Hapag-Llloyd Airbus pilot charged...
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Small issue of a 'point' bein missed here..Captain by definition is the one mainly responsible for the safety of his aircraft in the air. I say mainly since a few less important personalities have a part to play, like Dispatchers, ATC etc. Assuming he had a plog to work from, isn't it reasonable to assume that it was all laid out in black and white in front of him before the fateful decision was taken by him or made for him by accountants. Damn the cost..put the aircraft first..if it comes to having your ears bashed or wrists slapped then let it be for insubordination and not for jeopardising peoples lives. It's so basic a PPL could make the right call! If you've earned the rank then wear it..call your own shots when in the air!!
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Seniordispatcher,
You are over egging the role of the dispatcher, something of a wetdream to think you would ever be in that position.
Most of the "dispatchers" in the UK are glorified paper delivery boys. With the exception of the serviceair long haul dispatchers, some of whom are very good indeed!
You are over egging the role of the dispatcher, something of a wetdream to think you would ever be in that position.
Most of the "dispatchers" in the UK are glorified paper delivery boys. With the exception of the serviceair long haul dispatchers, some of whom are very good indeed!
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Yes Dogma, and that is precisely the problem with European airline flight ops (JAR or no JAR)...ie: very poor flight following and operational control.
Will they ever learn?...not in our lifetimes.
Even some third world airlines who have seen fit to adopt the FAA style dispatch/flight following procedures, are much better organized.
Case in point, many prior threads here on PPRuNe with regard to operating into LHR with absolute minimum fuel...by UK airlines who should absolutely know better.
In a word...clowns.
Color 'em Hapag-Lloyd.
Will they ever learn?...not in our lifetimes.
Even some third world airlines who have seen fit to adopt the FAA style dispatch/flight following procedures, are much better organized.
Case in point, many prior threads here on PPRuNe with regard to operating into LHR with absolute minimum fuel...by UK airlines who should absolutely know better.
In a word...clowns.
Color 'em Hapag-Lloyd.
Last edited by 411A; 15th Feb 2004 at 10:22.
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>>>You are over egging the role of the dispatcher,
No, not really. Many folks don't read any further back in a thread more than a few messages, and if folks make the same statements, I'll make the same points in return. Sorry if any repeteion has offended you...
>>>something of a wetdream to think you would ever be in that position.
Perhaps because folks over there still seem to think solely in terms of how/what dispatchers are -there-. and not -here-.
>>>Most of the "dispatchers" in the UK are glorified paper delivery boys.
As others have said, as well as myself, it doesn't have to be that way, but absent equivalent training and sufficient support by industry/regulators (as is the case -here-) nothing is likely to change -there-. How puzzling that folks seem to lament about the "paper delivery boys" yet do not/will not support efforts to change that.
What do you wanna bet that lack of operational control is noted as a factor in the final report on the Hapag-Lloyd accident?
No, not really. Many folks don't read any further back in a thread more than a few messages, and if folks make the same statements, I'll make the same points in return. Sorry if any repeteion has offended you...
>>>something of a wetdream to think you would ever be in that position.
Perhaps because folks over there still seem to think solely in terms of how/what dispatchers are -there-. and not -here-.
>>>Most of the "dispatchers" in the UK are glorified paper delivery boys.
As others have said, as well as myself, it doesn't have to be that way, but absent equivalent training and sufficient support by industry/regulators (as is the case -here-) nothing is likely to change -there-. How puzzling that folks seem to lament about the "paper delivery boys" yet do not/will not support efforts to change that.
What do you wanna bet that lack of operational control is noted as a factor in the final report on the Hapag-Lloyd accident?
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Dogma
You really do need read back in this post, we're not talking about ramp dispatchers here but FAA licensed Aircraft/Flight Dispatchers, a world apart in their roles. And I suspect the Servisair Dispatchers your are referring to have FAA Licences.
411a
What is encouraging for European Ops under JAR, are the moves to require the adoption of the ICAO Flight Dispatcher/Operations Officer training standard. This, last I heard, was to be included as a requirement in a JAROPS1 operators Ops Manual Part D. The sad fact is that in the UK and several other European countries, there has never been a minimum training standard for operations control personnel, that I hope is about to change.
