LHR Breathtest. Update: Captain jailed
Those of us who enjoy beer or wine with dinner the night before have very little in the way of information to ensure we will be safely within limits when the police breathalyzer is wielded.
Given the uncertainty and the low limit, I would very much appreciate an opportunity to calibrate my body against a police issue breathalyzer on a day I would not be flying so that I could positively know for certain how to conduct myself so that I would not be found in violation when about to fly.
Given the uncertainty and the low limit, I would very much appreciate an opportunity to calibrate my body against a police issue breathalyzer on a day I would not be flying so that I could positively know for certain how to conduct myself so that I would not be found in violation when about to fly.
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With all the formulae out there you'd think we could get this down to a science. But for me the biggest lesson (besides drinking in moderation) is to eat real meals if you are having a few. Having food in your stomach and digestive sysytem will aid in metabolizing the alcohol. Had the Captain done so he probably would not have tested so high. Those drinks were just sitting there in him and were not absorbed fast enough. A tragedy could have been averted with just a couple of meals.
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May the time pass quickly old mate and may you be out before you know it. If you are ever through Hong Kong let me and Mas know.
There will be an glass on the table for you at New Years in Dubai
There will be an glass on the table for you at New Years in Dubai
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This just in from the FAA.
Refuse a Drug Test and You Could Lose Your License
Concerned by its findings involving airline pilots, the FAA is proposing to amend airman medical standards so that a refusal to submit to a required drug or alcohol test carries the same penalty as failure of a testrevocation or disqualification from holding an airman medical certificate. The same penalty awaits a pilot with an alcohol test result of 0.04 or greater. Further, the FAA proposes to standardize the time period for reporting refusals and certain test results. The FAA said it reviewed its medical qualification regulations because we continue to be concerned about the number of commercial pilots misusing alcohol, resulting in their potential impairment during the performance of commercial flight duties. Between 1998 and 2003, seventy-one airline pilots were identified by federal alcohol testing programs as having a breath alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater, the agency said. Drug and alcohol testing is required for pilots operating under Part 135 or 121. Comments on the proposal are due March 14. For more information, call Sherry de Vries at the FAA at (202) 267-8693
Refuse a Drug Test and You Could Lose Your License
Concerned by its findings involving airline pilots, the FAA is proposing to amend airman medical standards so that a refusal to submit to a required drug or alcohol test carries the same penalty as failure of a testrevocation or disqualification from holding an airman medical certificate. The same penalty awaits a pilot with an alcohol test result of 0.04 or greater. Further, the FAA proposes to standardize the time period for reporting refusals and certain test results. The FAA said it reviewed its medical qualification regulations because we continue to be concerned about the number of commercial pilots misusing alcohol, resulting in their potential impairment during the performance of commercial flight duties. Between 1998 and 2003, seventy-one airline pilots were identified by federal alcohol testing programs as having a breath alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater, the agency said. Drug and alcohol testing is required for pilots operating under Part 135 or 121. Comments on the proposal are due March 14. For more information, call Sherry de Vries at the FAA at (202) 267-8693
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Astrodome; You have to be kidding surely?
Ratherbeflying; That is exactly my concern. Having bought myself an electronic breath analyser I would now like to gauge it's accuracy and therefore my suitability to operate within the rules.
Flying Lawyer; Thank you very much for your time. Your posts are very useful and informative and address some of the issues directly.
It seems to me that the figure selected is rather arbitrary. The wording includes impairment yet many studies have shown that between 0.02 and 0.04 reaction and performance is enhanced. Can anyone give reason to why the figure was selected so low. I understand that it is not zero because of the body's ability to synthesise alcohol itself but surely there must be more to the story.
Ratherbeflying; That is exactly my concern. Having bought myself an electronic breath analyser I would now like to gauge it's accuracy and therefore my suitability to operate within the rules.
Flying Lawyer; Thank you very much for your time. Your posts are very useful and informative and address some of the issues directly.
It seems to me that the figure selected is rather arbitrary. The wording includes impairment yet many studies have shown that between 0.02 and 0.04 reaction and performance is enhanced. Can anyone give reason to why the figure was selected so low. I understand that it is not zero because of the body's ability to synthesise alcohol itself but surely there must be more to the story.
