "foreigners" is pathetic, paranoid and xenophobic!
Furthermore, having flown in numerous parts of the world over the span of a career, there is hardly a nation left that has no foreign pilots or who's own pilots don't fly elsewhere. The only suitable solution to it all (in my opinion) is to simply grow up, and accept it.
If you're an unemployed pilot, look for the real reason that you're out of work, and forget about this anti-foreigner naziism!
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This topic ask the question is it the end of cheap Pilots.?
For reasons that i have stated it is not the end in UK at least because there is an endless supply which removes the necessity of improving conditions.
126.9 Who was that advert for B777/B744 rated Pilots from BA aimed at if not foreigners?
I am not unemployed and as for throwing in the word " Naziism" then who is being pathetic 126.9?
For reasons that i have stated it is not the end in UK at least because there is an endless supply which removes the necessity of improving conditions.
126.9 Who was that advert for B777/B744 rated Pilots from BA aimed at if not foreigners?
I am not unemployed and as for throwing in the word " Naziism" then who is being pathetic 126.9?
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Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Emirates Airlines, KLM, Lufthansa, SAA, ANA, AAI, Atlas, etc. all employ British citizens that are current and typed on the mentioned aircraft. Simple powers of logical deduction tell me that perhaps BA are trying to entice some of these blokes "home." It is perfectly conceivable that some of these chaps may have gone to work elsewhere when BA was not recruiting, and may now love an opportunity to join them.
On this particular issue of "foreigners", anyone taking a deep breath, sitting back and giving it due thought, will come to a similar conclusion and that is: this particular sentiment has caused almost more problems worldwide than differences amongst religions has. It's not worth getting your t1tties in a tangle over and what's more, as pilots, shortly after take-off we all become foreigners!
On this particular issue of "foreigners", anyone taking a deep breath, sitting back and giving it due thought, will come to a similar conclusion and that is: this particular sentiment has caused almost more problems worldwide than differences amongst religions has. It's not worth getting your t1tties in a tangle over and what's more, as pilots, shortly after take-off we all become foreigners!
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No pilot shortage!
As this topic starter I have to mention that I never said there is a pilot shortage on course.
Beamer and others got my point:
"Tinstaafi is correct - the only shortage at the moment is for pilots of the right experience levels on major current aircraft types - Boeing, Airbus etc. There will never be a shortage of low-time dreamers with fresh Commercial licences and no more experience than endless hours on Cessnas and Pipers built in ideal weather conditions in Florida with the bare minimum twin time to get their ticket.
If you've got 3000 hours plus on 747/757/767/320/321/330/340 etc then options are available. A 737 rating, two eyes. two arms , two legs guarantees a job with low-cost carriers in Europe - Ryanair, Easyjet etc.
The 'shortage' has always been just around the corner - so has the flow of ex-military pilots who jump ahead of the kids who for some reason see airline flying as a great new career - sorry, that sounds cynical - just back from long night flight !!!!!!!!!"
Simply put!
And I would advise to be careful to leave your present job for any outfit that look nice now. Things may be improving sooner.
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Beamer and others got my point:
"Tinstaafi is correct - the only shortage at the moment is for pilots of the right experience levels on major current aircraft types - Boeing, Airbus etc. There will never be a shortage of low-time dreamers with fresh Commercial licences and no more experience than endless hours on Cessnas and Pipers built in ideal weather conditions in Florida with the bare minimum twin time to get their ticket.
If you've got 3000 hours plus on 747/757/767/320/321/330/340 etc then options are available. A 737 rating, two eyes. two arms , two legs guarantees a job with low-cost carriers in Europe - Ryanair, Easyjet etc.
The 'shortage' has always been just around the corner - so has the flow of ex-military pilots who jump ahead of the kids who for some reason see airline flying as a great new career - sorry, that sounds cynical - just back from long night flight !!!!!!!!!"
Simply put!
And I would advise to be careful to leave your present job for any outfit that look nice now. Things may be improving sooner.
