Full emergency call out for minor incident at LHR!
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One hardly dares looking in here there seems to be so many instant experts (who resort to personal attacks and abuse as if that makes their position stronger. Well the view from my department is that it is lovely to have scores of ambulancemen and fire-engines lining the runway for every minor technical problem, but I don't think the people of London and the London Ambulance Service can afford this largesse (or the taxpayer)- so the response is often totally out of line with the original problem. There is definitely a detachment of reality amongst some of the posts here- as if ambulances should be standing by by every runway!
I won't repeat my points, they are concise and clear enough. I think most pilots have been rather fed up when handling a minor technical problem adequately and following procedures, to find a mass of flashing blue lights around them when not at all needed. It helps to elevate a minor technical problem to a significant 'emergency'- it's a luxury the taxpayer can't afford.
Air Mauritius are aware of the use of their name in this thread. What they want to do with it is up to them. It is a reminder that posters should beware that laws of slander apply equally in apparently anonymous forums as anywhere else. That veil of anonymity will not be half as concealing as some people think.
I won't repeat my points, they are concise and clear enough. I think most pilots have been rather fed up when handling a minor technical problem adequately and following procedures, to find a mass of flashing blue lights around them when not at all needed. It helps to elevate a minor technical problem to a significant 'emergency'- it's a luxury the taxpayer can't afford.
Air Mauritius are aware of the use of their name in this thread. What they want to do with it is up to them. It is a reminder that posters should beware that laws of slander apply equally in apparently anonymous forums as anywhere else. That veil of anonymity will not be half as concealing as some people think.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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As someone with 1st hand experience of attending ambulance calls I think Notso, et al are looking in the wrong places when blaming poor response time..
Get GP's to visit patients out of hours,
Re open all the closed A+E departments,
Encourage people to take responsibilty for their own health/welfare,
Discourage people from calling 999 for things which are clearly not an emergency - cut fingers/lift up stairs/etc,
Make ambulance trusts spend money appropriately on patient care instead of fancy PR stunts,
Charge the timewasters,
ETC, ETC.
Maybe then people won't be 'waiting around for ambulances' when we are apparently playing spotters waiting for the crash...
PW
Get GP's to visit patients out of hours,
Re open all the closed A+E departments,
Encourage people to take responsibilty for their own health/welfare,
Discourage people from calling 999 for things which are clearly not an emergency - cut fingers/lift up stairs/etc,
Make ambulance trusts spend money appropriately on patient care instead of fancy PR stunts,
Charge the timewasters,
ETC, ETC.
Maybe then people won't be 'waiting around for ambulances' when we are apparently playing spotters waiting for the crash...
PW
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"Notso ....." some way back in the thread I presented the suggestion that a PIC announcing an arrival or return to an airport, with a malfunctioning aircraft, should have the option of requesting the level of emergency services he requires
as an example ...... in the case of the 340 he might well have requested a minimum level of emergency services to be available or indeed none at all
in other more serious cases PIC might well request "maximum Levels" to be available
In your view, would this work ........
as an example ...... in the case of the 340 he might well have requested a minimum level of emergency services to be available or indeed none at all
in other more serious cases PIC might well request "maximum Levels" to be available
In your view, would this work ........
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This is the difficulty of discussing matters on a keyboard! Pilotwolf seems to have found criticism of response times for emergency services somewhere. I would rather the emergency services stayed in their lairs and responded to heart attack calls from the citizenry than gathered like a herd of mosquitoes for a jolly afternoon airplane spotting at a simple stuck flap scenario......but making that point has got me a lot of personal abuse as opposed to sensible discussion of the topic! Throwing in GPs hours does seem to be bowling a blinder.
Leaving emergency response decisions to other people nowadays inevitable leads to 'covering ones rear' on the hopeful principle that one can never have too much emergency vehicles on standby ('oh really?' says the tax payer!). Like the IT law that says you will never go wrong buying IBM. We've now reached the absurd situation that hopefully nobody will have their job compromised by calling out every blue light within 50 miles 'for anything'. Police close motorways for 10 hours. Police attend pointless calls at airports and won't come when your house is being broken into. It is out of hand now, with people protecting their asses in high profile incidents. Time I think for pilots to specify a sensible requirement for emergency cover in relation to their problem as hobie suggests. But uninformed amateur incident assessors should no longer have that decision!
