Recruitment woes at BA.
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Reckon the last couple of posts just about wrap this up then!! I was verbally told that had passed but that no contracts would be sent out in the near future due to finalising the T's and C's - ie the BACC are still in dispute over the pension. When i replied that they needn't bother the personnel lady was totally shocked. Anyway i have had my day in court so no more from me on this thread - Wasn't the weakest link but Goodbye!
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Nutty Nigel,
476 applicants for 120 jobs is still less than 4-1 ! I don't think most people here do think that it has been an overwhelming recruitment success judging by most of the posts on this thread.
There will be a lot of people like MaxOAB who are accepted and will decline and a lot of people who apply more out of curiousity than real desire to leave their current employer to join the reduced T & Cs at BA.
You're right, BA is not the airline it used to be but the terms and conditions did not deteriorate immediately upon privatisation. BAs best years were in the decade following privatisation. The advent of the LCCs has forced a strategic rethink. I have many friends at BA and most think the management has been extremely arrogant and complacent about how good BA is to work for. Perhaps the penny is finally beginning to drop with the lack of interest evidenced in this recruitment drive.
Regards Orion Man
476 applicants for 120 jobs is still less than 4-1 ! I don't think most people here do think that it has been an overwhelming recruitment success judging by most of the posts on this thread.
There will be a lot of people like MaxOAB who are accepted and will decline and a lot of people who apply more out of curiousity than real desire to leave their current employer to join the reduced T & Cs at BA.
You're right, BA is not the airline it used to be but the terms and conditions did not deteriorate immediately upon privatisation. BAs best years were in the decade following privatisation. The advent of the LCCs has forced a strategic rethink. I have many friends at BA and most think the management has been extremely arrogant and complacent about how good BA is to work for. Perhaps the penny is finally beginning to drop with the lack of interest evidenced in this recruitment drive.
Regards Orion Man
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Orion man
You have me wrong, BA managers are extremely arrogant but 120 suitable applicants would be viewed as a victory from their perspective.
Also 476 pilots is a good turn out for 120 jobs and that is the truth.Sorry to say it and i have been around but BA is still the number one in the UK if you want a steady job delivering the Goods.
IMHO 476 qualified applicants can no way be viewed as lack of interest!
You have me wrong, BA managers are extremely arrogant but 120 suitable applicants would be viewed as a victory from their perspective.
Also 476 pilots is a good turn out for 120 jobs and that is the truth.Sorry to say it and i have been around but BA is still the number one in the UK if you want a steady job delivering the Goods.
IMHO 476 qualified applicants can no way be viewed as lack of interest!
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476 applicants. Pass rate of 1 in 20 was quoted in an earlier posting. So that means that they'll have around 23 pilots who will come through the recruitment assessment process in one piece. 23 will eventually be offered jobs. If, say, 1 in 5 change their minds, then they might end up with around 19 pilots.
19 pilots for 127 jobs. That is just the vacancies this year. They will need some more for next year just to replace the retirees.
To recruit 108 pilots at the current pass rate they will need another 2,160 applicants.
The only way they could possibly get that many is by opening up the recruitment to non-type rated people. Are there really 2,160 frozen ATPL holders out there?
In the 2002-2003 year, there were 163 new CPL(A)s issued and 60 IRs issued. There were 1458 full ATPL(A)s issued, although presumably most of these will be current pilots who have now reached the various hours/ experience requirements for full ATPL issue.
So I think really BA will be looking at the 163 new CPL (presumably frozen ATPL) holders, although only 60 IRs so perhaps only 60 who are current. And the non type rated people flying other aircraft for other operators already. So that would be the turbo-prop/ regional jet operators (probably lots of keen pilots there, but quite a small market) and the low cost carriers whose pilots mainly have B737 type ratings.
I don't know how BA are going to get enough people through the door.
And does the BA assessment work? I personally know someone who struggles through every sim with BA and will not make it through a command course. There must be many others.
How come Virgin can recruit for the A340 and B747 with just an interview? Are all their pilots rubbish?
Perhaps BA should reconsider its assessment. If they like what they are doing then fine, but it seems like they are making a rod for their own backs.
19 pilots for 127 jobs. That is just the vacancies this year. They will need some more for next year just to replace the retirees.
