Full emergency call out for minor incident at LHR!
niknak
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Just as we are specialists in our own particular fields, so are the emergency services.
Most airports have specific categories of emergency (based on aircraft passenger capacity - not POB), to enable the non airport emergency services to assess how many vehicles and personnel to send to a particular incident.
A hydraulic problem that was initially diagnosed as flaps, could develop into something far more serious, hence the emergency response by the airport authority and local emergency services.
Ask anyone from the police, ambulance or fire brigade, and they'll all tell you that they'd rather attend something that didn't happen than be called out and get to the scene too late to do their primary task.
Notos's sarcasm is unworthy of these pages.
Most airports have specific categories of emergency (based on aircraft passenger capacity - not POB), to enable the non airport emergency services to assess how many vehicles and personnel to send to a particular incident.
A hydraulic problem that was initially diagnosed as flaps, could develop into something far more serious, hence the emergency response by the airport authority and local emergency services.
Ask anyone from the police, ambulance or fire brigade, and they'll all tell you that they'd rather attend something that didn't happen than be called out and get to the scene too late to do their primary task.
Notos's sarcasm is unworthy of these pages.
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the last "full turn out" that I witnesssed was a USAF Galaxy turning back from a west bound Atlantic crossing (into SNN) with smoke on the flight deck
I have no doubt what-so-ever that everyone onboard the Galaxy was delighted to see a mass of "Red and whites" waiting for them to land (given the circumstances)
everyone went home happy with no damage done - even the Galaxy got away a couple of days later
I have no doubt what-so-ever that everyone onboard the Galaxy was delighted to see a mass of "Red and whites" waiting for them to land (given the circumstances)
everyone went home happy with no damage done - even the Galaxy got away a couple of days later
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Well let's review what we've had and leave aside the personal attacks- a minor problem upgraded to a major emergency by someone in the emergency services with evidently a good dramatic background behind him ('major crash imminent'?). Precisely what was that aeroplane doing coming into London over all those people if that was the case? Such preplanned emergencies should never happen into Heathrow.
I would say rather than try and vilify someone who points out the absurdity of what happened in the emergency services that day, people should start asking questions as to who was involved in the decision making process that evidently shouldn't have been there! Perhaps another drama involving one or more exclamation marks that we can lay to rest. (shame Air Mauritius cops the bad name though- it really did nothing. The emergency services came across as buffoons though, didn't they?)
I would say rather than try and vilify someone who points out the absurdity of what happened in the emergency services that day, people should start asking questions as to who was involved in the decision making process that evidently shouldn't have been there! Perhaps another drama involving one or more exclamation marks that we can lay to rest. (shame Air Mauritius cops the bad name though- it really did nothing. The emergency services came across as buffoons though, didn't they?)
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Ok I should like to start by saying that I really didn’t intend to cause any one any offence or to imply that Air Mauritus were in some way more likely to crash than anyone else. While I certainly did not mean to upset anyone, on reflection I can see that this would be a sensitive subject, and perhaps I should have been more guarded in the information I provided.
So once again please accept my apologies for any offence caused.
Now with that said perhaps it would be helpful if I elaborated on a couple of points.
Firstly my individual response time was indeed 18 minutes from Fulham, however please remember that I was responding in my capacity as a manager, and only one of a number of managers sent to the RVP to co-ordinate resources in the event of a major incident.
I am based in West sector which serves LHR however the sector stretches from Hillingdon to Fulham, and being based at Fulham, my own station is the furthest from LHR. As such I would not routinely respond to the airport.
Our response to any incident at LHR is determined by the category of incident as passed to us by STAR control. Suffice to say that the initial response will be provided by the local station and their corresponding management team, that being Hillingdon in this instance, and I can assure you that our initial responders were on scene within a couple of minutes.
I myself was only required to attend the RVP as part of the extended response once the incident had been upgraded.
I can see that as a Pilot you might see our response as exaggerated however there are a number of good operational reasons for this.
In this instance the decision to upgrade the incident from full emergency to Crash imminent was taken by the first ambulance officer on scene. Our standard Reponses to a full emergency would be 2 managers and four ambulances. With the declaration of a crash imminent a number of other resources are mobilized. These include a mobile control and command center, specialist communications vehicles, equipment support vehicles and of course more managers and crews are sent to the scene. In addition local hospitals would be placed on major incident standby at this point.
Clearly mobilisation of all these resources takes time and so while such a decision is not taken lightly we judge that it is wiser to gear up the response and then not to require it, than to find yourself having to call up these resources in the aftermath of an incident.