Leaving emergency response decisions to other people nowadays inevitable leads to 'covering ones rear' on the hopeful principle that one can never have too much emergency vehicles on standby ('oh really?' says the tax payer!). Like the IT law that says you will never go wrong buying IBM. We've now reached the absurd situation that hopefully nobody will have their job compromised by calling out every blue light within 50 miles 'for anything'. Police close motorways for 10 hours. Police attend pointless calls at airports and won't come when your house is being broken into. It is out of hand now, with people protecting their asses in high profile incidents. Time I think for pilots to specify a sensible requirement for emergency cover in relation to their problem as hobie suggests. But uninformed amateur incident assessors should no longer have that decision!
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Not so fantastic
As I said in an earlier post, Kegworth was a full emergency. The plane crashed.. What response would you have had on standby for that? The trouble with emergency services staying in thier lairs is that when it all goes wrong they are all in the wrong place when you need them.
Another example I have used was Staines, where traffic prevented emergency services access. If emergency services are in their liars how are they going to get to the scene if it all goes wrong?
Are you really qualified to specify the resonse to an emergency? I doubt that very much.
I have never had a road closed for 10 hours for a full emergency (a bit silly that one!!!). As for attending pointless calls at an airport, the same rules apply to that as your house being broken into. If they are all busy doing something else and so the pot is empty, they wont go to an airport either. Also most calls to houses being broken into are just the occupier making a hash of getting in, and therefore pointless too.
The point you have missed is that emergency services respond to a specific level of emergency, which is decleared by others. They are not being amateur incident assessors, the level of incident has already been assessed by ATC I presume in conjuction with you.
As I said in an earlier post, Kegworth was a full emergency. The plane crashed.. What response would you have had on standby for that? The trouble with emergency services staying in thier lairs is that when it all goes wrong they are all in the wrong place when you need them.
Another example I have used was Staines, where traffic prevented emergency services access. If emergency services are in their liars how are they going to get to the scene if it all goes wrong?
Are you really qualified to specify the resonse to an emergency? I doubt that very much.
I have never had a road closed for 10 hours for a full emergency (a bit silly that one!!!). As for attending pointless calls at an airport, the same rules apply to that as your house being broken into. If they are all busy doing something else and so the pot is empty, they wont go to an airport either. Also most calls to houses being broken into are just the occupier making a hash of getting in, and therefore pointless too.
The point you have missed is that emergency services respond to a specific level of emergency, which is decleared by others. They are not being amateur incident assessors, the level of incident has already been assessed by ATC I presume in conjuction with you.
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quote .....
"Are you really qualified to specify the response to an emergency? I doubt that very much."
to be fair to my proposal ..... if the aircraft fault is such that the PIC can clearly identify that there will be no detrimental effects on bringing the Aircraft in safely then I see no reason why he/she should not suggest a low level of emergency response(if any)
"Are you really qualified to specify the response to an emergency? I doubt that very much."
to be fair to my proposal ..... if the aircraft fault is such that the PIC can clearly identify that there will be no detrimental effects on bringing the Aircraft in safely then I see no reason why he/she should not suggest a low level of emergency response(if any)
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bjcc- the Police closed the M4 blocking the only access to South Wales for 7 hours following a smash up on the motorway near Swindon (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/news/032002/28/m4/shtml). Caused chaos over all of southern England. Long after aid was administered, they seemed to make a point of demonstrating to the public their ponderous ways, just as in the case we are talking about the emergency services preferred their ponderous 'normal procedures' response as opposed to a sensible reaction, leaving their resources available to their paymasters (the taxpayer).
You raised Kegworth. An engine failure on a twin is 'an emergency'. On a 4 engined aeroplane, it is not. A jammed flap system due to assymetry protection is not- most definitely not. So 'crash imminent' messages to all emergency services is being decidedly over dramatic- there was more risk to the public having ambulances doing the blue light screaming drama run with tense looking drivers through the streets of London, on a fool's errand, than there ever was to the public from an aeroplane. It has apparently escaped most people here that what is needed is a measured response. This can best be obtained from a crew giving their opinion!
You raised Kegworth. An engine failure on a twin is 'an emergency'. On a 4 engined aeroplane, it is not. A jammed flap system due to assymetry protection is not- most definitely not. So 'crash imminent' messages to all emergency services is being decidedly over dramatic- there was more risk to the public having ambulances doing the blue light screaming drama run with tense looking drivers through the streets of London, on a fool's errand, than there ever was to the public from an aeroplane. It has apparently escaped most people here that what is needed is a measured response. This can best be obtained from a crew giving their opinion!
