Results of investigation of FR plane leaving taxiway: Nov 2002
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Results of investigation of FR plane leaving taxiway: Nov 2002
I normally avoid starting threads in this part of the forum since I'm not a pilot but I have to say this small editorial in the paper today so grabbed my attention I just couldn't resist it . Furthermore as one of the female persuasion I'm dangerously leaving myself open to the Captain Ed's of this forum who share similar views to him about those of the female persuasion who dare to intrude in the hallowed confines of the cockpit unless they are FA's. 
But hell here goes:
The story concerned an FR plane carrying 128 pax on November 20th, 2002. It was flown from Dublin, leaving at 10:10am, by its 21 year old male FO & after landing normally at Charleroi at 11:40am control was handed over to the 42 year old female captain. After leaving the runway the plane's nosewheel & right main landing gear prompted ended up in the grass. No-one was injured & the pax disembarked normally but the airport was closed for two hours after the incident.
An investigation was carried out by the AAIU; the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit after consultation with the Belgian authorities. The results were that the captain had not attained a safe taxi speed when she attempted to vacate the runway. "The late use of an inappropriate braking technique, that failed to achieve a safe taxi speed, led to the uncontrolled departure of the aircraft from the taxiway on to the grassy area", the investigation concluded.
Absolutely classic & since I travel frequently enough with FR it wouldn't exactly inspire me with confidence. Was this not a very basic error, can someone please explain to me how it could happen to someone at her level. I mean what does it say about the level of training at FR of people who have the fate of hundreds of peoples lives entrusted into their care & the fate of muti million pound aircraft.
I wonder what happened to the career of the lady captain in question, no doubt MOL bawled her out for one? I mean I've noticed the eh hard landings when travelling with FR but careering off the taxiway after leaving the runway, even that's a new one on me.
Coco
But hell here goes:
The story concerned an FR plane carrying 128 pax on November 20th, 2002. It was flown from Dublin, leaving at 10:10am, by its 21 year old male FO & after landing normally at Charleroi at 11:40am control was handed over to the 42 year old female captain. After leaving the runway the plane's nosewheel & right main landing gear prompted ended up in the grass. No-one was injured & the pax disembarked normally but the airport was closed for two hours after the incident.
An investigation was carried out by the AAIU; the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit after consultation with the Belgian authorities. The results were that the captain had not attained a safe taxi speed when she attempted to vacate the runway. "The late use of an inappropriate braking technique, that failed to achieve a safe taxi speed, led to the uncontrolled departure of the aircraft from the taxiway on to the grassy area", the investigation concluded.
Absolutely classic & since I travel frequently enough with FR it wouldn't exactly inspire me with confidence. Was this not a very basic error, can someone please explain to me how it could happen to someone at her level. I mean what does it say about the level of training at FR of people who have the fate of hundreds of peoples lives entrusted into their care & the fate of muti million pound aircraft.
I wonder what happened to the career of the lady captain in question, no doubt MOL bawled her out for one? I mean I've noticed the eh hard landings when travelling with FR but careering off the taxiway after leaving the runway, even that's a new one on me.
Coco
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I believe that the proper rules are that you are not allowed to taxi an aircraft faster that 30 knots. Although this aircraft was leaving the runway, the taxiways leading aircraft from the runway may not have been the wider type of taxiways for 'fast exit' from the runway. Not only this, but I have HEARD, and I say again, HEARD, that Ryanair and some other low cost carriers tell their pilots to taxi faster to cut fuel usage. And for those of you who say that taxiing faster uses up more fuel due to the increased speed, youre wrong!!!! Advance the power to a stronger position, then let the aircraft idle on power whilst the speed gradually slows, instead of keeping it at a constant rate. That is what I have heard though, so I dont want anyone saying im some Ryanair hater etc, although I am, it is only that which I have heard!!!!!
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Before various posters dig themselves into deeper holes than they are already, they might actually like to read the report before making further comment and personal judgements:
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/4757-0.pdf
NoD
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/4757-0.pdf
NoD
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I take it you are referring to me NoD, but why do you say I have dug myself a hole???? I have already said that it was just my opinion and I was only saying what I have heard, not what is fact. It may or may not be fact! I dont know, I just go by what commercial airline pilots tell me, and normally they tell the truth. (I hope!!)
By the way, the link doesnt seem to work on my computer.
By the way, the link doesnt seem to work on my computer.
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TAXI SPEED
No limt in figueres by law but the PIC has to choose a safe
taxi speed where the aircraft can be safe stopped at all times.
High speed taxiways are designed usualy for appx. 60 kts.