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Are the breath analysers bog standard issue as per general public (driving) or is there a specific machine or calibrated version for the lower flying tolerances.?
Where can one be bought?
Flying Lawyer. As its possible to be over the low limits even with a responsible lifestyle , isnt there any help in the Human Rights act. Never mind "right to Life", what about the "right to A life". Thats not as silly as it may first sound i think.
Where can one be bought?
Flying Lawyer. As its possible to be over the low limits even with a responsible lifestyle , isnt there any help in the Human Rights act. Never mind "right to Life", what about the "right to A life". Thats not as silly as it may first sound i think.
Actually, the idea of getting tested on days when you won't be flying is a good one (or getting charts that show blood alcohol versus time after a certain number of drinks), as most people don't know what their alcohol level might be.
Aviat Space Environ Med. 1997 Jun;68(6):531-7.
Pilots' knowledge of the relationship between alcohol consumption and levels of blood alcohol concentration.
Widders R, Harris D.
Department of Applied Psychology, College of Aeronautics, Cranfield University, Bedfordshire, U.K.
The U.K. Civil Aviation Authority is currently proposing that a maximum BAC (Blood Alcohol Concentration) limit of just 0.02% should be imposed on United Kingdom pilots. In this survey of 477 pilots, it was found that a large proportion could not determine when their BAC was likely to fall below this level after drinking alcohol and could, therefore, potentially inadvertently infringe the proposed regulation. Another large proportion of pilots felt that they were safe to fly before their BAC had dropped below 0.02%, which may be indicative of a willingness to infringe the regulations. Estimates of when it was safe to fly also became more inaccurate as the amount drunk increased and varied with the type of alcoholic beverage consumed. It was also found that the conclusions drawn were heavily dependent upon the formula used to estimate BAC. This methodological problem identified has considerable implications for the study of alcohol consumption when flying.
Pilots' knowledge of the relationship between alcohol consumption and levels of blood alcohol concentration.
Widders R, Harris D.
Department of Applied Psychology, College of Aeronautics, Cranfield University, Bedfordshire, U.K.
The U.K. Civil Aviation Authority is currently proposing that a maximum BAC (Blood Alcohol Concentration) limit of just 0.02% should be imposed on United Kingdom pilots. In this survey of 477 pilots, it was found that a large proportion could not determine when their BAC was likely to fall below this level after drinking alcohol and could, therefore, potentially inadvertently infringe the proposed regulation. Another large proportion of pilots felt that they were safe to fly before their BAC had dropped below 0.02%, which may be indicative of a willingness to infringe the regulations. Estimates of when it was safe to fly also became more inaccurate as the amount drunk increased and varied with the type of alcoholic beverage consumed. It was also found that the conclusions drawn were heavily dependent upon the formula used to estimate BAC. This methodological problem identified has considerable implications for the study of alcohol consumption when flying.
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Ttree Ttrimmer
I'm not sure where you get the information about low levels of alcohol increase performance?
The BAC level is arbitary, and it is an offence to have more than that level in your blood. Whatever effect it does or does not have on you. There is a second offence which involves impariment by drink or drugs.
The same thing applies to drinking and driving, and that legislation is often missunderstood.
Astradome is absolutly correect, coffee will have NO effect on your BAC.
dicksynormous
Yes there are breath test machines that are calibrated to give an indication of your BAC. Originaly, they worked on a 'traffic light' system, which would change as per the levels to which they were set. Now, ones are used which either are calibrated for this act, or I believe some forces have a read out, which makes it usable for Road Traffic Act or this Offence.
What about passengers Human Rights?
As to the various formulas for 'working out' your BAC, forget it. They are based on avarage, and don't relate to the real world. In any case it can change for the same person from day to day.
I'm not sure where you get the information about low levels of alcohol increase performance?
The BAC level is arbitary, and it is an offence to have more than that level in your blood. Whatever effect it does or does not have on you. There is a second offence which involves impariment by drink or drugs.
The same thing applies to drinking and driving, and that legislation is often missunderstood.
Astradome is absolutly correect, coffee will have NO effect on your BAC.
dicksynormous
Yes there are breath test machines that are calibrated to give an indication of your BAC. Originaly, they worked on a 'traffic light' system, which would change as per the levels to which they were set. Now, ones are used which either are calibrated for this act, or I believe some forces have a read out, which makes it usable for Road Traffic Act or this Offence.
