View Poll Results: How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Only if you're on long haul
135
11.23%
Not very. We're just 'drivers' locked in our cockpits
436
36.27%
It is still glamorous... or at least the idea of it is
494
41.10%
Have you seen my roster? Zzzz...
165
13.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1202. This poll is closed
How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Ut Sementem Feeceris
This Profession has it all. Good and bad. Overall though it's good IMO. Sure a night Bodrum or Tenerife landing back at 7.30 am isn't exactly fun, but a morning PMI or blast down to MAH is great fun!
Rosters are reasonably stable and improving, 650 hrs/year, reasonable amount of time off (particularly winter). And for this I get £70k/year.
Would I want to go back to 9 to 5 in a (windowless) office. What do you think ?
Best job in the world despite all the attendant bs.
A4
Rosters are reasonably stable and improving, 650 hrs/year, reasonable amount of time off (particularly winter). And for this I get £70k/year.
Would I want to go back to 9 to 5 in a (windowless) office. What do you think ?
Best job in the world despite all the attendant bs.
A4
Last edited by A4; 11th Jun 2004 at 21:17.
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I love everything about my job and wouldn't trade it for the world. It was my dream and now I'm doing it for real. I never cared about the money, pension, terms etc., I just wanted to fly for a living, and now I am.
Never thought I'd earn as much money as I am now, even on a meager piston/turbo captain's salary...and I get to fly in one of the most spectacular/scenic parts of our beloved rock in the ocean IMHO!
ACA
Never thought I'd earn as much money as I am now, even on a meager piston/turbo captain's salary...and I get to fly in one of the most spectacular/scenic parts of our beloved rock in the ocean IMHO!
ACA
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Done the the tyre fitting for Kwik-Fit, & Buy your telly from "Comet" delivery driving.. (Luckily no bloody McDonalds in them days!)and a number of other occupations! Eventually ended up flying the 'dream-come-true' jets(albeit an old one) for a living! My own thoughts are, "How bloody lucky you old Aviators are for being about when Flying an Aircraft meant Flying an Aircraft, There are times when I wish I was born earlier....Flying is in the blood and finance has no sway to the addicted.
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Yorky Towers
Refreshing to find someone with your outlook and believe it or not things were like that even for the non flying types. Excuse my ranting posts but its difficult conversing with individuals that do the job 50/50 for the love and appreciation of it when you have to deal with pilots that stick with it just for the money.
Refreshing to find someone with your outlook and believe it or not things were like that even for the non flying types. Excuse my ranting posts but its difficult conversing with individuals that do the job 50/50 for the love and appreciation of it when you have to deal with pilots that stick with it just for the money.
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It certainly isn't the job it was. Newbies won't realise that, of course, and will still queue for the chance to fly a shiny jet. I did that, and will never regret it- I had a ball.
Now, however, I am faced with increasing hours, roster turbulence, a company that wants me to move base every couple of years because they can't make their mind up what they want to do, endless nightstops, and generally static pay and conditions. I have seen the effect all this has on my family, and I have had enough. I'm off to do something else.
It constantly amazes me how some colleagues value the highly restricted flying we do, more than their marriages. Many value managing the autopilot more than raising their kids.
Being out of aviation doesn't necessarily mean sitting in an office. You are the master of your own destiny. I'm starting a business that, on pessimistic projections, will earn me twice the amount of my essentially stagnant training captains salary. No, it isn't MLM...
For those who are happy, excellent - good for you. However, there is no doubt that wholesale erosion of pay, conditions and prestige is taking place across the industry. New entrants will never achieve the relative salaries of their current, senior peers. Companies in all branches of aviation are faced with the necesssity of improving efficiency, and trimming their costs- of which pilot salaries are a major part. Blame Stelios.
For me, the only part about the job worth having is the bit from brakes off to brakes on. The rest is not worth the hassle.