Ultimately the decision rests with the manager on scene. In this case he was informed that the plane was experiencing hydraulic failure, and expected a fast / heavy landing with no flaps. He judged that this allowed for the possibility of a ground incident on landing, and therefore took the decision to upgrade our response to crash imminent. I can assure you that this is not an easy decision and neither is it one that you have a great deal of time to consider.
All I would say is that as we stood at RVP North watching the AC land, I for one took great comfort from the fact that, we were at the moment of landing ready to deal with a significant incident should one have occurred.
So once again please accept my apologies for any offence caused.
Now with that said perhaps it would be helpful if I elaborated on a couple of points.
Firstly my individual response time was indeed 18 minutes from Fulham, however please remember that I was responding in my capacity as a manager, and only one of a number of managers sent to the RVP to co-ordinate resources in the event of a major incident.
I am based in West sector which serves LHR however the sector stretches from Hillingdon to Fulham, and being based at Fulham, my own station is the furthest from LHR. As such I would not routinely respond to the airport.
Our response to any incident at LHR is determined by the category of incident as passed to us by STAR control. Suffice to say that the initial response will be provided by the local station and their corresponding management team, that being Hillingdon in this instance, and I can assure you that our initial responders were on scene within a couple of minutes.
I myself was only required to attend the RVP as part of the extended response once the incident had been upgraded.
I can see that as a Pilot you might see our response as exaggerated however there are a number of good operational reasons for this.
In this instance the decision to upgrade the incident from full emergency to Crash imminent was taken by the first ambulance officer on scene. Our standard Reponses to a full emergency would be 2 managers and four ambulances. With the declaration of a crash imminent a number of other resources are mobilized. These include a mobile control and command center, specialist communications vehicles, equipment support vehicles and of course more managers and crews are sent to the scene. In addition local hospitals would be placed on major incident standby at this point.
Clearly mobilisation of all these resources takes time and so while such a decision is not taken lightly we judge that it is wiser to gear up the response and then not to require it, than to find yourself having to call up these resources in the aftermath of an incident.
Ultimately the decision rests with the manager on scene. In this case he was informed that the plane was experiencing hydraulic failure, and expected a fast / heavy landing with no flaps. He judged that this allowed for the possibility of a ground incident on landing, and therefore took the decision to upgrade our response to crash imminent. I can assure you that this is not an easy decision and neither is it one that you have a great deal of time to consider.
All I would say is that as we stood at RVP North watching the AC land, I for one took great comfort from the fact that, we were at the moment of landing ready to deal with a significant incident should one have occurred.
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I'm afraid you were wasting your time watching aeroplanes. Evidently someone completely out of his depth was given the control over the level of response. Anyone would applaud that so many ambulances and emergency services were standing by having a nice day out at the airport watching a minor technical problem being handled, but why do I read in the papers frequently that ambulances take forever to arrive on domestic emergency callouts - the obvious inference is that they are in short supply.
So, do you think it a correct response that an ambulance official who knows very little about aeroplanes can decide unilaterally to pre-occupy numerous London Ambulance vehicles to stand guard when they are actually needed to cover health issues for people wanting emergency callouts? Someone was way out of his depth here!
I'm afraid I still wince when I look at your title. A lot of people would look at it as I read it...'Crash Imminent!....maybe Air Maurixxxx'. Any apology due is to that unfortunate company (or its lawyers....if they will accept it).
So, do you think it a correct response that an ambulance official who knows very little about aeroplanes can decide unilaterally to pre-occupy numerous London Ambulance vehicles to stand guard when they are actually needed to cover health issues for people wanting emergency callouts? Someone was way out of his depth here!
I'm afraid I still wince when I look at your title. A lot of people would look at it as I read it...'Crash Imminent!....maybe Air Maurixxxx'. Any apology due is to that unfortunate company (or its lawyers....if they will accept it).
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As an after thought I'd just like to say this.
We provided a very professional response on this occasion as we do week in and week out to LHR.
Mercifully we not in fact required on most occasions but nevertheless we are there for you should the worst happen.
A such don't think it is particularly respectful to refer to the emergency services as buffoons.
If you read my initial post again you will see that the point was to recognise the skill of the flight crew, who from where I was standing, seemed to execute a flawless landing.
For my part I didn't intend to cause any offence and have apologised for any that I did inadvertently cause.
While clearly entitled to your view I find your comment offensive and deliberately so.
Next time I respond to the airport I shall remember that I am 'wasting my time'.