What about passengers Human Rights?
As to the various formulas for 'working out' your BAC, forget it. They are based on avarage, and don't relate to the real world. In any case it can change for the same person from day to day.
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BJCC,
didnt you mean Passengers Human? .....yeah right.
No drinkin (jail), no fightin( disclosure), guess that just leaves whorin. For now, but there probably working on that.
Guess things are here to stay until a perfectly normal,sober individual, not dressed like a pilot with no history of anything attacks and kills the passengers individualy with a set of tweezers and then wont take off in anger. When the new knee jerk laws come out to combat all that we should be back to normal.
I agree with zero tolerance but not with a system that enables anyone with a grudge/chip to accuse anyone they dislike. A false accusation will do alot of damage thru the tabloids even if you are innocent and i guess the accuser will be protected by the data protection act. Just like the scrote who took money from my account and got away with it because the bank didnt want to pursue. I couldnt get the mans details to pursue legal action because of HIS rights. Now superimpose a random bitter employee and a stroppy capt into that same equation, and you may be fighting for your reputation against an anonymous accuser overnight. Meanwhile the tabloids have already sentenced you.
Bit of a rant so i hope i made my point.
didnt you mean Passengers Human? .....yeah right.
No drinkin (jail), no fightin( disclosure), guess that just leaves whorin. For now, but there probably working on that.
Guess things are here to stay until a perfectly normal,sober individual, not dressed like a pilot with no history of anything attacks and kills the passengers individualy with a set of tweezers and then wont take off in anger. When the new knee jerk laws come out to combat all that we should be back to normal.
I agree with zero tolerance but not with a system that enables anyone with a grudge/chip to accuse anyone they dislike. A false accusation will do alot of damage thru the tabloids even if you are innocent and i guess the accuser will be protected by the data protection act. Just like the scrote who took money from my account and got away with it because the bank didnt want to pursue. I couldnt get the mans details to pursue legal action because of HIS rights. Now superimpose a random bitter employee and a stroppy capt into that same equation, and you may be fighting for your reputation against an anonymous accuser overnight. Meanwhile the tabloids have already sentenced you.
Bit of a rant so i hope i made my point.
Last edited by dicksynormous; 23rd Dec 2004 at 18:26.
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I feel sorry for the individual and even more so about the jail time. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Having said that, if his alcohol level was that high the morning after, this individual needs some serious help and not jail.
How many drinks would it take to get in that state? Obviously depends on weight, time, food intake etc. Having said that, it would still take a hell of a lot. The trouble with alcoholics is that they don't know when enough is enough and when having a "good buzz" isn't going to improve with more drinking. They are eternally after the ultimate high. I know that. I was one.
Until the individual realizes he has a problem and stops cold-turkey, his spiral will continue downward. Once you hit bottom, and this person has lost his job, lifestyle and freedom, hopefully this will be the wakeup call to work his way out of his personal demons.
Alcohol, just like drugs, can and does destroy lives despite the babes portrayed in the commercials. Believe it or not, they don't find guys more attractive after they guys have consumed 7 or 8 drinks.
Newarksmells.
How many drinks would it take to get in that state? Obviously depends on weight, time, food intake etc. Having said that, it would still take a hell of a lot. The trouble with alcoholics is that they don't know when enough is enough and when having a "good buzz" isn't going to improve with more drinking. They are eternally after the ultimate high. I know that. I was one.
Until the individual realizes he has a problem and stops cold-turkey, his spiral will continue downward. Once you hit bottom, and this person has lost his job, lifestyle and freedom, hopefully this will be the wakeup call to work his way out of his personal demons.
Alcohol, just like drugs, can and does destroy lives despite the babes portrayed in the commercials. Believe it or not, they don't find guys more attractive after they guys have consumed 7 or 8 drinks.
Newarksmells.
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dicksynormous
While you have made your point, it's a very narrow one. OK, so you don't agree with someone being able to report you to police for this offence. What makes this offence different in that respect from any other.