To recruit 108 pilots at the current pass rate they will need another 2,160 applicants.
The only way they could possibly get that many is by opening up the recruitment to non-type rated people. Are there really 2,160 frozen ATPL holders out there?
In the 2002-2003 year, there were 163 new CPL(A)s issued and 60 IRs issued. There were 1458 full ATPL(A)s issued, although presumably most of these will be current pilots who have now reached the various hours/ experience requirements for full ATPL issue.
So I think really BA will be looking at the 163 new CPL (presumably frozen ATPL) holders, although only 60 IRs so perhaps only 60 who are current. And the non type rated people flying other aircraft for other operators already. So that would be the turbo-prop/ regional jet operators (probably lots of keen pilots there, but quite a small market) and the low cost carriers whose pilots mainly have B737 type ratings.
I don't know how BA are going to get enough people through the door.
And does the BA assessment work? I personally know someone who struggles through every sim with BA and will not make it through a command course. There must be many others.
How come Virgin can recruit for the A340 and B747 with just an interview? Are all their pilots rubbish?
Perhaps BA should reconsider its assessment. If they like what they are doing then fine, but it seems like they are making a rod for their own backs.
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I'm sorry, did I suggest that I actually wanted to join BA as a DEP?
No, I haven't applied and have no intention of doing so.
Some of my early commercial flying was in something slightly bigger than a Seneca. Nevertheless it was a manually flown aircraft with basic navigation aids flying during some very challenging weather and into some very challenging airfields. I may sound 'modest' but I have to say that my manual flying skills back then were second to none.
I have had the pleasure in recent years of flying with quite a few ex-rather senior BA pilots (Training Captains and Fleet Managers) who have all said that I would have easily fitted into BA and that the standard there during their time was not as high as the company that I presently worked for.
It seems to me that in most cases the only people that think BA is the only place to work are existing BA pilots who haven't known anything else!
No, I haven't applied and have no intention of doing so.
Some of my early commercial flying was in something slightly bigger than a Seneca. Nevertheless it was a manually flown aircraft with basic navigation aids flying during some very challenging weather and into some very challenging airfields. I may sound 'modest' but I have to say that my manual flying skills back then were second to none.
I have had the pleasure in recent years of flying with quite a few ex-rather senior BA pilots (Training Captains and Fleet Managers) who have all said that I would have easily fitted into BA and that the standard there during their time was not as high as the company that I presently worked for.
It seems to me that in most cases the only people that think BA is the only place to work are existing BA pilots who haven't known anything else!
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I agree with much of the post from Yeovil - a page back .. that's so accurate.
Airbus Girl said; "How come Virgin can recruit for the A340 and B747 with just an interview"
The same way they get away with paying cabin crew £1200 nett when BA pays £2100 nett. The company has an identity, a sense of fun. The pax are well looked after, the employees are proud of the airline. You could join Virgin knowing you will have fun whilst at work.
Young people; who want to do the job properly, have a laugh and make a living.
Airbus Girl said; "How come Virgin can recruit for the A340 and B747 with just an interview"
The same way they get away with paying cabin crew £1200 nett when BA pays £2100 nett. The company has an identity, a sense of fun. The pax are well looked after, the employees are proud of the airline. You could join Virgin knowing you will have fun whilst at work.
Young people; who want to do the job properly, have a laugh and make a living.
I Have Control
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The rumour is that BA's recruiters are not professionally-trained. Which makes one wonder how they can select good professionals from the not-so-good. They do not seem to be performing well thus far.
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Okay i said no more from me but a point worthy of note (i hope). My company receives about 200CV's a week for no jobs. I would bet that it's the same for most companies. 30% i am told are from type rated guys and gals. When vacancies arise the process is a half day with interview, group exercise and a briefing. Those that are successful then undergo a sim assessment from one of our trainers who looks at basic stuff. I think it is a fair and cost effective system. Why do BA need to put mature pilots through a system designed to see if 18 year olds have the capabilty to learn how to fly? I have been involved in the development of these tests over the years and they only indicate certain traits, they do not say that the individual is going to become chuck yeager! In fact most are designed around the military prospect - an excellent example is the recognition of wing span and deciding wether or not to fire the missile - how relevant is that to a commercial operation? Okay so the capacity test has some merit but after my 3 hour sim detail i underwent yet another micropat test this time with rudder pedals!! So the 1-11 assessment still isn't enough?