Now, however, I am faced with increasing hours, roster turbulence, a company that wants me to move base every couple of years because they can't make their mind up what they want to do, endless nightstops, and generally static pay and conditions. I have seen the effect all this has on my family, and I have had enough. I'm off to do something else.
It constantly amazes me how some colleagues value the highly restricted flying we do, more than their marriages. Many value managing the autopilot more than raising their kids.
Being out of aviation doesn't necessarily mean sitting in an office. You are the master of your own destiny. I'm starting a business that, on pessimistic projections, will earn me twice the amount of my essentially stagnant training captains salary. No, it isn't MLM...
For those who are happy, excellent - good for you. However, there is no doubt that wholesale erosion of pay, conditions and prestige is taking place across the industry. New entrants will never achieve the relative salaries of their current, senior peers. Companies in all branches of aviation are faced with the necesssity of improving efficiency, and trimming their costs- of which pilot salaries are a major part. Blame Stelios.
For me, the only part about the job worth having is the bit from brakes off to brakes on. The rest is not worth the hassle.
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I love my chosen career - I'm an airline pilot.
I have flown long haul and played the nodding donkey game in the middle of the night over the Bay of Bengal, trying to raise Calcutta / Kolkata on H.F.
I have flown short haul and had the on-going stress of trying to keep the schedule throughout a six sector day.
I have had other jobs and hated them all.
Teacher, Driver, Lab Technician, Postman, all very honourable jobs and I've done them all, but they don't come close to being a pilot.
Yes, without doubt, the terms and conditions have been seriously eroded in the last 3 years especially.
Unquestionably, more and more people are trying to invade our Flight Decks and influence our decision making. Carry less fuel, carry more payload, fly a different route, choose a less suitable alternate.
Unquestionably more and more of our decisions are being questioned. Why did you offload payload to uplift more fuel? What did you say to that drunken passenger who has filed a complaint against you?
For all of this, I reassure myself with three ideas;
1. To become a pilot now requires you to invest a huge amount of money in the hope that you might get a flying job that pays well enough to justify the initial outlay. Smart young people nowdays are comparing the expense of training to become a pilot with the chance of getting a well paid flying job. For more and more, the risk is just too great and they head for other careers.
At the same time airlines are doing their best to avoid paying for pilot training.
The result is going to be in the not too distant future, too few pilots. What will happen to terms and conditions then?
2. Mayor of New York City on 11 Sept 01 was Rudolph Giuliani. His quote on being accountable for your actions as a leader would frighten those who don't / can't lead, and ring clear and true to those who choose to lead.
"More than anyone, leaders should welcome being held accountable. Nothing builds confidence in a leader more than a willingness to take responsibility for what happens during his watch."
They want to hold the captain accountable, fine. Just as long as those pointing the finger are equally prepared to accept accountability.
3. I have tried other jobs. I love flying. I have done since I first saw airliners at Heathrow in 1964. I wouldn't want to do anything else. So stop complaining and get on with the job.
Cheers
I have flown long haul and played the nodding donkey game in the middle of the night over the Bay of Bengal, trying to raise Calcutta / Kolkata on H.F.
I have flown short haul and had the on-going stress of trying to keep the schedule throughout a six sector day.
I have had other jobs and hated them all.
Teacher, Driver, Lab Technician, Postman, all very honourable jobs and I've done them all, but they don't come close to being a pilot.
Yes, without doubt, the terms and conditions have been seriously eroded in the last 3 years especially.
Unquestionably, more and more people are trying to invade our Flight Decks and influence our decision making. Carry less fuel, carry more payload, fly a different route, choose a less suitable alternate.
Unquestionably more and more of our decisions are being questioned. Why did you offload payload to uplift more fuel? What did you say to that drunken passenger who has filed a complaint against you?
For all of this, I reassure myself with three ideas;
1. To become a pilot now requires you to invest a huge amount of money in the hope that you might get a flying job that pays well enough to justify the initial outlay. Smart young people nowdays are comparing the expense of training to become a pilot with the chance of getting a well paid flying job. For more and more, the risk is just too great and they head for other careers.