A fair number of dectected crimes in the UK comes from information given to police. It may be some of that information is motivated by someone with a grudge. A large proportion is given by people who's motivation is a sense of public duty. There is no distinction, and in this case while the implication has been (without any evidence) that reporting the captain was malice, in reality it was because that was what he was supposed to do. No blame or responsibility for the pilots downfall can be laid at his, or anyone elses door.
Yes, he could have dealt with it another way, ignoring the instructions of his employer, and that would probably have resulted in him being sacked. Would the sympathy shown the pilot have been shown to the guard for doing him a favour? No.
No one forced the pilot to have a drink. It may have been he made a mistake, but it was his mistake and no one elses. It is his responsibility to ensure he doesn't break the law, the same as with any offence.
You are not fighting against an 'anonymous accuser', you are fighting against evidence provided by yourself (in the form of a breath and blood test) for an offence you have committed yourself.
While you have made your point, it's a very narrow one. OK, so you don't agree with someone being able to report you to police for this offence. What makes this offence different in that respect from any other.
A fair number of dectected crimes in the UK comes from information given to police. It may be some of that information is motivated by someone with a grudge. A large proportion is given by people who's motivation is a sense of public duty. There is no distinction, and in this case while the implication has been (without any evidence) that reporting the captain was malice, in reality it was because that was what he was supposed to do. No blame or responsibility for the pilots downfall can be laid at his, or anyone elses door.
Yes, he could have dealt with it another way, ignoring the instructions of his employer, and that would probably have resulted in him being sacked. Would the sympathy shown the pilot have been shown to the guard for doing him a favour? No.
No one forced the pilot to have a drink. It may have been he made a mistake, but it was his mistake and no one elses. It is his responsibility to ensure he doesn't break the law, the same as with any offence.
You are not fighting against an 'anonymous accuser', you are fighting against evidence provided by yourself (in the form of a breath and blood test) for an offence you have committed yourself.
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bjcc,
I havent committed any offence , your grammar/use of tense suggests i have.
I was not refering to this case but there is a good chance a spurious report may happen. The average joe in the street being reported is not likely to be the target of a tabloid response of the scale a pilot being tested on an aircraft or led away for testing would be exposed to. With all the associated career or at least reputation damage . If that testing is negative ,the damage is done. Hung out to dry by the press and the hordes of people lining up for their 15 minutes.What redress is there then.
The anonymous accuser can mess up your life by instigating a report with malice, which is then acted on publicly.It wont matter if you hadnt drunk for ten years. Remeber all the "hero"pilots in the press who have done nothing more Than fly an aircraft on a pan status with no real drama. Well prepare yourself for a rash of "drunk pilots at controls" all of wich will probably be UNDER the limits but all OVER the front page. Human nature isnt black and white you see.
Cast off that blinker of a coppers phsyce,set yourself free . Think out of the box old boy, it'll help in the flying world.
Ps thats a wink which indicates tongue in cheek. Thought i better clear that up just in case you've got a traffic cop sense of humour.
Pps do you ever get the urge to combine the past with the present and stand on a box with big white arm bands on directing your traffic
I havent committed any offence , your grammar/use of tense suggests i have.
I was not refering to this case but there is a good chance a spurious report may happen. The average joe in the street being reported is not likely to be the target of a tabloid response of the scale a pilot being tested on an aircraft or led away for testing would be exposed to. With all the associated career or at least reputation damage . If that testing is negative ,the damage is done. Hung out to dry by the press and the hordes of people lining up for their 15 minutes.What redress is there then.
The anonymous accuser can mess up your life by instigating a report with malice, which is then acted on publicly.It wont matter if you hadnt drunk for ten years. Remeber all the "hero"pilots in the press who have done nothing more Than fly an aircraft on a pan status with no real drama. Well prepare yourself for a rash of "drunk pilots at controls" all of wich will probably be UNDER the limits but all OVER the front page. Human nature isnt black and white you see.
Cast off that blinker of a coppers phsyce,set yourself free . Think out of the box old boy, it'll help in the flying world.
Ps thats a wink which indicates tongue in cheek. Thought i better clear that up just in case you've got a traffic cop sense of humour.Pps do you ever get the urge to combine the past with the present and stand on a box with big white arm bands on directing your traffic
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BJCC; I believe I read about the report in a BALPA newsletter about the time the law was changed. ELAC also refers to a study carried out by FAA/NASA in an earlier post on this thread. I do stand corrected on the fact that it would seem that 2 offences may have been committed here but I was under the impression that the BAC limit was used as an indication of impairment.