The hard truth is that without the final salary pension BA T's and C's are not that attractive unless you are quite young and/or work for a company that is looking a bit dodgy (sorry My Travel guys!) I was more envious of some of the BMI guys that were flying the 330 as well as the 320/321 - seems the perfect job to me.
400 odd suitable for 125 jobs i reckon is piss poor and i agree with other posts, in the past BA would have been overwhelmed with applications but not anymore. The world is a much different place and the legacy carriers need to wake up and smell the coffee!
Yeovil's post i reckon is spot on and worthy of a second read.
Goodbye!
The hard truth is that without the final salary pension BA T's and C's are not that attractive unless you are quite young and/or work for a company that is looking a bit dodgy (sorry My Travel guys!) I was more envious of some of the BMI guys that were flying the 330 as well as the 320/321 - seems the perfect job to me.
400 odd suitable for 125 jobs i reckon is piss poor and i agree with other posts, in the past BA would have been overwhelmed with applications but not anymore. The world is a much different place and the legacy carriers need to wake up and smell the coffee!
Yeovil's post i reckon is spot on and worthy of a second read.
Goodbye!
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This thread... and a number of others on the site (especially the one about BA Wanabees in the recruitment section) are real eye-openers if you're looking for a new employer.
I've done a bit of digging and spoken to a few recent BA employees (got some contacts through mates), and the universal message is a total thumbs-down.
No-way-join-BA if you have any sort of career at the moment.
The seniority system (for absolutely EVERYTHING) dumps all the rubbish at the door of anyone in the bottom quarter of any fleet... and stops you changing fleets too!
I thought that the talk of "no weekends off" and "20+ years to command" sounded like the usual rumour rubbish... but not so.
All the guys I've spoken to say exactly the same thing. Quite a few told me that they wished they'd never joined, and are looking to jump ship... Emirates, Virgin, Easy have all been mentioned.
These guys are all on the old (i.e. decent) pension... how much worse will it get under the new version?
Also, word on the streets is that the only reason that the current pilots are fighting the new pension proposal, is simply in order to protect their own scheme... they are worried that they could be transferred.
If BA offer the pilots something to "ringfence" the old scheme for current employees, my contacts tell me that BALPA will roll over on the new scheme proposals straight away... they don't really care about the Ts & Cs of new joiners (why would they?).
Also, the cost of living in the South East (or commuting) seems to erode any pay increase that people get from being in BA... and the fact that you'll do 900 hours (longhaul) or 800 (shorthaul) with 11 days off a month, makes the package look dreadful.
I wouldn't apply now, for sure.
I've done a bit of digging and spoken to a few recent BA employees (got some contacts through mates), and the universal message is a total thumbs-down.
No-way-join-BA if you have any sort of career at the moment.
The seniority system (for absolutely EVERYTHING) dumps all the rubbish at the door of anyone in the bottom quarter of any fleet... and stops you changing fleets too!
I thought that the talk of "no weekends off" and "20+ years to command" sounded like the usual rumour rubbish... but not so.
All the guys I've spoken to say exactly the same thing. Quite a few told me that they wished they'd never joined, and are looking to jump ship... Emirates, Virgin, Easy have all been mentioned.
These guys are all on the old (i.e. decent) pension... how much worse will it get under the new version?
Also, word on the streets is that the only reason that the current pilots are fighting the new pension proposal, is simply in order to protect their own scheme... they are worried that they could be transferred.
If BA offer the pilots something to "ringfence" the old scheme for current employees, my contacts tell me that BALPA will roll over on the new scheme proposals straight away... they don't really care about the Ts & Cs of new joiners (why would they?).
Also, the cost of living in the South East (or commuting) seems to erode any pay increase that people get from being in BA... and the fact that you'll do 900 hours (longhaul) or 800 (shorthaul) with 11 days off a month, makes the package look dreadful.
I wouldn't apply now, for sure.
