Recruitment woes at BA.

[Carnage Matey!]

In the thousands? You really must stop attending those management briefings. As of about a month ago the total number of aplication form downloads was only around 400, and that figure came from somebody in recruitment. Are you seriously suggesting that in the subsequent four weeks there was a sudden leap in interest, with thousands more downloading the form and hundreds of suitably type-rated applicants applying en-masse? Seems somewhat unlikely to my cynical mind.

[Shaman]

A mate who is a BA Balpa rep said that 420 Midland pilots and 150 Virgin pilots had asked for an application form. He expected that some of them were outside BA's age and experience requirements though.

[fadec_primary_channel]

shaman

The only way 420 bmi pilots could have applied is if several of them applied twice! Don't you know we are shrinking?

As for 150 VS pilots I can't believe that, its probably the 50 or so that are bmi pilots but waiting to be VS pilots !!!

[justinzider]

Mate of mine who has been in the pool since Sept 11th failed the interview 5 weeks ago. He was called up by BA last week, they said that he hadn't failed after all, and that he had done "very well". They are now offering him a Sim Check.

What a shambles!! This shows how well recruitment is really going. Desired numbers have not been reached therefore "standards lowered".

My advice was not to accept if offered the job. I am 36 and joined 3 years ago, prospects here are not good for someone of my age, you need to join before 30 in order to get close to enjoying the lifestyle and career progression that come with Seniority.

I would have been better going for Virgin or staying with my last employer!!

BA's new DC Pension is a joke, their contributions are 12% of PENSIONABLE PAY not BASIC SALARY. Pensionable is about 15K LESS than basic! Compare to Virgin's 15% contribution on both basic salary AND flight pay. No brainer!!

What I remember from the 1-11 Sim was that it was tricky getting a scan going (coming from EFIS 737), but what they were after was decision making, management of medical emergency and subsequent diversion, plus "catching" low QNH altimetry and tail wind low track mile gotcha's. The assessment is an overall thing to see how you will cope with future conversions.

I got a "G" induced stall warning in the hold and still passed!

[Human Factor]

The 12% of pensionable pay equates to about 9% of basic pay. My understanding is that Virgin pays about 15% of basic.

[Nutty Nigel]

HF
I bow to your knowledge but i thought the abatement thing was a NAPs only rip-off,why would pensionable pay not be the basic therefore?

[Human Factor]

Good point. It would appear at this stage though that the 12% contribution for DC applies to the current "Pensionable", giving the 9% approx of basic. I think negotiations are likely to be on going. However, the NAPS "Pensionable" at the top end of the scale is close to Robber Brown's pension cap so if pensionable pay was increased, it would probably become illegal. I'm no way expert enough to how this would effect the new DC scheme, although I'm willing to bet a DC pension would be no where near the pension cap. However, there would probably be murders if the DC scheme was based on a higher rate of pay than NAPS.

Unfortunately, it's a very complicated issue with no easy answers.

[NigelOnDraft]

NN / HF...

Prior to the last BA Pay Deal, Pensionable did equal Basic. There was then this "abatement" discount ~£4.5K.

With the Pay Deal, a separate Pensionable scale was introduced. It was lower than the SH payscale, and common to LH/MH/SH to:
1. Mean all were on a common scale
2. Avoid the Pension CAP limit for Max contributions
3. Allow for the fact that the new Pay Scales included previously non-pensionable elements.

In NAPS now, you still apply the Abatement to the Pensionable scale. With the proposed MPS scheme you do not...

Hope that helps...

NoD

[Human Factor]

Fair cop. IMHO, the new joiners deal still remains decidedly second rate compared to the existing one.

[Ignition Override]

The pilots "over here" who have the most trouble with a 60s technology simulator are those who came straight from the A-320 (how about 757 or 744?), and this came from an Instructor Pilot when I upgraded.

A British pilot told me off-the-record that airlines in the UK have little interest in actual piloting skills, or words to that effect. 'He' seemed to imply that using automation was much more desireable.

[skery1a]

Hi all
the reason why they withdrew the dep. pilots add from website
could also be,that BA is in talks with BACX and uses suitable
canditates from within BACX pilots community.