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Wishful thinking topic? Yes, the forecast for expansion worldwide is on quite a big scale, but a large % of this is towards the LOW COST market! LOW COST isn't just a mere customer grabbing ad, but stands for a workforce who work maximum hours for the least possible. And even the more established carriers find themselves competing more in this ever expanding low cost air travel market.
I know some people on here find it impossible to accept that working in air travel has changed since the advent of low cost and that also the result is front line customer service staff (pilots, cabin crews etc) are part of an industry where extreme price wars dictate ultimate survival. While wages may not decrease in a direct sense, indirectly you will find flying staff have to work more hours and also get minimum rest between flights....before they have to transport the next load of masses back. Nowadays, airlines are not customer or employee focused, but target driven and as a result, like it or not, the staff are forced to make these targets happen to ensure they continue having a job.
Like I said, a wishful thinking topic!
I know some people on here find it impossible to accept that working in air travel has changed since the advent of low cost and that also the result is front line customer service staff (pilots, cabin crews etc) are part of an industry where extreme price wars dictate ultimate survival. While wages may not decrease in a direct sense, indirectly you will find flying staff have to work more hours and also get minimum rest between flights....before they have to transport the next load of masses back. Nowadays, airlines are not customer or employee focused, but target driven and as a result, like it or not, the staff are forced to make these targets happen to ensure they continue having a job.
Like I said, a wishful thinking topic!
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Not quite true what you say that experience plus a 737/Bus rating guarantees a job. I have over 10 000 hours, lots in shorthaul jet command and have always been considered a safe pair of hands. I paid for a 737 rating when it became evident that no one was prepared to type rate me. So far, nothing doing.
It's difficult to know exactly what easyJet and Ryanair are doing because of the lack of feedback in the online application process, but I suspect that there aren't as many jobs there as people seem to think.
Not quite true what you say that experience plus a 737/Bus rating guarantees a job. I have over 10 000 hours, lots in shorthaul jet command and have always been considered a safe pair of hands. I paid for a 737 rating when it became evident that no one was prepared to type rate me. So far, nothing doing.
It's difficult to know exactly what easyJet and Ryanair are doing because of the lack of feedback in the online application process, but I suspect that there aren't as many jobs there as people seem to think.
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Still missing the point...
Pirate,
My point is: if you have good thousands hours command on 737NG, 757, 767, 747...or on new Abuses included on your grand total of more than 10K, you'll have increasingly more options.
Do not leave a secure job for what seems to be a greener pasture now...do not rush.
Cheers and good luck
My point is: if you have good thousands hours command on 737NG, 757, 767, 747...or on new Abuses included on your grand total of more than 10K, you'll have increasingly more options.
Do not leave a secure job for what seems to be a greener pasture now...do not rush.
Cheers and good luck
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I have to agree with the sceptics, particularly with Gipsy. I don't wish to seem xenophobic (indeed, one of my parents and my wife are immigrants), but there is certainly a disparity between how willing the UK is to accept foreign crew, and how willing other nations are to accept Brits. Look at Iberia or AF; how many Brits there? And I can't agree more that it's time to stop Commonwealth people working here, after all, we wouldn't be allowed to sweep streets in Aus or NZ.
To my knowledge, easyJet are looking for 400 pilots this year. I suspect Ryanair need a similar number, though many of theirs will be contract pilots. Both would appear to have a preference for non-rated applicants, as these can be bonded, charged for their trg (run at considerable profit) and paid reduced salaries for their lesser experience. It also helps the demographics within the company, so not everyone is screaming for a promotion at once.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I just don't feel that optimistic about a soon to arrive improvement in our conditions.
To my knowledge, easyJet are looking for 400 pilots this year. I suspect Ryanair need a similar number, though many of theirs will be contract pilots. Both would appear to have a preference for non-rated applicants, as these can be bonded, charged for their trg (run at considerable profit) and paid reduced salaries for their lesser experience. It also helps the demographics within the company, so not everyone is screaming for a promotion at once.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I just don't feel that optimistic about a soon to arrive improvement in our conditions.