Military "Escorts"
Pegase Driver
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Latvia calling, good example, but wrong facts :
I was partially involved in the ICAO investigation after the KAL shootdown at Sakhalin and the pilot was not " trigger happy " nor stupid . In every Modern State, and even more in the Soviet Union at the time , orders to shoot down come from someone very senior in the ground. It is not the fighter pilot prerogative... In that perticular case the KAL747 was mistaken for a RC135 ( which was in the area as well at the time ) and the first interception failed when the 747 overflew Kamchatka, but more military ( read US) tragets were in the Okhotsk sea at the time, and when a target overflew Sakhalin and headed for a large naval base , it was intercepted a second time, the Soviet fighter was low of fuel ( it is not easy to intercept an aircrfat doing bearly 500 Kts ) came from below, saw the western shape of a Boeing ( a 707 and 747 seen from below are looking very similar , especially at night, ) passed that on, was ordered to fire tracers first , made calls on his guard frequency but was only equiped in UHF , but the 747 continued its course and was about to leave soviet airspace again , so he was ordered to shoot with missiles at the target.
The order came from a rather junior officer ( a colonel if my memory is correct, as the region“s general normally authorised to give the order to shoot was not reachable . They both were court martialled and served jail sentences later I believe. .
If the Soviet pilot had done a proper interception as in ICAO textbook, or having had the chance to practice in real time and see a 747 from close by, afew hundred people will probably still be alive today.
For those interested the full report is available from ICAO ( one of the few investigations done by them )
Let military pilots train on interceptions. The more they train the best chances we will have that they never shoot at the wrong aircraft.
I was partially involved in the ICAO investigation after the KAL shootdown at Sakhalin and the pilot was not " trigger happy " nor stupid . In every Modern State, and even more in the Soviet Union at the time , orders to shoot down come from someone very senior in the ground. It is not the fighter pilot prerogative... In that perticular case the KAL747 was mistaken for a RC135 ( which was in the area as well at the time ) and the first interception failed when the 747 overflew Kamchatka, but more military ( read US) tragets were in the Okhotsk sea at the time, and when a target overflew Sakhalin and headed for a large naval base , it was intercepted a second time, the Soviet fighter was low of fuel ( it is not easy to intercept an aircrfat doing bearly 500 Kts ) came from below, saw the western shape of a Boeing ( a 707 and 747 seen from below are looking very similar , especially at night, ) passed that on, was ordered to fire tracers first , made calls on his guard frequency but was only equiped in UHF , but the 747 continued its course and was about to leave soviet airspace again , so he was ordered to shoot with missiles at the target.
The order came from a rather junior officer ( a colonel if my memory is correct, as the region“s general normally authorised to give the order to shoot was not reachable . They both were court martialled and served jail sentences later I believe. .
If the Soviet pilot had done a proper interception as in ICAO textbook, or having had the chance to practice in real time and see a 747 from close by, afew hundred people will probably still be alive today.
For those interested the full report is available from ICAO ( one of the few investigations done by them )
Let military pilots train on interceptions. The more they train the best chances we will have that they never shoot at the wrong aircraft.
Mid Air by Escort won't be First
James Gilbert in The World's Worst Aircraft gives a chapter to between WWI and WWII when the Russians designed what was then the world's largest aircraft, so large that it contained a printing press and a cinema.
The first public flight was a festive occasion with several family members embarked and a fighter escort laid on. One escort pilot got a bit bored following his charge about and hit upon the idea of a barrel roll which resulted in the CCCP's worst air disaster for many a year. The escort pilot's surname entered the Russian vocabulary as a synonym for selfish, impulsive action.
Can't find the book and can't recall the name of the a/c or pilot.
The first public flight was a festive occasion with several family members embarked and a fighter escort laid on. One escort pilot got a bit bored following his charge about and hit upon the idea of a barrel roll which resulted in the CCCP's worst air disaster for many a year. The escort pilot's surname entered the Russian vocabulary as a synonym for selfish, impulsive action.