At the same time airlines are doing their best to avoid paying for pilot training.
The result is going to be in the not too distant future, too few pilots. What will happen to terms and conditions then?
2. Mayor of New York City on 11 Sept 01 was Rudolph Giuliani. His quote on being accountable for your actions as a leader would frighten those who don't / can't lead, and ring clear and true to those who choose to lead.
"More than anyone, leaders should welcome being held accountable. Nothing builds confidence in a leader more than a willingness to take responsibility for what happens during his watch."
They want to hold the captain accountable, fine. Just as long as those pointing the finger are equally prepared to accept accountability.
3. I have tried other jobs. I love flying. I have done since I first saw airliners at Heathrow in 1964. I wouldn't want to do anything else. So stop complaining and get on with the job.
Cheers
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Flying high performance military aircraft was the most challenging, stimulating and satisfying occupation I've ever undertaken. Unfortunately, my flying career was cut short due to an accident. Tried ATC but it wasn't the same. I then opted for 'something completely different' with an intellectual challenge. Satisfying - but nothing replaces the cockpit.
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MMmmm, job is changing.
You only have to read the paper to see that you can earn £50-£60k + selling mobile phones.
We are working harder than ever, companies still 'bragging' about the low seat price's which is having a damaging affect on the industry, you should not (and in reality cannot) travel on an aircraft for £30, our pensions are at risk (all industries thanks to gorden brown i know), staff travel benefits ? - better off checking the bucket shops, we have an address which means we are being milked by the tax system and security has gone stupid.
Do i like my job - love it.
You only have to read the paper to see that you can earn £50-£60k + selling mobile phones.
We are working harder than ever, companies still 'bragging' about the low seat price's which is having a damaging affect on the industry, you should not (and in reality cannot) travel on an aircraft for £30, our pensions are at risk (all industries thanks to gorden brown i know), staff travel benefits ? - better off checking the bucket shops, we have an address which means we are being milked by the tax system and security has gone stupid.
Do i like my job - love it.
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The graph at the link below says it all. In the constant battle to reduce costs, someone has to be the casualty. The most obvious target......... those overpaid bus drivers.
As long as pilots are willing to settle for less, the downward spiral will continue until the inevitable shortage of trained pilots happens.
Then, when the supply and demand pendulum finally and inexorably swings back in favour of pilots, they will be pilloried as being "unreasonable, unrealistic, greedy, etc, etc," when they attempt to make back the lost ground. Wait and see.
Flying is a very nice hobby, but you have to have another source of income if you don't want to see your standard of living decline steadily.
http://www.flightpaths.com.au/chapters/decline3.pdf
As long as pilots are willing to settle for less, the downward spiral will continue until the inevitable shortage of trained pilots happens.
Then, when the supply and demand pendulum finally and inexorably swings back in favour of pilots, they will be pilloried as being "unreasonable, unrealistic, greedy, etc, etc," when they attempt to make back the lost ground. Wait and see.
Flying is a very nice hobby, but you have to have another source of income if you don't want to see your standard of living decline steadily.
http://www.flightpaths.com.au/chapters/decline3.pdf
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The poll misses the point entirely.Dissatisfaction with the job today does not originate from poor rostering and reduced benefits(although these factors are important).Rather it is a case of a gradual erosion of the values and integrity that the pilot community once held.Forced by economic downturn,we are left now with only a handful of decent airlines where mutual respect and common decency are still to be found.Pilots are reduced to system operators and their authority clearly stops at the flight deck door.Not only is the mutual respect between management and pilots gone,but there is no bond between pilots and flight attendants.In some airlines,there is outright war.
CRM and unnecessarily fussy SOP's have eroded the Commander's authority and its hard to find an airline where airmanship is king these days.
