Greek airports
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Greek airports
Not really a rumour or news but just felt that the state of Greek airports should be discussed since every time we go there we put our licences and therefore our livelihood on the line.
The amount of money that goes into Greece every summer must keep the economy going, unyet the greek islands are in my view the most dangerous places to fly into this side of Africa.
Non precision approaches everywhere - high ground - lack of good atc- and god forbid if something went wrong - speros walking out with his fire extinguisher trolley ! even the runway markings etc are if visible, non standard.
We know about the lack of investment for whatever reason (corruption etc) but can anything be done or are we going to wait untill something happens ?
any thoughts ?
The amount of money that goes into Greece every summer must keep the economy going, unyet the greek islands are in my view the most dangerous places to fly into this side of Africa.
Non precision approaches everywhere - high ground - lack of good atc- and god forbid if something went wrong - speros walking out with his fire extinguisher trolley ! even the runway markings etc are if visible, non standard.
We know about the lack of investment for whatever reason (corruption etc) but can anything be done or are we going to wait untill something happens ?
any thoughts ?
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big boys rules !
I like going to the Greek islands , I find that it is a place that I have the freedom to use my pilotage skills in a way that is now not posable in northern europe.
The fact that most of these Islands are mostly summer destinasions and the location of the airports makes putting in an ILS a non-starter from both an operational and financial standpoint.
I have very little doubt that the fire services only just meet the minimum requirement and the ATC is "lackluster" but only once in four years have they done anything to put me in danger and that was only after excessive requests for descent from another aircraft who seemed not to understand that the controller had no radar.
The fact is that the south of europe as far as flying is concerned is played by " bis boys rules" you have to fly the aircraft in a way to fit in with the enviroment and remember that your safety is almost entierly in your own hands.
" Visual approach please"
The fact that most of these Islands are mostly summer destinasions and the location of the airports makes putting in an ILS a non-starter from both an operational and financial standpoint.
I have very little doubt that the fire services only just meet the minimum requirement and the ATC is "lackluster" but only once in four years have they done anything to put me in danger and that was only after excessive requests for descent from another aircraft who seemed not to understand that the controller had no radar.
The fact is that the south of europe as far as flying is concerned is played by " bis boys rules" you have to fly the aircraft in a way to fit in with the enviroment and remember that your safety is almost entierly in your own hands.
" Visual approach please"
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Greek Airports
I have been flying for 26 years in Greek airports, lately as a Flight Operations Inspector of Hellenic CAA. I am always on alert when I operate in and out of them , especially to-from the islands. I agree that are difficult places to be, and often dangerous weatherwise, requiring sometimes excellent airmanhip from the crews ! However, from my new post I see that a great effort, by HCAA, has been going on to minimise the existing problems. As far as the Cat 2 is concerned, the truth which is not known to many people, is that it was the result of political pressures against the Greek government by FAA concerning SAFETY of airports. But this SAFETY concern is translated in millions of $ in contracts with US and British companies for the "SAFETY" of Olympic Games 2004. We know very well that after deciding to organize the Games ( I belong to those who were against that considering the fact that Olympic Games cannot be started without the celebration in Ancient Olympia anyway ) we would have to pay the price. We cannot be fooled !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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mmmmm a and c !
big boys rules ? safety is my main concern, not out to prove my 'piloting skills' to anyone, don't wish to be put in the postion where i need to be a hero and i can't for the life of me see why with a bit of investment kos / zth / kfl etc can't have an ILS, it is a disgrace when you think that we are talking about a country in the middle of europe.
Where does all the money go ? maybe a few seasons of not going there would sort them out ?
big boys rules ? safety is my main concern, not out to prove my 'piloting skills' to anyone, don't wish to be put in the postion where i need to be a hero and i can't for the life of me see why with a bit of investment kos / zth / kfl etc can't have an ILS, it is a disgrace when you think that we are talking about a country in the middle of europe.
Where does all the money go ? maybe a few seasons of not going there would sort them out ?
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toon
Ask your self when was the last time that you had to do a "limits" approach into these airfields ?.
I very much doubt if an ILS would have much lower limits at ZTH or EFL because of the topography and I am not sure that a circle to land from an ILS would be much safer that a straight in from a VOR/DME.
As you say safety is paramount and part of the "big boys rules" is being able to know when it is time to divert , some times the hardest part of flying is telling the company that you have diverted and defending that action. I don't do hero ! and would not like to fly with some one who did but I do like to hand fly the aircraft when apropriate to keep in practice.
Part of me is becoming a little uneasy with the "stick and rudder" skills of the new pilots and there reliance on automation , this shows up well in the Greek islands and I think that the industry would do well to adress this BEFORE in becomes a problem.
I very much doubt if an ILS would have much lower limits at ZTH or EFL because of the topography and I am not sure that a circle to land from an ILS would be much safer that a straight in from a VOR/DME.
As you say safety is paramount and part of the "big boys rules" is being able to know when it is time to divert , some times the hardest part of flying is telling the company that you have diverted and defending that action. I don't do hero ! and would not like to fly with some one who did but I do like to hand fly the aircraft when apropriate to keep in practice.
Part of me is becoming a little uneasy with the "stick and rudder" skills of the new pilots and there reliance on automation , this shows up well in the Greek islands and I think that the industry would do well to adress this BEFORE in becomes a problem.
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"maybe a few seasons of not going there would sort them out ?"
And you and me both as well pal. try no flights equals no job.
"pilotage"
Isnt that a red wine?
"maybe a few seasons of not going there would sort them out ?"
And you and me both as well pal. try no flights equals no job.
"pilotage"
Isnt that a red wine?
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I think A and C is correct. At most of these places installation of an ILS wouldn't help a great deal if you were able to install one at all.
However investment is required in airports throughout Greece.
I'm going to CFU tonight and I remember it as a shoddy little black hole with a bloody great lump in RWY35 at just about the point we rotate. Decent runway surfaces and proper C/L and approach lighting are essential.
AS for the ATC I've not had a problem yet. Those guys work hard with limited equipment and they shift a lot of traffic. And you're less likely to get screwed over by them than you are by PMI ACC on a Saturday evening when the Air Nostrum fleet is i/b.
However investment is required in airports throughout Greece.
I'm going to CFU tonight and I remember it as a shoddy little black hole with a bloody great lump in RWY35 at just about the point we rotate. Decent runway surfaces and proper C/L and approach lighting are essential.
AS for the ATC I've not had a problem yet. Those guys work hard with limited equipment and they shift a lot of traffic. And you're less likely to get screwed over by them than you are by PMI ACC on a Saturday evening when the Air Nostrum fleet is i/b.
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I know a lot of "pilots" in my company sharing the view of toon: one spectacular idea was when I told the Capt "tell them we are ready for a visual" he answered " we aren't paid well enough to make a visual"! Another sad story when I was flying a 737 with a guy who spent 10 years on a 747, about 10 track miles from touchdown at 3000' with 210 kts I asked for a visual for him, and instead of turning final manually he started to compose a magenta line , even a downwind leg on the FMC. If you think greek islands are tricky, try Indonesian islands ( and certain parts of Africa too) Just read the story about a 757 go-around somewhere in Scandinavia - all about manual "skills" - simply we all need that skills, at least once in a lifetime will be useful to have! Everyone who can fly a 1 or 2 miles vis. final they are not heroes, they are just doing the job from A to B, and being ready for anything in flight can happen!
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CFU
My 10p worth?
No-one wants to go to CFU at night. At night in bad weather?
How stupid do you have to be?
Good luck in the cabin JT, But you don't go there do you? We must meet somewhere else :-}
How about some radar and ILS's chaps?
On a different note.
JT
No-one wants to go to CFU at night. At night in bad weather?
How stupid do you have to be?
Good luck in the cabin JT, But you don't go there do you? We must meet somewhere else :-}
How about some radar and ILS's chaps?
On a different note.
JT
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toon
re: greek airports
you seem worried about your licence and livelihood e.t.c, ever been to IRAN,NEPAL,ETHIOPIA,YEMEN, to name a few?
how about a new profession, then you dont have to worry so much!
re: greek airports
you seem worried about your licence and livelihood e.t.c, ever been to IRAN,NEPAL,ETHIOPIA,YEMEN, to name a few?
how about a new profession, then you dont have to worry so much!
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CFU at night
I find it hard to think that anyone with the skill level required to pilot a public transport would find CFU at night a problem when approaching from the south.
However at night the circle to land over the town is to say the least very demanding to a point at which I question the wisdom of doing it.
The weather is a factor in all flying activitys and can render even the safest airports unuseable so it is wise to load enough fuel to keep you options open and if you think that landing is unwise divert.
This leads me to another question . Is the real problem the consiquences that commanders feel would come from the management if they decide to divert ?. ( fortunatly I don't have this problem ).
However at night the circle to land over the town is to say the least very demanding to a point at which I question the wisdom of doing it.
The weather is a factor in all flying activitys and can render even the safest airports unuseable so it is wise to load enough fuel to keep you options open and if you think that landing is unwise divert.
This leads me to another question . Is the real problem the consiquences that commanders feel would come from the management if they decide to divert ?. ( fortunatly I don't have this problem ).
CFU at night, eh?
Remember when none of the UK operators went to CFU at night when I was with Orion (happy days!). Orion decide to go in there at night and, guess what, within a very short period of time everyone else was doing the same!
If the old Hong Kong could have an offset ILS with DME at the threshold then I am sure CFU could do the same!