Can't find the book and can't recall the name of the a/c or pilot.
The big airplane was an ANT-20, called the "Maxim Gorkii."
It was built as a propaganda machine by the Soviet government. It had eight engines, three tractor units fitted conventionally on each wing, and a tractor/pusher tandem arrangement on the cabin roof. The airplane carried a crew of twenty and up to fifty passengers. It also had an onboard kitchen, photo lab, printing press, radio studio and a cinema.
It crashed in May of 1935 when it was hit by one of its fighter escorts who attempted a loop around one of the aircraft's wings.
The fighter pilot's name was Nikolai Blagin. His name, as RBF says, has entered the Russian vocabulary as synonymous for
-up.
It was built as a propaganda machine by the Soviet government. It had eight engines, three tractor units fitted conventionally on each wing, and a tractor/pusher tandem arrangement on the cabin roof. The airplane carried a crew of twenty and up to fifty passengers. It also had an onboard kitchen, photo lab, printing press, radio studio and a cinema.
It crashed in May of 1935 when it was hit by one of its fighter escorts who attempted a loop around one of the aircraft's wings.
The fighter pilot's name was Nikolai Blagin. His name, as RBF says, has entered the Russian vocabulary as synonymous for
-up.
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Who will be the first US/UK/French Nikolai Blagin?
US:......? Could have been Dubya, but he is no more a reserve pilot.....
UK: Up to you distinguished Brits, to find the right name.
France: I know him, but the name is kept secret for the moment.
UK: Up to you distinguished Brits, to find the right name.
France: I know him, but the name is kept secret for the moment.
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Grandpa
What is the actual purpose of these escorts? The only thing they can do is blow the plane out of the sky. They obviously can't interfere with what is going on inside of the commercial airliner !!!
I pray to god there never comes a day when these "escorts" have to unleash the power they are equipped with.. Most people / passengers assume or think having a military escort improves safety. It's just the opposite. I pity the poor pilot who has to push the button killing 400+ people simultaneously.
Newark
I pray to god there never comes a day when these "escorts" have to unleash the power they are equipped with.. Most people / passengers assume or think having a military escort improves safety. It's just the opposite. I pity the poor pilot who has to push the button killing 400+ people simultaneously.
Newark
Only half a speed-brake
pigboat says: The big airplane was an ANT-20, called the "Maxim Gorkii."
me says: RIP for the second (and last) XB-70 built.
LatviaCalling: In case you have roots in Latvia, you really should know better than to charge an individual. I'm sure you do remember what it WAS like before '89.
edited for typos...
me says: RIP for the second (and last) XB-70 built.
LatviaCalling: In case you have roots in Latvia, you really should know better than to charge an individual. I'm sure you do remember what it WAS like before '89.
edited for typos...
Last edited by FlightDetent; 1st Feb 2004 at 11:34.
C'a ne sera pas une blague!
Grandpa and Pigboat,
Couldn't resist the Russo-French pun
Couldn't resist the Russo-French pun
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newarksmells,
I agree.
I also agree that the crew that has to destroy a full passenger jet would feel very bad about it; however, perhaps you would agree that would be a better outcome than a repeat of 9/11.
There is also much to be gained in having human eyes close to a suspect jet. Is the jet what the flightplan says it is? Is it possible with a visible show of force to change the intention of a hijacker?
The bottom line is that since 9/11 the terrorist has had access to a very cheap weapon of mass destruction and until we can find a better way to stop him we have to do everything else we can.
I'm afraid we all have to live with that - or die.
I agree.
I also agree that the crew that has to destroy a full passenger jet would feel very bad about it; however, perhaps you would agree that would be a better outcome than a repeat of 9/11.
There is also much to be gained in having human eyes close to a suspect jet. Is the jet what the flightplan says it is? Is it possible with a visible show of force to change the intention of a hijacker?
The bottom line is that since 9/11 the terrorist has had access to a very cheap weapon of mass destruction and until we can find a better way to stop him we have to do everything else we can.