The arrival of low-cost has been blamed yet the irony is that Southwest is undoubtedly one of the best airlines on the planet.Pilots are given the equipment they want,SOP's are not intrusive("standard Boeing,keep it simple"),Commanders are not afraid to exercise discretion,there's no grassing,FA's are full of cheer and dont think its beneath them to actually be polite to the passengers,and management is the best in the industry.
Many aspire to this model but most fail miserably I'm afraid.It is not easy to run a great airline these days.
CRM and unnecessarily fussy SOP's have eroded the Commander's authority and its hard to find an airline where airmanship is king these days.
The arrival of low-cost has been blamed yet the irony is that Southwest is undoubtedly one of the best airlines on the planet.Pilots are given the equipment they want,SOP's are not intrusive("standard Boeing,keep it simple"),Commanders are not afraid to exercise discretion,there's no grassing,FA's are full of cheer and dont think its beneath them to actually be polite to the passengers,and management is the best in the industry.
Many aspire to this model but most fail miserably I'm afraid.It is not easy to run a great airline these days.
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Rananim
I disagree with this view, assuming the operation is safe. For me rostering is the most important factor by far in keeping me satisfied.
Britannia is the only company I've worked for that I thought had really good rostering - Easyjets' was a flight safety hazard, often pushing right to the limit just because they could, even if in reality this approach caused knock on problems all down the line.
Am I alone in wondering why the law seems to be reducing all my friends working hours while as pilots we are heading at high speed the other way?
Can someone tell me why I as an individual do not have the same working rights as everyone else just because I fly aeroplanes for a living?
Dissatisfaction with the job today does not originate from poor rostering and reduced benefits(although these factors are important)
Britannia is the only company I've worked for that I thought had really good rostering - Easyjets' was a flight safety hazard, often pushing right to the limit just because they could, even if in reality this approach caused knock on problems all down the line.
Am I alone in wondering why the law seems to be reducing all my friends working hours while as pilots we are heading at high speed the other way?
Can someone tell me why I as an individual do not have the same working rights as everyone else just because I fly aeroplanes for a living?
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As someone said earlier, the bit from "Brakes off" to "Brakes on" is pretty nearly as good as ever it was. The trouble is all the rest of the crud, you have said it all already. Most of us were probably not motivated by the money alone, and even those who were have a personal graph where the hassle and lack of a life eventually cross the remuneration line.
For more and more of us, that point is reached earlier and earlier - the downside is increasingly not worth the upside. However, once in, most of us could not afford to get out, so we are stuck with watching our Ts and Cs and lifestyle accelerate downhill.
I don't have any answers, but I've just left BA for a non-airline post which will keep me flying albeit on a much reduced level, but should hand me my life and family back without any financial pain. Will I miss the upsides - you bet, the downsides?.....well, I have framed my last roster to remind me whenever I wish I was still there!
For more and more of us, that point is reached earlier and earlier - the downside is increasingly not worth the upside. However, once in, most of us could not afford to get out, so we are stuck with watching our Ts and Cs and lifestyle accelerate downhill.
I don't have any answers, but I've just left BA for a non-airline post which will keep me flying albeit on a much reduced level, but should hand me my life and family back without any financial pain. Will I miss the upsides - you bet, the downsides?.....well, I have framed my last roster to remind me whenever I wish I was still there!
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Is it worth it?
You bet your life it is!
I'd love to know what the dissatisfied moaners did before aviating, because all those like me who had truly abominable jobs before deciding to become a pilot seem to adore the job.
Even the worst paid FO earns more than I ever have (and I'm an intelligent, hard-working 33 yr old graduate), and I worked hours that would make a junior doctor wince, with all the stupid rostering combinations that only a sadist can dream of, and having to take all the crap from joe public that your CC's have to put up with every day.
I've wanted to be a pilot all my life, and the thought of it not being worth it never entered my head, even mid-training when 9/11 occurred. I'm not here for the money, and I can't imagine how thoroughly dull it must be sitting next to the beancounter Scrooge who is.
You bet your life it is!
I'd love to know what the dissatisfied moaners did before aviating, because all those like me who had truly abominable jobs before deciding to become a pilot seem to adore the job.
Even the worst paid FO earns more than I ever have (and I'm an intelligent, hard-working 33 yr old graduate), and I worked hours that would make a junior doctor wince, with all the stupid rostering combinations that only a sadist can dream of, and having to take all the crap from joe public that your CC's have to put up with every day.
I've wanted to be a pilot all my life, and the thought of it not being worth it never entered my head, even mid-training when 9/11 occurred. I'm not here for the money, and I can't imagine how thoroughly dull it must be sitting next to the beancounter Scrooge who is.
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Nice one Witchydokita,
I agree with you for the most part, but make no mistake I am here for the cash as well.
Being properly remunerated- good pay, final salary pension, loss of licence, PHI, health care, life insurance, medicals, ...etc is what I expect And get, if not I am out of here.
Good luck!
I agree with you for the most part, but make no mistake I am here for the cash as well.
Being properly remunerated- good pay, final salary pension, loss of licence, PHI, health care, life insurance, medicals, ...etc is what I expect
And get, if not I am out of here.Good luck!
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I feel 2 things.
One is that I got to where I wanted to, well done me, money, sky all day, family, admiration by others and of course my good looks.
Then I think, I am being used to death, flogged by brutal-selfish management who have absolutely no interest in me or my welfare, untrained and unknowledgeable young crewing persons, who are younger than my kids.
I have no breaks during my often 10+ hour long 4 sector day, I get no food, no transport home.
When I get home I fall over. I get 4 hours then bed, then up again and again and again.
Days off are necessary to re gain the lost energy, but no time enough to do something really, as soon you've got to go to bed again to repeat the slog.
In short it's mostly tiring and could be potentially fatal one day.
I am planning to get out as soon as I achieve my financial goals, so I could live in relative peace and reasonable financial health.
All that matters is ME and MY FAMILY.
THE SKY IS NOT ENOUGH!!!
One is that I got to where I wanted to, well done me, money, sky all day, family, admiration by others and of course my good looks.
Then I think, I am being used to death, flogged by brutal-selfish management who have absolutely no interest in me or my welfare, untrained and unknowledgeable young crewing persons, who are younger than my kids.
I have no breaks during my often 10+ hour long 4 sector day, I get no food, no transport home.
When I get home I fall over. I get 4 hours then bed, then up again and again and again.
Days off are necessary to re gain the lost energy, but no time enough to do something really, as soon you've got to go to bed again to repeat the slog.
In short it's mostly tiring and could be potentially fatal one day.
I am planning to get out as soon as I achieve my financial goals, so I could live in relative peace and reasonable financial health.
All that matters is ME and MY FAMILY.
THE SKY IS NOT ENOUGH!!!
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The thing is, there are two distinct schools of thought here.There are the starry-eyed dreamers who would fly for nothing if you gave them a chance, then there are the hard-nosed professionals who built the aviation industry through the learning curve, and paid their dues on the way.
We all start as starry-eyed dreamers, but pretty soon it becomes obvious that this is a profession and one must adopt a professional attitude.
From observation, the transition takes under 2 years in my airline, and the most vocal right now are those who have been in the airline under 5 years. The experience may be different in other airlines, as we have had pretty bad mgmt/crew relations over the last 4 years or so, but I suspect the principle will be maintained.
My reading of the consensus of those that I speak to is that we all love flying, but the bull that goes with it is increasing exponentially, and the rewards are decreasing by inverse proportion to the bull.
When I started flying professionally (1964), the ops manual was all in a 1 inch binder, now there are 7 manuals, all of which stress a 3 inch binder. Most of the time now I am a glorified systems monitor, occasionally steering round the odd thunderstorm.
That is not flying.
Punching out the automatics, and really flying is much frowned on, so that sometime soon hand flying will be a forgotten skill.