My point on this situation is that we need to know where we stand in relation to the law. I am not saying that we should be able to break the law but want to be able to prevent a similar situation happening to myself or my colleagues. If you could move on with the thread, maybe would could learn something other than your opinion on this case. Reading and understanding peoples posts before making damning comments may help.
The comment to Astrodome was about the differentiation between food and alcohol. They both use the digestive system and both will be absorbed into the bloodstream. The body does deal with them in a slightly different way but the end result is that both end up in the bloodstream. Not only eating but the type of food eaten can help in the processing and absorbtion of alcohol. There have been several studies that have shown this.
My point on this situation is that we need to know where we stand in relation to the law. I am not saying that we should be able to break the law but want to be able to prevent a similar situation happening to myself or my colleagues. If you could move on with the thread, maybe would could learn something other than your opinion on this case. Reading and understanding peoples posts before making damning comments may help.
The comment to Astrodome was about the differentiation between food and alcohol. They both use the digestive system and both will be absorbed into the bloodstream. The body does deal with them in a slightly different way but the end result is that both end up in the bloodstream. Not only eating but the type of food eaten can help in the processing and absorbtion of alcohol. There have been several studies that have shown this.
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dicksynormous
As I have said before, if a test is carried out on the flight deck, with the door shut, then no one need know, unless the crew go to the media. As regards to someone who has not had a drink in 10 years, that is not going to lead to him being dragged off. He will pass a screening test. As you know the media is not going trumpet the headline 'Pilot Passes Breath Test'.
If someones arrested, then yes they will report it, the same as they report police officers for the same, even if they are aquitted. But thats something that goes with the job.
If the test is passed, or the accused is aquitted, then there can be no detriment to his job.
Any old Joe can report a person for any offence ranging from , importing drugs, taking too many duty free's into a country. And of course if it is a Joess then rape. This offence is no different to that, and no different to Mr avarge in the street.
However in the case of an offence under this act (and the RTA) the evidence is not that of 'Joe', it is of the Police Officer and the defendent (in the form of the breath and blood test). The evidence to a great extent is proved by the arrested person themselves.
I am aware that icon is humour...but thank you anyway. NEVER was I a traffic officer, my parents were married!
Ttree Ttrimmer
He didn't commit 2 offences, just one. But there are 2 offences in the Act. The one this pilot fell foul of and a second, which there must be evidence of impairment.
Both offences can be committed at the same time, but there would only be a charge of one or the other.
If you read the link FL pointed everyone too, then you will note that I also have tried to help you and your collegues to not commit these offences.
As to food, my understanding is that it will slow down the absorbtion of alcohol, which can make matters worse in someways, meaning your BAC can be higher further along the time line than it would have been.
What does not help you and your collegues is that there is no reliable way of knowing what your BAC is after you finish drinking and say 12 hours later. There are 2 logical answers to me. First is buy your own screening device, and if you are in doubt, test yourself twice with an hour gap between the 2 (the second test to ensure you going down).
The alternative would rely on airlines providing the equiptment for you to descretly test before doing anything relating to aviation.
As I have said before, if a test is carried out on the flight deck, with the door shut, then no one need know, unless the crew go to the media. As regards to someone who has not had a drink in 10 years, that is not going to lead to him being dragged off. He will pass a screening test. As you know the media is not going trumpet the headline 'Pilot Passes Breath Test'.
If someones arrested, then yes they will report it, the same as they report police officers for the same, even if they are aquitted. But thats something that goes with the job.
If the test is passed, or the accused is aquitted, then there can be no detriment to his job.
Any old Joe can report a person for any offence ranging from , importing drugs, taking too many duty free's into a country. And of course if it is a Joess then rape. This offence is no different to that, and no different to Mr avarge in the street.
However in the case of an offence under this act (and the RTA) the evidence is not that of 'Joe', it is of the Police Officer and the defendent (in the form of the breath and blood test). The evidence to a great extent is proved by the arrested person themselves.
I am aware that icon is humour...but thank you anyway. NEVER was I a traffic officer, my parents were married!