I'm afraid we all have to live with that - or die.
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300! 300! 300 only?
Hey Newmark!
Have you been in Air-Force?
Just heared that not long ago, about what turns in jet fighter pilot's head when he is ordered to hit a commercial plane with 300 onboard:
"Don't worry, he is prepared. Maybe he is the same guy who was trained to kill 5 000 000 human beings with one nuclear bomb!"
When I had my training (and believe me it was YEARS ago!) I was confronted with this new word "megadead"........
Have you been in Air-Force?
Just heared that not long ago, about what turns in jet fighter pilot's head when he is ordered to hit a commercial plane with 300 onboard:
"Don't worry, he is prepared. Maybe he is the same guy who was trained to kill 5 000 000 human beings with one nuclear bomb!"
When I had my training (and believe me it was YEARS ago!) I was confronted with this new word "megadead"........
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I thought that the whole intercept thingy was ment so that I could take awesome pictures. 
But why should a fighter be closer then the standard 1.000 FT to observe who we are or what we are doing. This way safety is not an issue. That way wannabe hijackers or other bad people on board wouldn't know if we are on to them and in the worst case start a very slow descend to a (military)apt.
Then again I've been known to have more stupid thoughts...
But why should a fighter be closer then the standard 1.000 FT to observe who we are or what we are doing. This way safety is not an issue. That way wannabe hijackers or other bad people on board wouldn't know if we are on to them and in the worst case start a very slow descend to a (military)apt.
Then again I've been known to have more stupid thoughts...
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Talking about awsome pictures, I came over this at work the other day, it was taken by a Norwegian F-16 pilot in the mid 1980's when they joined up in a formation with a Scandinavian DC9'er enroute from Tromsų (ENTC) to Bodų (ENBO). The F16 pilots recognized the voice from a former colleague as the captain of the DC9'er, and decided to escort him back to Bodų.
More than just an ATCO
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The reason flights have been intercepted, in the Maastricht airspace at leasr, has been due to lack of R/T contact. From memory, in the last year 2 actual intercepts and a number abandoned ( too great a distance involved, or R/T contact re-established. )
Post 9/11 we are required to inform the military of any aircraft in radio failure, this info is passed to air defence who make the decision to intercept or not.
The reason that the fighters get in so close is to observe if there is activity on the flight deck. In the past we had two occasions when there was none observed, the Lear {Snoopy?) which eventually crashed off Iceland when presumably the fuel ran out, and the East German fighter whose pilot had ejected over East Germany but whose fighter almost reached the Belgian French border before crashing, killing one on the ground. In niether case was there any question of the interceptors firing.
If you fly through busy airspace, and either the frequency seems quiet, or you have not received any atc instructions for some ten minutes, try giving a call for a frequency check - sometimes we forget to transfer youand you are now in another unit's airspace, you may even be on the wrong frequency. It is a lot less work for us on the ground to answer a simple question than to vector, climb or descend conflicting traffic and instigate the interception - and probably a lot less work for you explaining why we have lodged a report on you for not monitoring the frequency
Lon More,
Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger
Post 9/11 we are required to inform the military of any aircraft in radio failure, this info is passed to air defence who make the decision to intercept or not.
The reason that the fighters get in so close is to observe if there is activity on the flight deck. In the past we had two occasions when there was none observed, the Lear {Snoopy?) which eventually crashed off Iceland when presumably the fuel ran out, and the East German fighter whose pilot had ejected over East Germany but whose fighter almost reached the Belgian French border before crashing, killing one on the ground. In niether case was there any question of the interceptors firing.
If you fly through busy airspace, and either the frequency seems quiet, or you have not received any atc instructions for some ten minutes, try giving a call for a frequency check - sometimes we forget to transfer youand you are now in another unit's airspace, you may even be on the wrong frequency. It is a lot less work for us on the ground to answer a simple question than to vector, climb or descend conflicting traffic and instigate the interception - and probably a lot less work for you explaining why we have lodged a report on you for not monitoring the frequency
Lon More,
Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger
