AV8 Air Problems?
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: abroad
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bmi might be thinking of expanding their MAN A330 operation to South Africa according to Thursday's FT. Would this be likely to be in direct cooperation with a Tour Operator though?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the jungle
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flightrider I maybe misunderstanding your post, but EXCEL had nothing to do with what happened at AV8. It was the directors of the so called ambitious parent company CT2 who were "playing" at having an airline and neglected their responsibilities especially when it came to paying the bills. They employed all these aviation experienced people and promptly refused to take onboard their advice and totally undermined their authority. This solid foundation showed a promsing future and will no doubt be a loss to the tour operator in the long run. MOD gathered together an excellent team which would have gone places. The main disappointment is not the collapse of the airline, but the opportunity that will be missed...
Last edited by monkey lover; 28th Mar 2004 at 10:57.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: EGGW
Posts: 2,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The B767 operates under Icelandic registration, so it operates for CT2, in the colours of AV8. It has operated in AV8s name only, as l understand the aircraft is on a wet lease. It may well have had some cabin crew paid for by AV8, but they would be flying under Icelandair.
This company seemed to be doomed for a long time and I think Excel has had no part in its downfall.
If you have had a B757 since October/November and still not got the Airline up and running, it was only a matter of time before something gives. Unless they are paying a lease rate by the flying hour, they must have lost a tidy sum in the bargain.
AV8 as I understand it still does not have an AOC, the CAA is getting a lot hotter on start ups as Flyjet found out at their outset.
The AV8 B767 may fly for a number of months or longer in its colours, as it does not matter what is painted on the side, so the airline might carry on indefinitely as AV8. You only have to look at Air Scotland to see that.
This company seemed to be doomed for a long time and I think Excel has had no part in its downfall.
If you have had a B757 since October/November and still not got the Airline up and running, it was only a matter of time before something gives. Unless they are paying a lease rate by the flying hour, they must have lost a tidy sum in the bargain.
AV8 as I understand it still does not have an AOC, the CAA is getting a lot hotter on start ups as Flyjet found out at their outset.
The AV8 B767 may fly for a number of months or longer in its colours, as it does not matter what is painted on the side, so the airline might carry on indefinitely as AV8. You only have to look at Air Scotland to see that.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shame, I know MOD and I wished him well with this project. However, I'm not sure his flight operations experience helped him with dealing with the CAA's CPG ( the department responsible for Operating Licences as opposed to AOC's)
I've heard that the CAA CPG put a funding requirement on AV8 of £8M ( this for effectively one aircraft, althought he 767 ACMI lease would have to have been included). This is on top of CT2's ATOL Bond of circa £3M. The CAA's forumla is that the operation should be sufficiently funded to cater for three months of costs with no income. Now, because the CAA always apply the same formula, ( irrespective of charter or scheduled) they include in their costs the DOC's ( Direct Operating Costs) of flying the aircraft. If you are starting a scheduled airline, that makes sense, but with a charter airline, it could be argued that if the charterer doesn't pay, the the flight doen't operate, so the DOC's could be excluded from the calculation.
If AV8 had argued this, they might have dropped the funding requirement to a level CT2 could manage. This argument has won results in the past.
Barmy Army, I'm afraid that ultimately the blame for the failure of this operation to get up and running comes down to the inexperience at this level of AV8's management team. CT2 have a very experienced and successful team who have a great depth of knowledge of being a Tour Operator. They relied on the AV8 Team to pull it all together.
I've heard that the CAA CPG put a funding requirement on AV8 of £8M ( this for effectively one aircraft, althought he 767 ACMI lease would have to have been included). This is on top of CT2's ATOL Bond of circa £3M. The CAA's forumla is that the operation should be sufficiently funded to cater for three months of costs with no income. Now, because the CAA always apply the same formula, ( irrespective of charter or scheduled) they include in their costs the DOC's ( Direct Operating Costs) of flying the aircraft. If you are starting a scheduled airline, that makes sense, but with a charter airline, it could be argued that if the charterer doesn't pay, the the flight doen't operate, so the DOC's could be excluded from the calculation.
If AV8 had argued this, they might have dropped the funding requirement to a level CT2 could manage. This argument has won results in the past.
Barmy Army, I'm afraid that ultimately the blame for the failure of this operation to get up and running comes down to the inexperience at this level of AV8's management team. CT2 have a very experienced and successful team who have a great depth of knowledge of being a Tour Operator. They relied on the AV8 Team to pull it all together.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AV8 promlems
JMC MAN,
Why not stop talking "CRAP". MOD and his team did everything that was asked of them to get the airline up and runnoing. CT2's management team decided they would not/could not pay the bond for the AOC after everything else hasd been put in place. If you dont know the details then dont post, cos it only F*:ks people off. Signed one slightly pissed ex AV8 crew.
Things can only get better,
Why not stop talking "CRAP". MOD and his team did everything that was asked of them to get the airline up and runnoing. CT2's management team decided they would not/could not pay the bond for the AOC after everything else hasd been put in place. If you dont know the details then dont post, cos it only F*:ks people off. Signed one slightly pissed ex AV8 crew.
Things can only get better,
Nato35, you may be pissed off. However, if the above is true and amount asked for by the CAA was ridiculous and couldn't be argued against by the entire team (by which I mean MOD and the CT2 people), would you just say "yes" and stump up the cash?