Last edited by Notso Fantastic; 25th Jun 2004 at 09:49.
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There is a lot of hot air blowing through this thread, however here is my £0.02.
The pilot of the A340 in question deemed the situation serious enough to declare a PAN, the definition of which is "A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or some person on board or in sight, but which does not require immediate assistance". If the pilot deemed that the aircraft was no longer in danger, he could quite easily have terminated the PAN stating that he could make a normal approach and landing, therefore not requiring the attendance of the emergency services.
The controller in question is not (to my knowledge) a qualified ATPL holder with an A340 type rating and currency on type, and is therefore not fully conversant with the systems of an A340, or the drills associated with the failure thereof. The controller therefore has to make a decision based on the information supplied by the crew and his previous training and experience.
It is not the first time I have controlled an aircraft that diverted due to a "minor technical problem, engine indication fluctuations" that quickly escalated to an engine fire and shutdown. That crew were VERY glad that the emergency services were already there as the engine caught fire at 6 mile final.
There are many comments on this thread that show that hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Notso Fantastic
The comments relating to a heard of ambulances sitting plane spotting at Heathrow I think are a little dramatic and unfair. The ambulance crews take their job vey seriously, and would be expecting to be dealing with extreme injuries in a dangerous environment. Hardly a jolly afternoon out.
There is no point in slating the emergency services response to a minor incident, as the next "minor" incident may be turn out to be the next major one for a number of reasons (crew mishandling the aircraft, incorrect drills, misidentification of the problem, worsening of the situation). This incident could only be classed as "minor" AFTER it had landed safely, or the pilot terminated the emergency he had declared.
Again the reference to the prospect that people could be dying in London due to this callout is, without full facts, unfair and seems to be based on a bitter attitude to an unfortunate situation you have experienced. Was there a Full Emergency at LHR the day your relative required an ambulance? I hardly think the emergency services can be blamed for many factors that delay response times and commit resources i.e. traffic congenstion, hoax calls, dealing with drug abusers overdosing.
The procedures for an ATCO to decide what callout to make are based on MATS Pt 1,training and previous experience. If the last time a controller had an aircraft declare an emergency with a flap problem and the thing slewed off the runway, then he is going to take that into consideration when making the call. As has been said, its the old chestnut of understanding and training. We dont tell pilots how to do your job, or even consider to tell you when a PAN or MAYDAY would be unneccesary in our opinion, so please dont bash ATCO's and the emergency services for acting in accordance with their guidelines, training and experience.
Perhaps this could all be condensed into a sensible, constuctive letter with proposals for mutual training to the UK Flight Safety Committee, UK ATS providers, airlines and emergency services?
The pilot of the A340 in question deemed the situation serious enough to declare a PAN, the definition of which is "A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or some person on board or in sight, but which does not require immediate assistance". If the pilot deemed that the aircraft was no longer in danger, he could quite easily have terminated the PAN stating that he could make a normal approach and landing, therefore not requiring the attendance of the emergency services.
The controller in question is not (to my knowledge) a qualified ATPL holder with an A340 type rating and currency on type, and is therefore not fully conversant with the systems of an A340, or the drills associated with the failure thereof. The controller therefore has to make a decision based on the information supplied by the crew and his previous training and experience.
It is not the first time I have controlled an aircraft that diverted due to a "minor technical problem, engine indication fluctuations" that quickly escalated to an engine fire and shutdown. That crew were VERY glad that the emergency services were already there as the engine caught fire at 6 mile final.
There are many comments on this thread that show that hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Notso Fantastic
The comments relating to a heard of ambulances sitting plane spotting at Heathrow I think are a little dramatic and unfair. The ambulance crews take their job vey seriously, and would be expecting to be dealing with extreme injuries in a dangerous environment. Hardly a jolly afternoon out.
There is no point in slating the emergency services response to a minor incident, as the next "minor" incident may be turn out to be the next major one for a number of reasons (crew mishandling the aircraft, incorrect drills, misidentification of the problem, worsening of the situation). This incident could only be classed as "minor" AFTER it had landed safely, or the pilot terminated the emergency he had declared.
Again the reference to the prospect that people could be dying in London due to this callout is, without full facts, unfair and seems to be based on a bitter attitude to an unfortunate situation you have experienced. Was there a Full Emergency at LHR the day your relative required an ambulance? I hardly think the emergency services can be blamed for many factors that delay response times and commit resources i.e. traffic congenstion, hoax calls, dealing with drug abusers overdosing.
The procedures for an ATCO to decide what callout to make are based on MATS Pt 1,training and previous experience. If the last time a controller had an aircraft declare an emergency with a flap problem and the thing slewed off the runway, then he is going to take that into consideration when making the call. As has been said, its the old chestnut of understanding and training. We dont tell pilots how to do your job, or even consider to tell you when a PAN or MAYDAY would be unneccesary in our opinion, so please dont bash ATCO's and the emergency services for acting in accordance with their guidelines, training and experience.
Perhaps this could all be condensed into a sensible, constuctive letter with proposals for mutual training to the UK Flight Safety Committee, UK ATS providers, airlines and emergency services?
Last edited by The Jaguar Fan Club; 25th Jun 2004 at 09:58.
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Not So Fantastic.
I fail to see what a closing roads after a motorway accident has to do with this subject.
I'll explain for your benifit, what is obvious to me, but shows your lack of emergency services experience, and goes far to prove my point that you are not qualified to make the decision you are seeking to make.
The road was closed after an accident firstly to rescue, in saftey anyone trapped in the wreckage, stablise them at the scene and then have them removed to hospital. If the accident was fatal, or may become fatal, it is treated as a crime scene. The full circumstances have to be investigated and the cause of the accident found. This is required as if it is fatal or becomes fatal then a Coranor will hold an inquest.
Now, you may well think that having traffic whizzing by at 70, with the drivers rubbernecking at the mess while you are examining vehicles for defects that could have caused the accident, or mesuring the scene to establish the speed of vehicles, is perfectly acceptable. I do not. Thats why the road was closed. Now translate that to aviation context, how long do AAIB leave the wreckage before its moved? Long enough to have gained all the evidence they can from the scene thats how long.
I am fully aware that Kegworth was a 2 engined aircraft, what I was trying to explain to you, as many others have tried is that the emergency services are there on standby in case something happens, because minor matters can become major very easily.
Again you may well think its all good fun running round with blue lights, and sometimes it is, But its not something done lightly. Everytime I used to respond to an emergency call I put my driving licence at risk. I scew it up and I carry the can. So I was hardly going rushing to spend an afternoon plane spotting, I could have done that driving at normal speeds without the blues and twos.
I fail to see what a closing roads after a motorway accident has to do with this subject.
I'll explain for your benifit, what is obvious to me, but shows your lack of emergency services experience, and goes far to prove my point that you are not qualified to make the decision you are seeking to make.
The road was closed after an accident firstly to rescue, in saftey anyone trapped in the wreckage, stablise them at the scene and then have them removed to hospital. If the accident was fatal, or may become fatal, it is treated as a crime scene. The full circumstances have to be investigated and the cause of the accident found. This is required as if it is fatal or becomes fatal then a Coranor will hold an inquest.
Now, you may well think that having traffic whizzing by at 70, with the drivers rubbernecking at the mess while you are examining vehicles for defects that could have caused the accident, or mesuring the scene to establish the speed of vehicles, is perfectly acceptable. I do not. Thats why the road was closed. Now translate that to aviation context, how long do AAIB leave the wreckage before its moved? Long enough to have gained all the evidence they can from the scene thats how long.
I am fully aware that Kegworth was a 2 engined aircraft, what I was trying to explain to you, as many others have tried is that the emergency services are there on standby in case something happens, because minor matters can become major very easily.
Again you may well think its all good fun running round with blue lights, and sometimes it is, But its not something done lightly. Everytime I used to respond to an emergency call I put my driving licence at risk. I scew it up and I carry the can. So I was hardly going rushing to spend an afternoon plane spotting, I could have done that driving at normal speeds without the blues and twos.
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This can best be obtained from a crew giving their opinion!
Maybe we should just scrap emergency planning, that would be better.
Or let the pilots do it, as they are the experts.
Notso...
Do you by any chance write a column for the Daily Mail?
Also, It seams the only person who constantly keeps mentioning the airline's name is you. Perhaps it is you that will be receiving a letter from their solicitors.
As for letting pilots determine the level of emergency cover required......
Some Airlines have very well trained personel, who have no problem in following protocols or making 'executive desicions' on their own.
Others have poorly trained staff, operate under a blame/shame culture and WILL make poor decisions based purely on protecting their job or family name. No names here but anyone who has worked in this industry long enough knows exactly who they are.
Well done to all involved with this. May you continue to spend my taxes.
Do you by any chance write a column for the Daily Mail?
Also, It seams the only person who constantly keeps mentioning the airline's name is you. Perhaps it is you that will be receiving a letter from their solicitors.
As for letting pilots determine the level of emergency cover required......
Some Airlines have very well trained personel, who have no problem in following protocols or making 'executive desicions' on their own.
Others have poorly trained staff, operate under a blame/shame culture and WILL make poor decisions based purely on protecting their job or family name. No names here but anyone who has worked in this industry long enough knows exactly who they are.
Well done to all involved with this. May you continue to spend my taxes.
Last edited by TURIN; 25th Jun 2004 at 11:09.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Notso..
Yep... from you!
Then...
READ what I actually wrote - I didn't mention GP's hours just their failure to visit patients out of hours - hence more patients now call 999 - either because the GP has told them to or they think they ll get treated quicker in hospital.
Maybe off topic slightly but notice the fire service don't get the same critism for their response - the local county fire service will have been there in force too - what about all the London houses that are burning to the ground?
The emergency services still have a requirement to meet the normal domestic responses to calls whatever is happening at the airport(s) - even if the crash happens. There are facilities in place to provide the back up from mutual aid responses and (rightly or wrongly) the voluntary aid societies.
As has been mentioned leave the emergency planning to the emergency services and the flying to the pilots.... one day you maybe thankful for it...
PW
Pilotwolf seems to have found criticism of response times for emergency services somewhere.
I am a taxpayer, and I don't like seeing my money wasted on such over responses. Especially when my relative had a heart attack and an ambulance wasn't fast in response!
Throwing in GPs hours does seem to be bowling a blinder.
Maybe off topic slightly but notice the fire service don't get the same critism for their response - the local county fire service will have been there in force too - what about all the London houses that are burning to the ground?
The emergency services still have a requirement to meet the normal domestic responses to calls whatever is happening at the airport(s) - even if the crash happens. There are facilities in place to provide the back up from mutual aid responses and (rightly or wrongly) the voluntary aid societies.
As has been mentioned leave the emergency planning to the emergency services and the flying to the pilots.... one day you maybe thankful for it...
PW
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Come on WF, you must remember this leaflet we all got
Aircraft Emergencies
Nature of the problem
Intentions of the crew
Time available
Supplementary information
Aircraft Emergencies
Nature of the problem
Intentions of the crew
Time available
Supplementary information
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Oh, that NITS.
I'm sure the leaflet is around here somewhere......
Some crews are very good at providing all the relevant information and it does make all the difference in calling the correct category of emergency (for want of a better word) and the subsequent ATC plan for what we can or cannot best do in front of and behind the inbound with the problem.
The latter being important for considering what delays the "emergency" traffic might cause so that we can start issuing delay info or EATs as required etc.
WF.
I'm sure the leaflet is around here somewhere......
Some crews are very good at providing all the relevant information and it does make all the difference in calling the correct category of emergency (for want of a better word) and the subsequent ATC plan for what we can or cannot best do in front of and behind the inbound with the problem.
The latter being important for considering what delays the "emergency" traffic might cause so that we can start issuing delay info or EATs as required etc.
WF.
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am I right is saying that this incident arose after a "PAN" was declared by the 340? ......
I think I read it was a "PAN" declarartion by the crew of the 340, on the notes accompanying the Jetphotos.net photo that was referenced earlier in the thread, but the photo seems to have been taken off line?
I think I read it was a "PAN" declarartion by the crew of the 340, on the notes accompanying the Jetphotos.net photo that was referenced earlier in the thread, but the photo seems to have been taken off line?
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MK A340
Apologies: here is the photo again
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=308427
I was not aware of any PAN at the time. The first I became aware of a problem was when I saw emergency vehicles opposite two exits of the runway.
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=308427
I was not aware of any PAN at the time. The first I became aware of a problem was when I saw emergency vehicles opposite two exits of the runway.