Military "Escorts"
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Has it ever occured to you guys that intercepting aircraft is THEIR JOB?!?!?
If our terrorist mateys had not chosen to use airliners as manned missiles then maybe these measures would not be required.
If our terrorist mateys had not chosen to use airliners as manned missiles then maybe these measures would not be required.
Taikonaut-since numerous passengers would have seen it, you might have announced over the pa that so-and-so nation's Air Force/Navy jet, flown by a very arrogant, pompous pilot, made an unnecessary maneuver over the top of your plane, and suggested that they all contact their Foreign Office/State Dept later.
Maybe they should have been told that it was a very safe maneuver, no matter how accurate.
Maybe they should have been told that it was a very safe maneuver, no matter how accurate.
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It must be evident by now that anybody who gets into an airliner is subject to a great deal of security screening and that counter terrorist measures include the interception of civil aircraft by military fighters.
So live with it civil pilots just like the military have to live with hours of QRA and your passengers have to live with extra security at airports.
This is all part of the price we pay to preserve our freedom and you had better get used to it.
If, on the other hand, you feel someone has overstepped the mark by all means complain but to the relevant authority, not here.
So live with it civil pilots just like the military have to live with hours of QRA and your passengers have to live with extra security at airports.
This is all part of the price we pay to preserve our freedom and you had better get used to it.
If, on the other hand, you feel someone has overstepped the mark by all means complain but to the relevant authority, not here.
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"escorts"
Interesting chat guys but no one has addressed the original
item. Yes,it is happening.My outfit has been intercepted twice since christmas to my knowledge.In both cases, northbound over France from Africa, on flight plan, on track and in normal RT communication with ATC, ie, no abnormal circumstances.
This kind of behavior is irresponsible and Europe is in danger of following the Americans down the 'gung ho' trail where normal, safe practice can be thrown away and the police, military and politicians allowed to do largely as they wish in the name of freedom and the fight against terrorism. By all means intercept and investigate an aircraft under 'suspicion' but lets keep things sensible.It is , without question, dangerous to put aircraft in close proximity to each other on a regular basis and even more so if only one pilot knows about it !Just as the police have come to be viewed as the 'enemy' by motorists, the security services and their various departments could alienate aircrew and lose a source of potentialy valuable and experienced, front line help.
item. Yes,it is happening.My outfit has been intercepted twice since christmas to my knowledge.In both cases, northbound over France from Africa, on flight plan, on track and in normal RT communication with ATC, ie, no abnormal circumstances.
This kind of behavior is irresponsible and Europe is in danger of following the Americans down the 'gung ho' trail where normal, safe practice can be thrown away and the police, military and politicians allowed to do largely as they wish in the name of freedom and the fight against terrorism. By all means intercept and investigate an aircraft under 'suspicion' but lets keep things sensible.It is , without question, dangerous to put aircraft in close proximity to each other on a regular basis and even more so if only one pilot knows about it !Just as the police have come to be viewed as the 'enemy' by motorists, the security services and their various departments could alienate aircrew and lose a source of potentialy valuable and experienced, front line help.
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OK...here's my two cents worth - and an attempt to bring thread back on topic. Why are these interception flights not following published intercept procedures?? As taken from FAA AIM, National Security and Interception procedures, section 5-6-2, sub section b:
1. Phase One- Approach Phase.
"During peacetime, intercepted aircraft will be approached from the stern. Generally two interceptor aircraft will be employed to accomplish the identification. The flight leader and wingman will coordinate their individual positions in conjunction with the ground controlling agency. Their relationship will resemble a line abreast formation. At night or in IMC, a comfortable radar trail tactic will be used. Safe vertical separation between interceptor aircraft and unknown aircraft will be maintained at all times."
Even in law enforcement intercepts, its always from the stern with positive vertical seperation and coordination with ATC. What the H*ll are these guys doing pulling a barrel roll over the top of a loaded airliner?!
1. Phase One- Approach Phase.
"During peacetime, intercepted aircraft will be approached from the stern. Generally two interceptor aircraft will be employed to accomplish the identification. The flight leader and wingman will coordinate their individual positions in conjunction with the ground controlling agency. Their relationship will resemble a line abreast formation. At night or in IMC, a comfortable radar trail tactic will be used. Safe vertical separation between interceptor aircraft and unknown aircraft will be maintained at all times."
Even in law enforcement intercepts, its always from the stern with positive vertical seperation and coordination with ATC. What the H*ll are these guys doing pulling a barrel roll over the top of a loaded airliner?!
