bmi mass exodus
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Well, actually, I would quite like no nightstops. I was a bit miffed when I had to do three nights away after New Year for a total of 7 hours flying.
That's the rub, isn't it? Really preferences ought to work by now - and yet somehow they don't seem to make it from the computer onto the rosters at times .....
Incidentally, nightstops are expensive. If a company is to learn lessons from LoCo's, it needs to see how to avoid them where possible. Airlines don't run so that pilots can have fun - they run to make money. If you made hay while the sun shone in WAW and MUN - bully for you! - but as with any flying job, the nature changes over time. Don't think it is much better anywhere else - I'm sure you could collect a fair number of whinges from other airlines if you bothered to ask .....
That's the rub, isn't it? Really preferences ought to work by now - and yet somehow they don't seem to make it from the computer onto the rosters at times .....
Incidentally, nightstops are expensive. If a company is to learn lessons from LoCo's, it needs to see how to avoid them where possible. Airlines don't run so that pilots can have fun - they run to make money. If you made hay while the sun shone in WAW and MUN - bully for you! - but as with any flying job, the nature changes over time. Don't think it is much better anywhere else - I'm sure you could collect a fair number of whinges from other airlines if you bothered to ask .....
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young paul,
Points noted. How long have we been asking for some sort of bid line?? but no, they don't care if it makes our life better. I think you missed the jist of my original post, I am suggesting that the job has changed for those of us that liked to finish the day somewhere else and as a reult, lots of people are looking to leave. Very glad that no nightstopping is improving your lifestyle.
Also IMHO killing the nightstop has also killed the prospect of a return in our business class passengers (which is why we had them).
Enjoy your small LOCO carrier.
Points noted. How long have we been asking for some sort of bid line?? but no, they don't care if it makes our life better. I think you missed the jist of my original post, I am suggesting that the job has changed for those of us that liked to finish the day somewhere else and as a reult, lots of people are looking to leave. Very glad that no nightstopping is improving your lifestyle.
Also IMHO killing the nightstop has also killed the prospect of a return in our business class passengers (which is why we had them).
Enjoy your small LOCO carrier.
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Mm, I suspect that the shorthaul business-class traveller is not going to return - there's been too much of a change in the industry. The number of people in front of the curtain isn't just a bmi phenomenon - and frankly, in economic terms, can you really justify the sort of price that people were paying to travel in club shorthaul in this day and age? £500+ return to Scotland from London?
Ironically, the top fare for the "frilly" airlines is probably competitive with that of the LoCo's now - which may be the way forward - when people realise that if they travel with a day's notice, they will probably be better off going with bmi or BA than with the LoCo's. I hear that the LoCo's have seen falling yield, with rising load factors for the frillies - I suspect that this is the effect of people looking again at frillies to get ticket prices.
I know that for people who like NS's, things aren't as nice. However, let's suggest some hypothetical figures for a route - these are made up, they aren't based on any documented numbers. Nightstop cost is £70 in hotel bill and allowances per person (note that these are not BA figures, by any means!). Six crew in hotel for lates; six crew in hotel for earlies. Probably additional costs associated with additional engineering and handling contract. You need an extra £420 income over expenditure on the first and last flights just to pay for the nightstop! You can see from this (I hope) why LoCo's regarded having aircraft away from base for the night as a "frill" - how many extra seats sold would that constitute for a LoCo? 10, maybe?
Ironically, the top fare for the "frilly" airlines is probably competitive with that of the LoCo's now - which may be the way forward - when people realise that if they travel with a day's notice, they will probably be better off going with bmi or BA than with the LoCo's. I hear that the LoCo's have seen falling yield, with rising load factors for the frillies - I suspect that this is the effect of people looking again at frillies to get ticket prices.
I know that for people who like NS's, things aren't as nice. However, let's suggest some hypothetical figures for a route - these are made up, they aren't based on any documented numbers. Nightstop cost is £70 in hotel bill and allowances per person (note that these are not BA figures, by any means!). Six crew in hotel for lates; six crew in hotel for earlies. Probably additional costs associated with additional engineering and handling contract. You need an extra £420 income over expenditure on the first and last flights just to pay for the nightstop! You can see from this (I hope) why LoCo's regarded having aircraft away from base for the night as a "frill" - how many extra seats sold would that constitute for a LoCo? 10, maybe?
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As shafted@work mentions, the business passenger has been killed off by getting rid of the nightstops. I'm sure £420 is a very small price to pay to get some of those passengers back. You wouldn't need to sell many more tickets to cover that cost. Plus, I'd bet my Granny that bmi don't spend anything like £70 on a hotel room. Certainly not the hotels I've ever had to stay in.
Keyboard Flier:
Yes, I have and (surprise, surprise) it got me nowhere. Talking to management gets you a bad name and a note in your training file to have your chops busted next time you go in the sim. That is the problem with bmi - you can't talk to anyone. I had a serious issue to raise recently & e-mailed several managers about it. Not one replied. Sadly, most (if not all) the pilot management are puppets on Bishop's string - they just do what they're told for the least amount of money. If they don't, he'll find someone else who will.
The line of communication is appaling in both directions. Before ARs attempt at a morale-booster a couple of weeks ago, I can't remember the last time we heard from ANY manager with an update of what's going on in the company, what the plans are, how we're doing, etc. That's half the problem in bmi - it's like working blindfolded. "Just keep working and we'll tell you when you can stop. In the meantime, you won't hear from us."
Computer rostering - another joke. At least AR has admitted wasting £5m on it. A good mate of mine works for one of the biggest IT companies around and, having spoken to him about the rostering system in bmi, (once he stopped laughing) I asked how much his company would charge to go to Donington, throw out all the computers they've got up there and implement a rostering system to the point that it's fully functional. He reckoned about £1m!
The lack of productivity is becoming ridiculous. I spoke to an Airbus F/O the other day who reckoned that he did so much sitting around in the crew room last week that, in between sectors, he could have taken the Paddington Express into town, seen a West End show, and returned to LHR in time to do his next flight. Every day.
There will be a mass exodus. As soon as Virgin get the nod from the EU for their Sydney route, that'll be it. I know of a lot of F/Os who have applied to them & they'll all get in. Several will go to Easy and when BA start recruiting again, well.......
It is such a shame because the people in bmi are fantastic and know how to have a really good time despite the company's best efforts to stop them. bmi could really stand out if the management wasn't based around penny-pinching, secret-keeping, back-stabbing and brown-nosing.
Keyboard Flier:
Instead of moaning have you tried talking to the ones that matter.
The line of communication is appaling in both directions. Before ARs attempt at a morale-booster a couple of weeks ago, I can't remember the last time we heard from ANY manager with an update of what's going on in the company, what the plans are, how we're doing, etc. That's half the problem in bmi - it's like working blindfolded. "Just keep working and we'll tell you when you can stop. In the meantime, you won't hear from us."
Computer rostering - another joke. At least AR has admitted wasting £5m on it. A good mate of mine works for one of the biggest IT companies around and, having spoken to him about the rostering system in bmi, (once he stopped laughing) I asked how much his company would charge to go to Donington, throw out all the computers they've got up there and implement a rostering system to the point that it's fully functional. He reckoned about £1m!
The lack of productivity is becoming ridiculous. I spoke to an Airbus F/O the other day who reckoned that he did so much sitting around in the crew room last week that, in between sectors, he could have taken the Paddington Express into town, seen a West End show, and returned to LHR in time to do his next flight. Every day.
There will be a mass exodus. As soon as Virgin get the nod from the EU for their Sydney route, that'll be it. I know of a lot of F/Os who have applied to them & they'll all get in. Several will go to Easy and when BA start recruiting again, well.......
It is such a shame because the people in bmi are fantastic and know how to have a really good time despite the company's best efforts to stop them. bmi could really stand out if the management wasn't based around penny-pinching, secret-keeping, back-stabbing and brown-nosing.