The "30 kts" or 20, 15,10 and whatever are number from the
operator.He instructs the crews to taxi the AC not faster
then that speed. If the pilot taxi`s faster then he violates the
company rules and set standart. The AOC is issued on the base
of the FOM and if any numbers are mentoined there then the
pilots better keep that speed because if they are faster then
there is a point to "hang" them and nail them down on this
exeedence. The topic is complexer as I am able to describe here
short before my departure. If You have more questions I come
back again.
By the way I know the Captain "CC" well from my days in FR
and the way the LCC is handling the crews and what they tell
them "off" the records.
NG
taxi speed where the aircraft can be safe stopped at all times.
High speed taxiways are designed usualy for appx. 60 kts.
The "30 kts" or 20, 15,10 and whatever are number from the
operator.He instructs the crews to taxi the AC not faster
then that speed. If the pilot taxi`s faster then he violates the
company rules and set standart. The AOC is issued on the base
of the FOM and if any numbers are mentoined there then the
pilots better keep that speed because if they are faster then
there is a point to "hang" them and nail them down on this
exeedence. The topic is complexer as I am able to describe here
short before my departure. If You have more questions I come
back again.
By the way I know the Captain "CC" well from my days in FR
and the way the LCC is handling the crews and what they tell
them "off" the records.
NG
Last edited by B737NG; 22nd Feb 2004 at 09:08.
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From this thread I have gathered that none of the respondants have ever been to or know nothing about the airport in question, Neither have they taxied an airplane. So please keep your ignorant comments to a minimum.
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Airport in Question
It was Charloi. To discuss the issue is one thing, to keep the
privacy of the people involved is another. Switch on the brain
first and then make an output. How about that ??
I taxi since 1996 when I got my command, the last plane I
taxied in was 30 Minutes ago an I took it over from the F/O
after he did the flight and proceedure is that the PIC taxi the
AC from the rollout to the gate. Anything else Rocco ???
NG
privacy of the people involved is another. Switch on the brain
first and then make an output. How about that ??
I taxi since 1996 when I got my command, the last plane I
taxied in was 30 Minutes ago an I took it over from the F/O
after he did the flight and proceedure is that the PIC taxi the
AC from the rollout to the gate. Anything else Rocco ???
NG
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Link works fine for me...
Anyone making any comments about taxi speed having anything to do with this incident I suggest you read the report. If you cannot make the link work, please read the URL and enage brain about getting onto the site. You obbiously need a PDF reader... It took me ~2mins to find the report given the thread's inital post to find it...
NoD
Anyone making any comments about taxi speed having anything to do with this incident I suggest you read the report. If you cannot make the link work, please read the URL and enage brain about getting onto the site. You obbiously need a PDF reader... It took me ~2mins to find the report given the thread's inital post to find it...
NoD
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Nigel - the link works fine but initially I was with the clan who doubted..... I navigated there via aaiu site and got the same blank page BUT since the aaiu warned it took 190 secs to download I went off, made a cuppa and came back to see the appropriate information thanks. So there you go lads, if you don't have broadband then be patient cos Nigel's dun ya proud.....
'snot in Gibberish though so some of ya may still be frustrated hehe!
'snot in Gibberish though so some of ya may still be frustrated hehe!
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I'm fed up with people pontificating about safe taxi speeds! It all depends on the circumstances pertaining at the time. For example, on clearing 26L at Lgw onto 26R/08L on a nice day, what's wrong with 30+ kts - after all, we do 160kts on it when it is in use as a runway? As for going round corners, 10kts is a good 'ballpark' speed, but not all corners are the same in terms of radius and surface conditions vary, as do traffic conditions etc.
My point is, don't sit in judgement unless you were there on the day!
Rant over - back to the Sunday papers.
Cheers,
mcdhu
My point is, don't sit in judgement unless you were there on the day!
Rant over - back to the Sunday papers.
Cheers,
mcdhu
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Yes I was having the same problems myself even though I've Acrobat Reader
Go onto site www.aaiu.ie & click on the link 'reports', you'll find the accident report listed there. As Commander Fowler says it does take a while for it to download, so be patient & keep oneself otherwise engaged, but atleast it downloads which I couldn't say for the link here.
Thanks Nigel
Coco
Go onto site www.aaiu.ie & click on the link 'reports', you'll find the accident report listed there. As Commander Fowler says it does take a while for it to download, so be patient & keep oneself otherwise engaged, but atleast it downloads which I couldn't say for the link here.
Thanks Nigel
Coco
Coconuts:
"I mean I've noticed the eh hard landings when travelling with FR......"
You freely admit that you are not a pilot so I think a little bit of education is in order here. A great mass of the travelling public still have this idea that a really smooth landing is the perfect end to a flight and a great indication of professionalism.