We provided a very professional response on this occasion as we do week in and week out to LHR.
Mercifully we not in fact required on most occasions but nevertheless we are there for you should the worst happen.
A such don't think it is particularly respectful to refer to the emergency services as buffoons.
If you read my initial post again you will see that the point was to recognise the skill of the flight crew, who from where I was standing, seemed to execute a flawless landing.
For my part I didn't intend to cause any offence and have apologised for any that I did inadvertently cause.
While clearly entitled to your view I find your comment offensive and deliberately so.
Next time I respond to the airport I shall remember that I am 'wasting my time'.
Last edited by Damo29; 20th Jun 2004 at 00:01.
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Damo, keep up the good work. I would rather have someone being overly cautious than not give a rats, furthermore nobody can ever predict the outcome of a relatively "normal" malfunction. It is idiots like Not So Fantastic, who not only give dud advice, but also unfortunately give the impression that this is everyones line of thought on the matter.
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You miss the point blueloo, but how nice to get a bit of anonymous personal abuse in! It may be pleasant to have 50 ambulances standing by watching while you handle a very nondescript mechanical problem, but it is a luxury we cannot afford. Those ambulances would have been better involved doing their run of the mill tasks rather than violently over responding to nothing. Somewhere in the ambulance service, a major decision making process is being handled by someone who does not know what they are doing.
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I still think you are missing the point NOTSO. All emergency services were at the airport on the understanding that there was a FULL emergency. Not just some inor mechanical problem . GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE GOING INTO ONE YOU REALLY QUITE NICE PERSON, ACTUALLY AND YES THIS IS AN EDIT....
Also if he didn't put the airline in the title, you would probably want to know which airline was involved. Get a life or stay away from the forum site
Also if he didn't put the airline in the title, you would probably want to know which airline was involved. Get a life or stay away from the forum site
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Do some people enjoy causing an argument???
I for one have the upmost respect for any member of the emergency services and belive that they do a wonderfull job.
As the old proverb goes :- "Its better to be safe than sorry". I think one person in this thread needs to abide by that saying a bit more.
I for one have the upmost respect for any member of the emergency services and belive that they do a wonderfull job.
As the old proverb goes :- "Its better to be safe than sorry". I think one person in this thread needs to abide by that saying a bit more.
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I'm afraid there were a lot of people at home desperately wondering where their ambulances were whilst the crews were happily watching aeroplanes at the airport! Jettesen seems to think it OK that they responded completely inappropriately to a false indication of a FULL emergency- it was a minor technical problem. Wonderful job they would have done, no doubt, but they were not needed there- they were needed elsewhere. It is that decision making process that went very wrong. Respect for the ambulance profession has nothing to do with it Speedbird Heavy- you seem to misunderstand what the discussion is actually about.
Moderators- are you happy about jettesen's posting?
Moderators- are you happy about jettesen's posting?
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Are you trying to say there should be a full emergency multi ambulance response to every incident? I wish we could afford it! So the result is to have better information flow and not allow people to arbitrarily declare full emergencies when they don't know what they are doing.
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I am 100% sure that all people involved are trying to do as good as possible decisions every time. Unfortunately, all technical details can't be known until the situation in hand is fully sorted out. Better safe than sorry, you must agree!
Nikolai
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Notso, imho you are quite correct.
The first ambulance manager at the scene was clearly not trained to make the right decision, though I don't doubt his professionalism and good intent. Perhaps a tower controller or other aviation professional, maybe even a dedicated individual with emergency response training would be better suited to the task.
However, the manner in which you are voicing your views is one that is bound to produce the inappropriate vitriolic responses found here! I just hope you use more diplomacy on the flightdeck...
The first ambulance manager at the scene was clearly not trained to make the right decision, though I don't doubt his professionalism and good intent. Perhaps a tower controller or other aviation professional, maybe even a dedicated individual with emergency response training would be better suited to the task.
However, the manner in which you are voicing your views is one that is bound to produce the inappropriate vitriolic responses found here! I just hope you use more diplomacy on the flightdeck...
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Well how people perceive what I am saying is their problem! I am trying to be as concise as possible to get the points across. If people want to indulge themselves with jettesen's abuse and expletives or direct personal attacks, then they are just showing they are perhaps too immature to properly discuss such matters in public. The whole discussion was turned around to 'what a wonderful job the emergency services and boys in blue do, and how dare anybody criticise them for anything.....ever!'
I am a taxpayer, and I don't like seeing my money wasted on such over responses. Especially when my relative had a heart attack and an ambulance wasn't fast in response! Lovely it is to have them standing by in hordes, but not when I am paying and it's not needed. Something needs repairing there.