I have just flown my last flight before starting retirement to-morrow, and I look back with nostalgia .
I will miss the flying, but I am glad I did it in "those days". Small pistons , tail draggers, heavy recips, turbo-props large and small, jets large and small, I loved them all, but faced with how it is now I am not sure I would want to start a career in the present circumstances.
Then again, I suppose those who are starting now will be saying the same in 30 or 40 years time.
We all start as starry-eyed dreamers, but pretty soon it becomes obvious that this is a profession and one must adopt a professional attitude.
From observation, the transition takes under 2 years in my airline, and the most vocal right now are those who have been in the airline under 5 years. The experience may be different in other airlines, as we have had pretty bad mgmt/crew relations over the last 4 years or so, but I suspect the principle will be maintained.
My reading of the consensus of those that I speak to is that we all love flying, but the bull that goes with it is increasing exponentially, and the rewards are decreasing by inverse proportion to the bull.
When I started flying professionally (1964), the ops manual was all in a 1 inch binder, now there are 7 manuals, all of which stress a 3 inch binder. Most of the time now I am a glorified systems monitor, occasionally steering round the odd thunderstorm.
That is not flying.
Punching out the automatics, and really flying is much frowned on, so that sometime soon hand flying will be a forgotten skill.
I have just flown my last flight before starting retirement to-morrow, and I look back with nostalgia .
I will miss the flying, but I am glad I did it in "those days". Small pistons , tail draggers, heavy recips, turbo-props large and small, jets large and small, I loved them all, but faced with how it is now I am not sure I would want to start a career in the present circumstances.
Then again, I suppose those who are starting now will be saying the same in 30 or 40 years time.
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Well I've been flying for 20 years, and is the only job I've ever done (if you can call it a job). Did short houl now doing long and have enjoyed every bit of it, so my perspective is only from this side , of course things have changed last 20 years, even I changed companies since my first one went out of bussiness, even with all the High and Lows of my career, would I do it again?????? Betch ya I would....
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I first was confronted and immediately fascinated with aviation in the 70s. The sound and smell of the low-bypass turbines of those old and glorious aircraft were the symbol of the “Big wide world” Big strong tough pilots and cute petite flight attendants travelling the world, driving big cars and living in large houses. AWSOME!!
So in the early nineties I went for the gold, paid a lot of money and just as I though I got it, some bearded fuddermucker with some bed sheets on his head hade to screw it all up for me. At first I thought my life is over… but it wasn’t. I still work in aviation but now second guess if I’d still be happy flying under these conditions. Major or low-cost doesn’t really matter as a new stiff on the block as I gather. They’ll (management) will ream you either way. You’ll be hustled by high school dropouts TSA agents and you never know which side is currently trying to blow you out of the sky.
Having said that, I don’t regret for one second having done what I did. If were to be in the pointy end at fl360 id probably be FDH (fat, dumb and happy), but I’m not sure, knowing what I know today if id did it all over again. It just doest seem as glorious as it was thirty years ago. I don’t mean to say that I don’t like flying any more, I still fly privately, but for a living….?
So in the early nineties I went for the gold, paid a lot of money and just as I though I got it, some bearded fuddermucker with some bed sheets on his head hade to screw it all up for me. At first I thought my life is over… but it wasn’t. I still work in aviation but now second guess if I’d still be happy flying under these conditions. Major or low-cost doesn’t really matter as a new stiff on the block as I gather. They’ll (management) will ream you either way. You’ll be hustled by high school dropouts TSA agents and you never know which side is currently trying to blow you out of the sky.
Having said that, I don’t regret for one second having done what I did. If were to be in the pointy end at fl360 id probably be FDH (fat, dumb and happy), but I’m not sure, knowing what I know today if id did it all over again. It just doest seem as glorious as it was thirty years ago. I don’t mean to say that I don’t like flying any more, I still fly privately, but for a living….?