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Ranger One Airprox 47 / 02 on 22/4/02 and for 5 miles this was not in France but TCAS RA demanded a 2,000fpm climb which was done at max rpm and power. Intercept a/c passed 100ft unseen underneath. 
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Why the h*** do they need to join up in visual formation? One would think that a radar trail 5-6 nm on the airliners "six" would be quite adequate until a "live" situation arise????
For pilots: Please file an report EVERY time this happens, unless you allow it offcourse!
For pilots: Please file an report EVERY time this happens, unless you allow it offcourse!
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hatsoff It says the Harrier section was tasked by his fighter control to visually identify (VID) an inknown aircraft. .... a beam intercept was achieved and the section approached the other ac in the other pilots 9 0'clock.
Sounds pretty authorised to me
Sounds pretty authorised to me
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Arran's view:
Thanks for that. Sounds nasty. I have the airprox
( http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/airprox.asp?nid=511 for those interested )
You seem to have more information on this incident than is public... was this VMC?
I'm curious as to the reason for pulling both engines... inspection? Actual problems reported? Or SOP due engine limits exceeded during climb?
Thanks
R1
Ranger One Airprox 47 / 02 on 22/4/02 and for 5 miles this was not in France but TCAS RA demanded a 2,000fpm climb which was done at max rpm and power. Intercept a/c passed 100ft unseen underneath
( http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/airprox.asp?nid=511 for those interested )
You seem to have more information on this incident than is public... was this VMC?
I'm curious as to the reason for pulling both engines... inspection? Actual problems reported? Or SOP due engine limits exceeded during climb?
Thanks
R1
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Being intercepted has some dangers to it as some of the guys said earlier but from the time I used to fly over France there was a problem with ATC communcations, half in french half in english...
The danger is that I can not explain in French the aircraft is not being hijacked.
The danger is that I can not explain in French the aircraft is not being hijacked.
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Here's an article on Austrian airliner intercepts:
http://www.airpower.at/news01/1105_intercepts/
As the article points out, the Drakens are old, have no night vision capability and little or no onboard radar.
I'm not crazy about being intercepted in an airliner myself but I'm afraid it's going to be a fact of life in the post 911 world. Airliners have certainly been demonstated to be potential weapons of mass destruction whether we like it or not.
In the U.S., the F-15's and F-16's aren't exactly new but they have been upgraded and can pass targets over a network link which really helps situational awareness. I can hear them on UHF doing intercepts with Night Vision Goggles for training (see: http://www.milaircomms.com/uhf_cap.html for some freqs). Years ago practice intercepts were performed up close and personal with airliners. After some inevitable incidents, the training was watered down and the stand offs increased to several miles.
>>Why the h*** do they need to join up in visual formation? One would think that a radar trail 5-6 nm on the airliners "six" would be quite adequate until a "live" situation arise????<<
Good point. Visual ID is still required in almost all cases for an aerial attack but a trail position would be enough to respond quickly if the threat was suddenly deemed genuine. As mentioned in the article above, some of the older interceptors have little or no radar capability.
http://www.airpower.at/news01/1105_intercepts/
As the article points out, the Drakens are old, have no night vision capability and little or no onboard radar.
I'm not crazy about being intercepted in an airliner myself but I'm afraid it's going to be a fact of life in the post 911 world. Airliners have certainly been demonstated to be potential weapons of mass destruction whether we like it or not.
In the U.S., the F-15's and F-16's aren't exactly new but they have been upgraded and can pass targets over a network link which really helps situational awareness. I can hear them on UHF doing intercepts with Night Vision Goggles for training (see: http://www.milaircomms.com/uhf_cap.html for some freqs). Years ago practice intercepts were performed up close and personal with airliners. After some inevitable incidents, the training was watered down and the stand offs increased to several miles.
>>Why the h*** do they need to join up in visual formation? One would think that a radar trail 5-6 nm on the airliners "six" would be quite adequate until a "live" situation arise????<<
Good point. Visual ID is still required in almost all cases for an aerial attack but a trail position would be enough to respond quickly if the threat was suddenly deemed genuine. As mentioned in the article above, some of the older interceptors have little or no radar capability.
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The Draken have enough radar to fly a trail, as have most fighters used as interceptors in the western world anyway, and visual identification can be done if the interceptor approach with modest rate of closure 1-2000ft below the target.