Ttree Ttrimmer
He didn't commit 2 offences, just one. But there are 2 offences in the Act. The one this pilot fell foul of and a second, which there must be evidence of impairment.
Both offences can be committed at the same time, but there would only be a charge of one or the other.
If you read the link FL pointed everyone too, then you will note that I also have tried to help you and your collegues to not commit these offences.
As to food, my understanding is that it will slow down the absorbtion of alcohol, which can make matters worse in someways, meaning your BAC can be higher further along the time line than it would have been.
What does not help you and your collegues is that there is no reliable way of knowing what your BAC is after you finish drinking and say 12 hours later. There are 2 logical answers to me. First is buy your own screening device, and if you are in doubt, test yourself twice with an hour gap between the 2 (the second test to ensure you going down).
The alternative would rely on airlines providing the equiptment for you to descretly test before doing anything relating to aviation.
And when you had a decent lifestyle with reasonable night stops.
And when you weren't treated like a criminal at an airport.
And when the flight deck door wasn't locked.
And when the crew looked after eachother.
And when the Captain's word was law.
Just a few of the many reasons I decided not to apply to the airlines when I left the military....
And when you weren't treated like a criminal at an airport.
And when the flight deck door wasn't locked.
And when the crew looked after eachother.
And when the Captain's word was law.
Just a few of the many reasons I decided not to apply to the airlines when I left the military....
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The tradition of drinking
When I joined the RAF about 42 years back, the 2nd world war was still very much in peoplesīmemories. That was a time when night after night, young newly trained men were being sent into deadly dangerous situations. They drank a lot - probably quite a few became alcoholics if the truth be known - to drown their fears and to live a convivial life between raids.
This tradition of drinking a lot was still in place when I joined - indeed, anyone not "liking his pint" was looked upon as somehow unmanly or strange.
So what happened to me? Firstly I learned to drink beer - then I learned to like drinking beer. The bar was the social centre of service life and pretty soon the idea of having fun without alcohol became unthinkable. There was, at the time an 8 hour rule - though I must say I sometimes used 100% oxygen to clear my head after a late night in the bar. The penny gradually dropped, that drinking and flying aeroplanes were not the best bedfellows.
When I joined an airline - 34 years ago, the pilots were largely ex military and drinking on night stops was standard - although there was usually a dinner involved. Again, anybody not drinking at dinner would be thought of as a bit of an outsider.
As I progressed through the ranks and posts, the general level of drinking in crews dropped. New young sporting copilots and cabin crews came along, who didnīt drink much - or didnīt drink at all.
Finally I was in an airline with a 24 hour rule. Once I got used to it, I was glad of the rule. I found one could have a good evening out without having to consume alcohol. I found that I could get up better in the morning - and I found my perfomance - especially on a long day - improved. The applicable phrase here is "once I got used to it". It wasnīt too easy.
The way things are going, I think we all need a shake up and a break with this dubious "tradition" of drinking. Rules wonīt do it. Responsible behaviour and thought will.
This tradition of drinking a lot was still in place when I joined - indeed, anyone not "liking his pint" was looked upon as somehow unmanly or strange.
So what happened to me? Firstly I learned to drink beer - then I learned to like drinking beer. The bar was the social centre of service life and pretty soon the idea of having fun without alcohol became unthinkable. There was, at the time an 8 hour rule - though I must say I sometimes used 100% oxygen to clear my head after a late night in the bar. The penny gradually dropped, that drinking and flying aeroplanes were not the best bedfellows.
When I joined an airline - 34 years ago, the pilots were largely ex military and drinking on night stops was standard - although there was usually a dinner involved. Again, anybody not drinking at dinner would be thought of as a bit of an outsider.
As I progressed through the ranks and posts, the general level of drinking in crews dropped. New young sporting copilots and cabin crews came along, who didnīt drink much - or didnīt drink at all.
Finally I was in an airline with a 24 hour rule. Once I got used to it, I was glad of the rule. I found one could have a good evening out without having to consume alcohol. I found that I could get up better in the morning - and I found my perfomance - especially on a long day - improved. The applicable phrase here is "once I got used to it". It wasnīt too easy.
The way things are going, I think we all need a shake up and a break with this dubious "tradition" of drinking. Rules wonīt do it. Responsible behaviour and thought will.