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I wouldnt normally pass comment in a thread like this, especially on an airline i dont work for, but as a bog standard line captain working for one of the low cost boys I do think bmi has got an identity problem.
Its certainly not a British Airways and its definately not a LoCo and unfortunately ay the mo there doesnt seem a market for something in the middle. BMI Baby is obviously an attempt to tap into the latter but is that an indication the rest isnt working.
It reads to me that until your management decides what it wants the business to be, there eye is definately not where you guys want it to be ie everything in this thread.
Its just my opinion as an outsider looking in
Its certainly not a British Airways and its definately not a LoCo and unfortunately ay the mo there doesnt seem a market for something in the middle. BMI Baby is obviously an attempt to tap into the latter but is that an indication the rest isnt working.
It reads to me that until your management decides what it wants the business to be, there eye is definately not where you guys want it to be ie everything in this thread.
Its just my opinion as an outsider looking in
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could have seen a couple of shows myself this week. Pehaps we should make the effort to go and then send the programs to the hall with a letter of thanks!! was thinking of getting a part time job in the terminal myself!!
Remember the 1500 jobs to be lost from ground staff??? There is an advert in Skyport looking for more?!?!
Probably would loose about that many if we merged though.
how odd...
Remember the 1500 jobs to be lost from ground staff??? There is an advert in Skyport looking for more?!?!
Probably would loose about that many if we merged though.
how odd...
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There will be no 'merger' with Virgin. All Virgin is interested in from BMI is your slots at Heathrow; Virgin is not even remotely interested in taking on a full-service shorthaul airline. Any talk of it being 'a good fit' is wishful thinking; as BA's experience has consistently shown, it's difficult to make money out of shorthaul but longhaul is a great deal easier (though not without its moments!). Virgin gets its connecting passengers quite successfully already, without owning the airlines they connect on.
The suggestions of the Virgin/BMI get-together being a merger of equals were smoke-and-mirrors from the BMI side. In reality, it would have been a takeover by Virgin with the sole aim of realising slots for longhaul expansion. The rest of the airline (baby excepted) would probably have been sacrificed at the altar of full-service shorthaul and left to die an agonisingly slow death.
All your problems notwithstanding, you're better off as you are. At least your future is in your own hands. I hope you manage to make it work.
The suggestions of the Virgin/BMI get-together being a merger of equals were smoke-and-mirrors from the BMI side. In reality, it would have been a takeover by Virgin with the sole aim of realising slots for longhaul expansion. The rest of the airline (baby excepted) would probably have been sacrificed at the altar of full-service shorthaul and left to die an agonisingly slow death.
All your problems notwithstanding, you're better off as you are. At least your future is in your own hands. I hope you manage to make it work.
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.....you're better off as you are.....
That statement raises the most interesting possibility for the future.............takeover, sellout, merger, whatever.
The stark fact is that bmi would'nt be anything more than the tin-pot tiddler it was twenty years ago without one Golden Egg ---- Heathrow slots.
Any predator lucky enough to achieve the kill will strip the tasty flesh of Heathrow slots from the carcass and leave the remainder to rot.
Forget nightstops, rostering, "mushroom" culture, appalling management, appalling man management.
Instead, ask if you should be getting out before you become just another dead part of a dismembered, rotting, discarded carcass.
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Merger
All Virgin is interested in from BMI is your slots at Heathrow.........The suggestions of the Virgin/BMI get-together being a merger of equals were smoke-and-mirrors from the BMI side.
Any idea when the pool at VS is going to start being emptied? Can't wait!!!
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Anthony, I can't make any predictions about what will happen to the company without Virgin! All I can say is that Virgin would not have been the saviour so many were hoping for - Virgin would have done exactly what you suggest: asset strip BMI.
I don't see anyone else lining up to take on BMI at the moment (though BMI Baby must be ripe for a sale), so I would hope that you have some time to try and sort the company out. Otherwise the future must be somewhat clouded, IMHO.