(If no radar available, one would think GCI vectors are available for the fighters)
If the weather is so bad that they are still unable to do a visual check, they should stay the f*** away, because as some here has stated, joining on a aircraft in thick IMC is DANGEROUS BIG TIME!
BTW: I cannot se one sigle reason why some air forces intercept airliners without even trying to reach the "offender" on guard or othervise.
Anyone wanna bet how long it's gonna be, before we get a midair from all this?
(If no radar available, one would think GCI vectors are available for the fighters)
If the weather is so bad that they are still unable to do a visual check, they should stay the f*** away, because as some here has stated, joining on a aircraft in thick IMC is DANGEROUS BIG TIME!
BTW: I cannot se one sigle reason why some air forces intercept airliners without even trying to reach the "offender" on guard or othervise.
Anyone wanna bet how long it's gonna be, before we get a midair from all this?
Still behind the curtain
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Take Korean Air
Although it took place in the Cold War period, just take the example of the Korean Air 747 which was shot down near/over the the Sakhalin Islands back in the 80s.
A trigger-happy Sukhoi pilot (I don't think it was a MiG) after determining it visually to be a commercial airliner and saw the writing Korean Air, decided to shoot it down anyway. Maybe he could only read the Cyrillic alphabet. Who knows?
But the point is that S*it happens. Of course there were radio communications difficulties, etc., but someone earlier mentioned that those same difficulties exist over France where communications many times are carried out in Fringlish. And if you're not a native Eglish speaker, that only adds to your problems of understanding ATC and the Mirages will be on your tail shortly.
A trigger-happy Sukhoi pilot (I don't think it was a MiG) after determining it visually to be a commercial airliner and saw the writing Korean Air, decided to shoot it down anyway. Maybe he could only read the Cyrillic alphabet. Who knows?
But the point is that S*it happens. Of course there were radio communications difficulties, etc., but someone earlier mentioned that those same difficulties exist over France where communications many times are carried out in Fringlish. And if you're not a native Eglish speaker, that only adds to your problems of understanding ATC and the Mirages will be on your tail shortly.
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Trigger happy ?
I don't know if you are right.
As far as I remember, the official Soviet position after they managed to kill everybody onboard KAL was that the pilot received the order to fire by his operationnal control, because KAL was a "spy-plane".
This order was on communication records, delivered to the public by authorities(don't remember if it was done by Soviet or by US).
This pilot could be "trigger happy" anyway, following orders to fire or doing it on his own....WE DON'T KNOW.
After this massacre (somewhat similar but not quite to Iranian Airbus shot down by US Navy short time before or after I don't remember), it was publicised by independant researchers that a real US "spy plane" was flying in this area, intercepting Soviet radio-communication, glad enough to record them while a real alert was on.....
As far as I remember, the official Soviet position after they managed to kill everybody onboard KAL was that the pilot received the order to fire by his operationnal control, because KAL was a "spy-plane".
This order was on communication records, delivered to the public by authorities(don't remember if it was done by Soviet or by US).
This pilot could be "trigger happy" anyway, following orders to fire or doing it on his own....WE DON'T KNOW.
After this massacre (somewhat similar but not quite to Iranian Airbus shot down by US Navy short time before or after I don't remember), it was publicised by independant researchers that a real US "spy plane" was flying in this area, intercepting Soviet radio-communication, glad enough to record them while a real alert was on.....
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I just have had a chat with a controller today who informed me that these intercepts are about to begin within UK airspace. Have you pilots flying comercial ships been informed of this? I have had a look in the procedures documentation and aparently there are procedures in place for intercepts by military aircraft on airliners. But then again i'm pretty fresh to all this and may have it wrong so just after further confirmation.
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The only procedures I am aware of are the ones in the civil (UK) AIP. These have standard statements as to xpndr codes, monitor 121.5, inform ATC, If intercepting acft turns on landing light, makes sharp turn away from the acft.
Otherwise I haven't received any company procedures/guidlines whilst flying in Europe. But I can imagine there are more rules from the "fighter"side as you might be joining up in formation in IMC in the winter.
Otherwise I haven't received any company procedures/guidlines whilst flying in Europe. But I can imagine there are more rules from the "fighter"side as you might be joining up in formation in IMC in the winter.
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Ranger One you could say I had a particular interest in this one. I photocopied the report when it came out which is why I had it to hand. I found out months later about the engine story when someone associated with the company mentioned it.
Not a very satisfactory report I thought.
Not a very satisfactory report I thought.