With regard to jettesens 'get a life', whatever does he mean? I am about to fly a 747 to a tropical paradise for half a week, with wife in tow. Please tell me what I am doing wrong and how I can improve! I am really interested in what advice a 'LGW' nothing (apparently) has for me (not!). And thank you for the advice to stay away from the forum.....er....your qualifications to render such advice?
I am a taxpayer, and I don't like seeing my money wasted on such over responses. Especially when my relative had a heart attack and an ambulance wasn't fast in response! Lovely it is to have them standing by in hordes, but not when I am paying and it's not needed. Something needs repairing there.
With regard to jettesens 'get a life', whatever does he mean? I am about to fly a 747 to a tropical paradise for half a week, with wife in tow. Please tell me what I am doing wrong and how I can improve! I am really interested in what advice a 'LGW' nothing (apparently) has for me (not!). And thank you for the advice to stay away from the forum.....er....your qualifications to render such advice?
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It may improve a long way if you take a less aggressive attitude for this life. Some folks also leave a wife behind when going those destinations, it may also help.
Nikolai
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Airport emergency orders , a contract drawn up by the airport and associated services ie the emergency services, dictates levels of response.
What may seem an overkill in the event of a false reading in the cockpit would most probably be in the event of a real accident be insufficient.
Hindsight is such a wonderful tool, although the pilot may believe it is a false reading his SOPS most probably dictate the actions he took, in the same way ATC had to follow their procedures and the Emergency services follow theirs.
Criticism of these should be raised if you so wish with the Airport Operators, These orders will have been produced over a long period of times following numerous consultation's with all involved.
What may seem an overkill in the event of a false reading in the cockpit would most probably be in the event of a real accident be insufficient.
Hindsight is such a wonderful tool, although the pilot may believe it is a false reading his SOPS most probably dictate the actions he took, in the same way ATC had to follow their procedures and the Emergency services follow theirs.
Criticism of these should be raised if you so wish with the Airport Operators, These orders will have been produced over a long period of times following numerous consultation's with all involved.
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Notso,
I don't understand your problem with this, a full emergency was declared by ATC for an aircraft that had a problem, the fact that the aircraft returned to Heathrow is the decision of the commander of the aircraft and it is not for anyone elese to say to him / her that they cannot bring their aircraft to that particular airfield. I'm damn sure that if your 744 developed a hydraulic problem after departure which resulted in a return to heathrow for a faster than usual overweight landing then you would want the emergency services attending should the u/c collapse and you and all the punters down the back slide uncontrollably along 27R coming to rest and regaining consciousness just prior to the fire engulfing your a/c, thankfully the AFS get you out but you die waiting for an ambulance that would have been there had they responded appropriately but unfortunately someone put you in charge of making the decision as to the level of response and now you and several of your passengers who put their lives in your hands have died needlessly.
I've worked in the emergency services and now work as an ATCO and have dealt with countelss emergencies from both points of view and would rather they over react to an incident and be stood down prior to arrival, than not react appropriately and people die.
Other emergencies are not delayed, each incident is treated individually and if it is felt necessarry to break a unit away from attending the airport to deal with a serious RTA or cardiac arrets then I've no doubt the the Ambulance Service will do so. It's a matter of priorities.
I don't understand your problem with this, a full emergency was declared by ATC for an aircraft that had a problem, the fact that the aircraft returned to Heathrow is the decision of the commander of the aircraft and it is not for anyone elese to say to him / her that they cannot bring their aircraft to that particular airfield. I'm damn sure that if your 744 developed a hydraulic problem after departure which resulted in a return to heathrow for a faster than usual overweight landing then you would want the emergency services attending should the u/c collapse and you and all the punters down the back slide uncontrollably along 27R coming to rest and regaining consciousness just prior to the fire engulfing your a/c, thankfully the AFS get you out but you die waiting for an ambulance that would have been there had they responded appropriately but unfortunately someone put you in charge of making the decision as to the level of response and now you and several of your passengers who put their lives in your hands have died needlessly.
I've worked in the emergency services and now work as an ATCO and have dealt with countelss emergencies from both points of view and would rather they over react to an incident and be stood down prior to arrival, than not react appropriately and people die.
Other emergencies are not delayed, each incident is treated individually and if it is felt necessarry to break a unit away from attending the airport to deal with a serious RTA or cardiac arrets then I've no doubt the the Ambulance Service will do so. It's a matter of priorities.