I don't see anyone else lining up to take on BMI at the moment (though BMI Baby must be ripe for a sale), so I would hope that you have some time to try and sort the company out. Otherwise the future must be somewhat clouded, IMHO.
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baby in black?
bmibaby bookings in January reached record levels with almost half a million people booking to travel on its services.
January sales on bmibaby.com and via the airline's call centre smashed all records when more seats were sold than any other month in the airline's two year history.
Bookings increased by a massive 25 per cent on January 2003 with the entire network performing better.
Over 90 per cent of bookings were made using the airline's website.
bmibaby announced its summer schedule from Teesside Airport, featuring over 40 flights a week to Alicante, Belfast (International), Jersey, Malaga, Nice, Palma and Prague. Ten per cent of the summer capacity was sold in a single weekend.
bmibaby announced the launch of a new service between Manchester and Knock on 28 March, taking the number of routes from Manchester to 12.
January sales on bmibaby.com and via the airline's call centre smashed all records when more seats were sold than any other month in the airline's two year history.
Bookings increased by a massive 25 per cent on January 2003 with the entire network performing better.
Over 90 per cent of bookings were made using the airline's website.
bmibaby announced its summer schedule from Teesside Airport, featuring over 40 flights a week to Alicante, Belfast (International), Jersey, Malaga, Nice, Palma and Prague. Ten per cent of the summer capacity was sold in a single weekend.
bmibaby announced the launch of a new service between Manchester and Knock on 28 March, taking the number of routes from Manchester to 12.
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Why do you think that bmi pilots would have a problem with LHR slots being used for longhaul? Think for a minute: 5 crews needed per shorthaul aircraft; 10 crews needed per longhaul aircraft. Shorthaul aircraft uses about 10 slots per day; longhaul uses 2. So if bmi LHR supports 20 shorthaul aircraft (let's say 200 pilots), it could support 100 longhaul aircraft. That's about 2000 pilots. Yes, that's right - multiply the number of pilots required by 10!
Almost regardless of the seniority deal that is achieved, anybody in the combined airline will do incredibly well out of it. An "asset strip" would not be the nasty sort of thing you see in shorthaul takeovers - it would be fantastic! Most bmi pilots would love to see this happen - in the interim you get the best of both worlds (cos the 100 longhaul aircraft ain't going to happen overnight - or even in a decade, I would think!) - and people will be sufficiently senior to bid for what they want within a few years.
Of course the slots at LHR are the most valuable asset - of course they would be used as such in the event of a merger/takeover. However, you are stupid if you think that the pilots would lose out as a result. bmi gets unrestricted longhaul with its slots. Virgin gets control of 19% of LHR slots. The only thing that would lose out would be .... BA! - who would find themselves with a competitor who has the ability to take them on in any longhaul market they care to.
Almost regardless of the seniority deal that is achieved, anybody in the combined airline will do incredibly well out of it. An "asset strip" would not be the nasty sort of thing you see in shorthaul takeovers - it would be fantastic! Most bmi pilots would love to see this happen - in the interim you get the best of both worlds (cos the 100 longhaul aircraft ain't going to happen overnight - or even in a decade, I would think!) - and people will be sufficiently senior to bid for what they want within a few years.
Of course the slots at LHR are the most valuable asset - of course they would be used as such in the event of a merger/takeover. However, you are stupid if you think that the pilots would lose out as a result. bmi gets unrestricted longhaul with its slots. Virgin gets control of 19% of LHR slots. The only thing that would lose out would be .... BA! - who would find themselves with a competitor who has the ability to take them on in any longhaul market they care to.
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At BA Rod has said at board level that bmi/Virgin merger would be devastating.
It is possible to conclude how bad morale is: most people think that a merger/buyout is likely, but they still are looking to leave 'cause they just can't handle it anymore.
It is possible to conclude how bad morale is: most people think that a merger/buyout is likely, but they still are looking to leave 'cause they just can't handle it anymore.