Talks have been going on for month as far as i am aware.

Would make sense as BA would have full access to previous
track(training)records and some of the pilots,RJ fleet,already
operate to BA SOP and know how to operate the BA WAY.

Maybe there is somebody out there who knows more about
this as i do!
If you do,please let us know.

regards

[Airbus Girl]

I heard rumour that BA were planning to take on people from BACX. The ad was withdrawn because that campaign already had a "closing date" of 30 June.

I think BA should take a dozen of their 3 year ex-Cadet Airbus pilots and put them in the BAC 1-11 with very little pre-warning and see if they would pass a BA assessment in it.

Would be a very interesting experiment I think.

[TopBunk]

Airbus

The issue is not from where they come, or their skills, but the contract on which they are employed and more specifically the pension terms and conditions. Without agreement between the BACC and BA there will be new contracts offered by BA without the real prospect of strike action.

[Justbelowcap]

(You've not flown with a BA cadet have you Airbus girl? These are some of the most stunningly gifted pilots that I have flown with and it is very humbling to watch somebody with such a low flight time operate an aircraft to such a high standard. What is more staggering is that they manage to do this without having the benefit of seeing how other FO operate, flying 3 crew on the Trident was the only way I realised how hard I was going to have to work to just be average. Trust me if you were going to put any BA pilot in the sim the ones you would choose would be the cadets, then our fast jet colleagues who also seem to be unheathly good followed by DEP's then right at the back us old duffers who get a bit upset if the angle of bank exceeds 25 degrees and we are not given hdgs to to intercept an ILS.)

New joiners to BA be aware.

1. You are not going to get a SH command for 12 years plus whatever the 2006 change brings...probably looking at 17 years

2. Unless in your twenties you are NEVER going to get a LH command. Already over a thousand pilots under 30 in the airline and you need to be in the top 1000 to achieve a LH command.

3. Bidline is great if you are in the top 2/3's of a fleet. At the bottom it is not so great. You will work every weekend and have no control over your roster. However once published it is set in stone.

4. This seems to be ignored by a lot of posters but is perhaps the most important part of the BA system. Fot the first five years BA can do anything they like with you fleet wise. The last lot of DEP's who joined all had 747/777 fleets written into their joining contracts, however on day one they were told this had changed and they were now all to go to the 'bus. Some were MIGHTY hacked off with this, especially those who wanted to commute, but could nothing about it. It is not unusual for pilots to complete the ground school and sim course to be tyold that the plan has changed and the fleet they are going to no longer wants them. Back to back type conversions is not fun...but it can and does happen. So whatever fleet you think you might be joining BEWARE. ( The reason BA wants type rated people is NOT soley because of reduced training costs, the difference in training is bugger all, but to ensure that pilots are not just joining for a cheap type rating. A few years ago we got stung by some chaps who got 777 ratings and then went off to fly for Emirates). Remember you join the company not a certain fleet. Whatever is written in your joining contract could be changed on day 1

5. The pension is an insult. You will be retiring on a lot less than the current CSD's. Hopefully BALPA will stand firm on this and ensure a final salary pension but at the moment the leadership, whilst hard working and well meaning, are not giving a strong enough lead for this to happen.

[Well thats Me]

JBC
So what you are really saying is the current BA pilots have things so cosy its a raw deal for any DEPs,maybe BA should do something that any other rational industry would allow,you would view it as rash and all be throwing your toys out of the pram.
............. Experience is everything in the flying Club correct?
............. so why not ask for direct entry CAPTAINS !!!


They could even get Mr Oleary in to administer it.

** Shields Up captain **

[easyprison]

I heard a rumour that people have;

a) turned BA jobs down
b) not turning up to interviews
c) walking out of interviews

Any truth in this?

[Human Factor]

Ok, WTM, you've got a bite!

The problem with Direct Entry Captains into BA is that there are enough qualified people there at the moment waiting for the "Dead Man's Shoes". Not saying this isn't the case anywhere else though.

We took some direct entry captains a few years ago with the take over of CityFlyer. As the CityFlyer aircraft were dispersed elsewhere, a deal was done to ensure that the CityFlyer captains kept their commands, even though they were bottom of the seniority list, with certain restrictions. One of which was if they left LGW shorthaul, they lost their commands, as they were about 1500 places short of holding a command at LHR.