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Also, word on the streets is that the only reason that the current pilots are fighting the new pension proposal, is simply in order to protect their own scheme... they are worried that they could be transferred.
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Surely if BA are recruiting pilots for the next 30 years or so they should be testing their aptitude for flying future aircraft. As technology replaces manual skills there are some people who reach a limit of "understanding and managing" rather than not having the hand eye thought coordination.
Ergo, the sim ride should be conducted on, either the space shuttle, or Microsoft Flight sim.
Ergo, the sim ride should be conducted on, either the space shuttle, or Microsoft Flight sim.
DIRECTOR
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So 476 applied?? This is not very good when you consider the whole of the 25 countries in the EU can apply plus all those in the "Colonies" with an EU passport.
In the "good" old days you had to be " British" to join BA now any Pierre ,Fritz or Ivan can apply. The price we pay for being in the EU and English being the language that most Pilots can get by with I guess.
Long Live UKIP!!
In the "good" old days you had to be " British" to join BA now any Pierre ,Fritz or Ivan can apply. The price we pay for being in the EU and English being the language that most Pilots can get by with I guess.
Long Live UKIP!!
Controversial, moi?
BA does have many faults but name me an airline that doesn't. The negative postings about length of time to command if joining BA now are true due to the simple fact that many young guys will be senior to you and and will remain so for the next 20 years or so until they retire. The same thing has happened before.
Despite the whingeing and moaning the company has many, many attributes. If thinking about it, do your homework, jump through the hoops and join if it appeals.
If the package becomes so poor against other airlines it will be interesting to actually see market forces at work!
As an aside I don't believe many people in their 20s and 30s even think about pensions. I took great interest around my 40th birthday.
Despite the whingeing and moaning the company has many, many attributes. If thinking about it, do your homework, jump through the hoops and join if it appeals.
If the package becomes so poor against other airlines it will be interesting to actually see market forces at work!
As an aside I don't believe many people in their 20s and 30s even think about pensions. I took great interest around my 40th birthday.
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M.Mouse
I think people in their 20s and 30s do think more about their pensions now with all the negative publicity and scandals surrounding them. If you don't start thinking about your pension until your 40s, you will never catch up. I am no pensions expert but a money purchase pension is considerably less favourable for an employee as a result of longer life expectancy reducing annuity rates and volatile stock markets.
I don't think people are BA bashing here but rather pointing out that this is a crap deal and the derisory numbers applying is a good indication of that.
I think people in their 20s and 30s do think more about their pensions now with all the negative publicity and scandals surrounding them. If you don't start thinking about your pension until your 40s, you will never catch up. I am no pensions expert but a money purchase pension is considerably less favourable for an employee as a result of longer life expectancy reducing annuity rates and volatile stock markets.
I don't think people are BA bashing here but rather pointing out that this is a crap deal and the derisory numbers applying is a good indication of that.
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Does the 476 include those who registered on the website to look at the entry form or those who completed it? I was one of the former, didn't apply and got an email and then a phone call to ask me to complete. Not a company spoilt for choice if you ask me!
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Well it was 476 after the initial selection and thats Pilots with the correct type,experience and within the age bracket,i dont know how many filled in an application form or registered an intrest but i suspect it was in the thousands.
Airbus Girl
I have to answer with dream on to your comment,i can just see the flight crew manager telling RE only 19 pilots were suitable,i think the answer would be something along the lines of " Offer the job to 108 least unsuitable ones then or find another job " .
I well remember the advanced and intricate selection criteria that was used by Lord King for the Dan-Air take-over,they went out of their way to screen the 1 in 20 Dan-Air guys and girls........................i think not,old Lordy have the 737s and the pilots with um as a done deal,a 1-11 sim never showed its head for a moment!
Airbus Girl
I have to answer with dream on to your comment,i can just see the flight crew manager telling RE only 19 pilots were suitable,i think the answer would be something along the lines of " Offer the job to 108 least unsuitable ones then or find another job " .
I well remember the advanced and intricate selection criteria that was used by Lord King for the Dan-Air take-over,they went out of their way to screen the 1 in 20 Dan-Air guys and girls........................i think not,old Lordy have the 737s and the pilots with um as a done deal,a 1-11 sim never showed its head for a moment!