The CT2 tour operating team have not got to where they are today by signing blank cheques, and I don't suppose they want to start now just for the sake of seeing their "own" airline get into the air. I can sympathise - this is not good from your point of view, but you have to give some credit to them for not being led astray by the whiff of Jet A1 as so many people have been in the past. Aviation can be a horribly expensive pastime if you're not careful.
The CT2 tour operating team have not got to where they are today by signing blank cheques, and I don't suppose they want to start now just for the sake of seeing their "own" airline get into the air. I can sympathise - this is not good from your point of view, but you have to give some credit to them for not being led astray by the whiff of Jet A1 as so many people have been in the past. Aviation can be a horribly expensive pastime if you're not careful.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NATO 35,
Here's a question for you then, if you think I'm talking "crap". Did the AV8 team present a project plan, with timings and costs to the CT2 board for the starting of an airline?
If so, what assumptions were made with respect to :-
1) Timing
2) costs
3) CPG Requirements.
Now if it is the case that the AV8 Management team presented a plan which accurately included all of the above , and the CT2 Board subsequently just bottled out, then I'll retract my statements above and apologise.
If however, the plan presented and the actual implementation started to diverge , particularly on items (2) ans (3) then I'm afraid what I said earlier applies.
Here's a question for you then, if you think I'm talking "crap". Did the AV8 team present a project plan, with timings and costs to the CT2 board for the starting of an airline?
If so, what assumptions were made with respect to :-
1) Timing
2) costs
3) CPG Requirements.
Now if it is the case that the AV8 Management team presented a plan which accurately included all of the above , and the CT2 Board subsequently just bottled out, then I'll retract my statements above and apologise.
If however, the plan presented and the actual implementation started to diverge , particularly on items (2) ans (3) then I'm afraid what I said earlier applies.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the jungle
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jmc-man flightrider
what would your thoughts be if the AV8 management had shown all the costs / budget / risks etc. to CT2 who then said the projection was affordable only to later find the money wasnt there ?
what would your thoughts be if the AV8 management had shown all the costs / budget / risks etc. to CT2 who then said the projection was affordable only to later find the money wasnt there ?
BOTFOJ - Not me....and not quite sure what you're getting at there by dredging up the annals of PPrune past.
If you're genuinely interested (i.e. instead of just an effort at mud-slinging), I guess the admin folk on the website could at least ascertain whether the originator of that thread's credentials are real. There is certainly enough info on his profile page to be able to take a reasoned view.
Monkey Lover - I would agree that, before even thinking about starting an airline, you need to have a clear view of how much you are going to need; and how much of that you are going to actually spend (as opposed to providing financial fitness for the CAA). If the project has been managed within both figures, then I fully take your point. I honestly don't know whether it has or has not and speculating on that at this point in time is of largely academic interest only.
If you're genuinely interested (i.e. instead of just an effort at mud-slinging), I guess the admin folk on the website could at least ascertain whether the originator of that thread's credentials are real. There is certainly enough info on his profile page to be able to take a reasoned view.
Monkey Lover - I would agree that, before even thinking about starting an airline, you need to have a clear view of how much you are going to need; and how much of that you are going to actually spend (as opposed to providing financial fitness for the CAA). If the project has been managed within both figures, then I fully take your point. I honestly don't know whether it has or has not and speculating on that at this point in time is of largely academic interest only.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: the Real World
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flightrider, checking your previous posts its highly likely we know each other... my point is that every time theres a rumour posted on PPRuNe, certain paranoid people squeal that it must be excel trying to bring down another company by posting on this website whereas in reality both EAAC and AV8 have been brought down by their own failings. This is clear when you read the postings from those on the inside, and are in possession of the FACTS. I was trying to show that people post about airlines in trouble all the time, and they're not ALL working for Phil Wyatt.
BOTFOJ, I fully understand your point but would suggest this is a message which needs to be communicated elsewhere and not necessarily or solely in my direction.
I'm now retiring bored from this discussion.
I'm now retiring bored from this discussion.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was interested to read about AV8TOR, having recently (Feb 26/Mar 4) flown on them to Lanzarote from MAN. I felt I was on thin ice from the get-go. The flight was identified solely as an Icelandair one (FI), yet, apart from its registration, there was no mention of Iceland among the plane's markings (however, the pilots' names were unmistakeably Icelandic). The in-flight magazine listed weekly tour packages/flights to Tenerife (from Newcastle, if memory serves) but none to Lanzarote, yet there I was, on my way to Arecife on the weekly Thursday run from MAN. Also included were details and prices of packages to Dubai and an announcement that AV8TOR operated one 767 and one 757. On the way down, the captain informed us that local time in Lanzarote was one hour different from that in MAN - wrong (the time's the same). Talking to a flight attendant, I found out that the 757 was not operational yet and that flights to Dubai had not started. On the plus side, the 767-300 looked to be in A1 shape. Still, all in all, I was quite relieved not to get stuck in Lanzarote as a result of the operator going belly-up and to get back to MAN on AV8TOR on the scheduled day, even if we were 2 hours late.
Rockhound
Rockhound
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: North of Watford
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think all the rather scurrilous opinions that have been aired on this subject particularly from JMC Man would be a lot more credible if based on FACTS . Not many people know what has gone on . A lot of hard work and expertise from MOD and his team made sure that the AOC as far as the SRG was concerned was in the bag. The management at the parent co might have some other agenda however . Listening to experts in their field is not one of them apparently. From all accounts MOD did an exemplary job in all that was required . So please in future get your facts right before slinging mud!