If we were to recruit direct entry captains, a similar deal would have to be done no doubt, and these people would almost certainly have to go to the 'unpopular fleet' at LGW as the popular vacancies (basically anything at LHR) could be covered by suitably qualified current employees. Therefore there would be unlikely to be any movement off the 'unpopular fleets'.

Keep in mind that any DE Captain would have to be paid the market rate for the job (otherwise he or she wouldn't come) so it's actually to BA's benefit to recruit to the bottom of the pile and promote from within. Think about it, an experienced BA co-pilot who has many years of operations under his belt is well paid as a co-pilot. By promoting him, the wage bill to pay him as a captain and then recruit a new junior FO to replace him is likely to be less than to keep paying him a high FO's salary and some new guy as a Captain on broadly the same pay. Also, this would result in a lot of experienced people jumping ship as they were 'passed over' which would cause the overall experience level to decrease on the flight deck and insurance premiums to increase.

I'm sure if BA thought it was in their interests to advertise for DE Captains, they would have done already.

Just my opinion though.

[Well thats Me]

HF
I actually like fishing and i wondered how long it would take to get a nibble.

On a serious note the only point i was making ( not that theres a easy answer ) is the T + C at BA are actually very good ( in brackets good ) its the negotiated scheme that yourselves have with BA via BALPA that make it seem less atractive,for instance if BA were to take on any engineers ( extremely unlikely ) a new starter would be on exactly the same as me after 2 years.its the waiting for command and the 24 incruments plus bidline that makes it look poor to a new starter,as i said initially ( the bit about captains was just bait ) the current employees have conditioned a LIFO scheme for all areas of the T + C which makes it appear not very good.

[Human Factor]

Unfortunately/fortunately, LIFO is a fact of life with many companies. The trouble with any seniority based company is just that.

However, pilots for any big airline (BA sized) are in a seniority based industry. We can't just up-sticks and move to an equivalent position at another company. For example, my next career move would be to become a shorthaul captain. If I left BA to join Air France (for example, assuming I could speak French well enough), I would have to start at the bottom of the pile again, on Pay Point Une and probably as a shorthaul co-pilot. Sure, I could become a Captain in time, but I would put myself seven or eight years behind my current position. If I worked in the City, for example, a sideways/upwards move is the norm between equivalent companies. I think ground engineering works this way too (although not necessarily at BA perhaps?).

The reason we have twenty four pay increments for each rank is recognition of the fact that we can't make sideways/upwards moves with other companies. In a way, it's a loyalty bonus. I'm not saying the system we have is right or wrong. However, it is the system I was recruited with so it will have to do. As things stand, I would be mightily peed off if someone was recruited to BA tomorrow to take a command which I have been waiting for loyally for x years.

Without a seniority system (this is world-wide, not just BA), if I felt I could make a good career move by going to AF, say, I could go there as a shorthaul captain on the best deal for me and perhaps re-join BA in a few years as a longhaul captain if the deal suited me.

The only way to do this is to remove seniority lists from airlines worldwide which will never happen. Just to emphasise that I'm talking about companies of a similar size to BA (AF, LH, AA, etc), not lo-costs or regional operators.

So that is the reason why we keep LIFO and a seniority list at BA.

[Justbelowcap]

WTM. I don't understand your point about direct entry Captains? We have a massive surplus of guys that are qualified to fly LHS, some with 12 years plus experience. It ain't Captains we need. That's the problem for new entrants, they aren't going to be needed as Captains for a VERY long time. It's only fair that those who apply know the facts. However the main point that seems to constantly missed is that whatever the airline promises it can all change on day one. There were plenty of 777 qualified guys who suddenly found themselves on the 'bus a few years ago despite having a contract that specified 777/747. This is all common knowledge within BA but may not be outside the airline. Only last month 6 guys who had just completed their 747 ratings were told the plan had changed and they were to go back to the 777(which is the fleet with the lowest morale in the airline) and that they would have to re-do their conversion next year. That's no laughing matter.......