We all try to do a smooth landing when the runway is dry but it is much more important to put the aeroplane on the ground at the right spot and if the landing is a bit firm, then so be it. If you don't put it on the ground at the right spot it might prove difficult to stop. For every second a pilot holds off trying to do a greaser of a landing, about 500 ft of runway disappears behind him/her and this is not good!
Now we look at the case of a wet runway; we are all taught in this case to TRY to do a firm landing. This is in order for the wheels to make firm contact with the runway surface. Doing a smooth landing could allow a wedge of water to build up between the runway and the wheels (which have yet to turn) and this could result in aquaplaning which is not a lot of fun either!
So please bear in mind that smooth landings are not always desirable. I don't think Ryanair do any more firm landings than any other operator. Certainly if you were flying with me and I was landing on a critical runway then you would do well to bring a tube of TCP with you. The undercarriage is a damned sight stronger than you are!
"I mean I've noticed the eh hard landings when travelling with FR......"
You freely admit that you are not a pilot so I think a little bit of education is in order here. A great mass of the travelling public still have this idea that a really smooth landing is the perfect end to a flight and a great indication of professionalism.
We all try to do a smooth landing when the runway is dry but it is much more important to put the aeroplane on the ground at the right spot and if the landing is a bit firm, then so be it. If you don't put it on the ground at the right spot it might prove difficult to stop. For every second a pilot holds off trying to do a greaser of a landing, about 500 ft of runway disappears behind him/her and this is not good!
Now we look at the case of a wet runway; we are all taught in this case to TRY to do a firm landing. This is in order for the wheels to make firm contact with the runway surface. Doing a smooth landing could allow a wedge of water to build up between the runway and the wheels (which have yet to turn) and this could result in aquaplaning which is not a lot of fun either!
So please bear in mind that smooth landings are not always desirable. I don't think Ryanair do any more firm landings than any other operator. Certainly if you were flying with me and I was landing on a critical runway then you would do well to bring a tube of TCP with you. The undercarriage is a damned sight stronger than you are!
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A great mass of the travelling public still have this idea that a really smooth landing is the perfect end to a flight and a great indication of professionalism.
What can you expect anyway, I was jumpseating on a Boeing 737 once, when landing the FO put the plane down so gently the captain remarked
"I thought we were still on air"
Gave me a giggle anyway.
Ah no seriously I found that very informative, even though I was aware a soft landing doesn't always constitute a good landing & vice versa its good to learn the technicalities of it, FR certainly do some false teeth knocker outers though.
I still wonder about some of the rumours I've heard about FR (this incident hasn't helped) though or are they just a case of sour grapes with no basis. Many here are aware of my admiration for MOL & FR but if I thought they were cutting corners on safety & training of their pilots my attitude might change as would my decision to fly with them. Saving a few quid ain't worth risking my life for. I am not interested in unprovable, unbackable innuendo though.
Regards
Coco
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I hate to spoil a good story for the scaremongerers out there but have been in Ryanair five years and have never been told or had pressure to taxi fast.
Its very simple and in black and white: 30kts straight line and 10kts round corners and these are maximums.
We always hear the bad never the good well just for once lets have a bit of good.
The Chief Pilot has just sent a memo out congratulating the crews. He had just received the track keeping stats from Manchester Airport for January and we had achieved 100% accuracy on all SIDs. Even more impressive most of those flights were on the -200. I should know I used to fly it.
Its very simple and in black and white: 30kts straight line and 10kts round corners and these are maximums.
We always hear the bad never the good well just for once lets have a bit of good.
The Chief Pilot has just sent a memo out congratulating the crews. He had just received the track keeping stats from Manchester Airport for January and we had achieved 100% accuracy on all SIDs. Even more impressive most of those flights were on the -200. I should know I used to fly it.
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As previously stated, this was an accident not related to a taxying speed.
The Captain appears not to have complied with the braking guidance/instruction contained in the Boeing Manual.
Bet MOL wasn't pleased ... or maybe he was hoping for an insurance write off to help retire another -200 ??
The Captain appears not to have complied with the braking guidance/instruction contained in the Boeing Manual.
Bet MOL wasn't pleased ... or maybe he was hoping for an insurance write off to help retire another -200 ??
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As previously stated, this was an accident not related to a taxying speed
Aircraft Accident An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage
NoD
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I agree NoD ... just an incident ... so I wonder why the full formal report ??
Or maybe they don't get much practice at doing them in Ireland (which is no bad thing !!) and take the chance while they can ??
Or maybe they don't get much practice at doing them in Ireland (which is no bad thing !!) and take the chance while they can ??
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I agree NoD ... just an incident ... so I wonder why the full formal report ??
Before anyone jumps up and down, I hasten to add the VS A340, unlike the other 2, seems to have had nil crew "factors" (just usual BAA complete ignorance of its responsibilities where they don't involve shops).
NoD