Was sitting on the ramp there early one morning after we had just scraped in off the RW 35 approach ( the usual bit of stratus in the bay!) watching the antics of everyone else cavorting around to get in.
A certain Greek carrier manages to get in off RW 17 after several a/c had gone around and diverted. "How did you do that?" a voice asks on the R/T - "Ah well, we fly the 347 radial off KRK to 15 DME down to 700 ft and then turn left base for RW 17!" My FO and I look at the chart and agree how sensible such a procedure might be but off course not permitted! Whether it would comply with all the ICAO Pan/Ops criteria is another matter but the point I am making is that surely they could come up with some better instrument approaches than they have at the moment.
That said I have to agree that the fun aspect of operating into the Greek airfields it is a great opportunity to do some basic flying and renew skills that are fast becoming almost obsolete - long as you dont wrap yourself around the hills whilst you are doing it!
Remember when none of the UK operators went to CFU at night when I was with Orion (happy days!). Orion decide to go in there at night and, guess what, within a very short period of time everyone else was doing the same!
If the old Hong Kong could have an offset ILS with DME at the threshold then I am sure CFU could do the same!
Was sitting on the ramp there early one morning after we had just scraped in off the RW 35 approach ( the usual bit of stratus in the bay!) watching the antics of everyone else cavorting around to get in.
A certain Greek carrier manages to get in off RW 17 after several a/c had gone around and diverted. "How did you do that?" a voice asks on the R/T - "Ah well, we fly the 347 radial off KRK to 15 DME down to 700 ft and then turn left base for RW 17!" My FO and I look at the chart and agree how sensible such a procedure might be but off course not permitted! Whether it would comply with all the ICAO Pan/Ops criteria is another matter but the point I am making is that surely they could come up with some better instrument approaches than they have at the moment.
That said I have to agree that the fun aspect of operating into the Greek airfields it is a great opportunity to do some basic flying and renew skills that are fast becoming almost obsolete - long as you dont wrap yourself around the hills whilst you are doing it!
Non precision approaches everywhere - high ground - lack of good atc-
Conduct a company or personal CFIT / ALAR safety audit. A good template can be downloaded from ”Risk reduction Guide”. Versions of this are also available in several languages here: CFIT and there is a spread sheet version of this (English/French) here: see ALAR
Also see the crew checklist “ALAR risk awareness tool”.
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A and C, Verified,etc i agree in some aspects, visuals keep our skills up to speed and no, i have never yet been down to minimum's in greece although had to do a circling onto 17 at CFU the other night ! I know a few people that have in CFU and diverted. I have no problem what so ever diverting and the decision i make when I fly is mine and my management will back it, no explanation required.
The real point I was making is that the state of the runways etc would be unacceptable if it was any other country in europe but because it is greece and 'always been thus' thats ok !, Yes some money is being spent on aprons at ZAK to name but one, but the runways should be resufaced and approach lights installed (yes even at KOS) they managed it at old hong kong ?
Oh for the record i have done visuals into everywhere from south america to deepest africa.
The real point I was making is that the state of the runways etc would be unacceptable if it was any other country in europe but because it is greece and 'always been thus' thats ok !, Yes some money is being spent on aprons at ZAK to name but one, but the runways should be resufaced and approach lights installed (yes even at KOS) they managed it at old hong kong ?
Oh for the record i have done visuals into everywhere from south america to deepest africa.
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I agree with the point that the cost of ILS and radar installations for the small islands may not be economically viable, but there should be more effort made to keep the installed equipment up to standard, such as calibrating VORs and ensuring PAPIs/VASIs indicate something along the lines of what is published (KFL was mentioned, and the PAPIs there are a prime example).
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Agree with all points on 17 cfu but basically it all boils down to flying the proceedure to the best of your ability. Good airmanship is knowing your limitations having the cojones to act on them.
Practicing skills is not very appropiate with a full load.The skills should be there to what ever limitations you respect. The R in crm refers to resource. Autopilots that fly more acurately than me are a resource as are high minma that make me go around.
I love the greek islands but know the punters expect me to use all my resources to keep them safe, including humility.
The uk industry is regulated to avoid the phrase "you pays yer money you takes yer chances". When we operate to areas like greece that are remiss in their obligations to safety we are the last line of defence in that chain of regulation.
Greece is different , and stretches the term european to its thinnest meaning but life would be boring if we were all british.
Practicing skills is not very appropiate with a full load.The skills should be there to what ever limitations you respect. The R in crm refers to resource. Autopilots that fly more acurately than me are a resource as are high minma that make me go around.
I love the greek islands but know the punters expect me to use all my resources to keep them safe, including humility.
The uk industry is regulated to avoid the phrase "you pays yer money you takes yer chances". When we operate to areas like greece that are remiss in their obligations to safety we are the last line of defence in that chain of regulation.
Greece is different , and stretches the term european to its thinnest meaning but life would be boring if we were all british.