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BMI pilots would have a problem with a Virgin takeover because there wouldn't be jobs for most of them! Virgin would not suddenly buy tens of longhaul aircraft to absorb the BMI crews while reducing the shorthaul fleet. There would be some who would be absorbed, but not many I fear.
I think the scenario would be far more like this: take as many LHR slots as Virgin needs to effect its near-term plans. Sell those slots that can't be useful in the longhaul picture. Sell most of BMI's physical assets. Retain some shorthaul aircraft, crews and slots to cover those routes which have a large percentage of Virgin transfer passengers and are profitable - if there are any that fit this description. Examine (and probably reject) the possibility of turning the rump of BMI into a low-cost operation, possible in concert with Virgin Express (BMI Baby is unlikely to be part of any merger/takeover and will be sold off in its own right). Anything remaining would be disposed of - aircraft, leases, slots (with a caveat that they must be returned if Virgin needs them) and, most significantly, PEOPLE. Virgin is not a charity; it's a very hard-nosed commercial operation. It only wants BMI for what it can use to make a profit - and your workforce would, for the most part, be disposable.
This is a 'worst case' scenario, but I think it's not too far from what was being considered. That's why I think you should be glad it didn't happen!
I think the scenario would be far more like this: take as many LHR slots as Virgin needs to effect its near-term plans. Sell those slots that can't be useful in the longhaul picture. Sell most of BMI's physical assets. Retain some shorthaul aircraft, crews and slots to cover those routes which have a large percentage of Virgin transfer passengers and are profitable - if there are any that fit this description. Examine (and probably reject) the possibility of turning the rump of BMI into a low-cost operation, possible in concert with Virgin Express (BMI Baby is unlikely to be part of any merger/takeover and will be sold off in its own right). Anything remaining would be disposed of - aircraft, leases, slots (with a caveat that they must be returned if Virgin needs them) and, most significantly, PEOPLE. Virgin is not a charity; it's a very hard-nosed commercial operation. It only wants BMI for what it can use to make a profit - and your workforce would, for the most part, be disposable.
This is a 'worst case' scenario, but I think it's not too far from what was being considered. That's why I think you should be glad it didn't happen!
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Nightstops
Came upon your thread by accident. I'm a controller. Thought the nightstop mentality went out with flight engineers and white gloves. Anyway it's been nice talking to you...should have a few extra slots to play with this summer. I control "big sky", and my sky is full of LoCos that don't nightstop. The modern punter just logs on to his/her computer and presses "cheapest".....and Baby plus nightstops just won't compete.
The Bishop was 63 recently, he has said that he doesn't want to run his airline businesses until he dies. I believe he will divest himself of them in bits, sooner rather than later, all he wants is the money to enjoy the fruits of his labours. The continuation of business is of little concern to him, I believe that it only affects him when it affects the selling price.
Cynical? yes. His viewpoint? unfortunately, probably.
Cynical? yes. His viewpoint? unfortunately, probably.
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Well, at the end of the day, somebody will be operating those slots. And bmi crews operate more of them for less money more effectively than most other operators at LHR. So would you kill a goose to get the golden eggs?
Why would Virgin sell slots when it might want them in the future for a HUGE longhaul operation, and they are (in broad terms) covering their costs at the moment? Makes more business sense to use them as and when - change would have to be gradual - you can't start 20 longhaul routes overnight. And even if you could, to rule out the possibility of starting 20 more next year would be crazy .....
Why would Virgin sell slots when it might want them in the future for a HUGE longhaul operation, and they are (in broad terms) covering their costs at the moment? Makes more business sense to use them as and when - change would have to be gradual - you can't start 20 longhaul routes overnight. And even if you could, to rule out the possibility of starting 20 more next year would be crazy .....
I think the general feeling in bmi is that something has to change in a pretty big way for there to be a future for the airline so lets get on with it as soon as possible. People have lost faith in the management of the company and I would for rather take my chances with new owners rather than carry on as we are.
Last edited by Max Angle; 16th Feb 2004 at 01:00.