You really do need read back in this post, we're not talking about ramp dispatchers here but FAA licensed Aircraft/Flight Dispatchers, a world apart in their roles. And I suspect the Servisair Dispatchers your are referring to have FAA Licences.
411a
What is encouraging for European Ops under JAR, are the moves to require the adoption of the ICAO Flight Dispatcher/Operations Officer training standard. This, last I heard, was to be included as a requirement in a JAROPS1 operators Ops Manual Part D. The sad fact is that in the UK and several other European countries, there has never been a minimum training standard for operations control personnel, that I hope is about to change.
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I'm joining the discussion late. Let me add a bit of background, I am also a current US FAR 121 dispatcher working for a regional airline in the US midwest, having previously worked for a major airline HQ'd somewhere in the western US.
When I was going through my IOE at my previous carrier, I was told a story of an A320 captain who decided that he knew more than his dispatcher. On a flight from Boston to the airlines hub, the dispatcher had built a route well north of the standard beaten path, due to the horrific jet stream core speeds. The airbus departed KBOS with 42.2 fuel on board (ie., max fuel).
In the states we have ASD (Aircraft Situation Display), which is a continual download of FAA radar data. I can see where each of my airplanes are now, and their ATC radar datablock. I can superimpose weather, the filed and actually flown route, and a myriad number of other things. I cant imagine dispatching 121 domestic or flag without it.
Anyway, our dispatcher of this flight remarked their release as to the reason for the nonstandard route as a best-time route due to extreme headwinds. Once the flight was handed off from departure to center, he was displayed on ASD. The dispatcher displayed his filed route (it went up into Canada, so nasty was the jetstream that day for westbounds). A few minutes later his nicely displayed route was deleted, and the flight was either offered or requested direct to the initial fix on the arrival into the hub.
Instead of avoiding the jetstream winds, like the flight plan called for - he was flying directly into the face of a 200 mph jetstream core.
Several radio contacts asking what is MCDU was saying as expected FOB at destination resulted in a decreasing amount, as he was eating well into the reserve - he was planned to land with about 6500 lbs of fuel onboard. All he'd get from the Captain was "we'll be alright." Under US FAR 121, thou shall not plan to land with less than the 45 minute reserve on board - unless unforeseen situations arise, but ignoring the flight plan and the remarks section of his release doesnt count as one of them. At one point his ground speed was less than 300 KTS, and he had over 4 hours of flight time remaining.
Long story short, the crew landed with only about 2500 lbs of fuel on board (IFR reserve is 4000 lbs). The dispatcher had made repeated attempts, to include a near demand to land short for fuel - which the captain disregarded. The dispatcher called the handing center, and declared a minimum fuel advisory, since the captain refused to, to get priority handing into the hub. An investgation ensured, and the captain had to go to "bad captain school". Had the dispatcher not called center and declared a MFA (since the captain wasnt about to), this flight might not have had a safe ending.
As a dispatcher, I know I cant fly the airplane, but, under our system of control, I do manage the flight. I do have the right, and legal responsibility to step in when warranted - and I do sometimes. I can divert a plane when necessary. While I can consult with management, all they can make is suggestions, they're thinking of economics and operational statistics and flight completion factor - nice things when you have the luxury of sitting back and relaxing, but count for naught when youre charged with maintaining flight safety.
When I was going through my IOE at my previous carrier, I was told a story of an A320 captain who decided that he knew more than his dispatcher. On a flight from Boston to the airlines hub, the dispatcher had built a route well north of the standard beaten path, due to the horrific jet stream core speeds. The airbus departed KBOS with 42.2 fuel on board (ie., max fuel).
In the states we have ASD (Aircraft Situation Display), which is a continual download of FAA radar data. I can see where each of my airplanes are now, and their ATC radar datablock. I can superimpose weather, the filed and actually flown route, and a myriad number of other things. I cant imagine dispatching 121 domestic or flag without it.
Anyway, our dispatcher of this flight remarked their release as to the reason for the nonstandard route as a best-time route due to extreme headwinds. Once the flight was handed off from departure to center, he was displayed on ASD. The dispatcher displayed his filed route (it went up into Canada, so nasty was the jetstream that day for westbounds). A few minutes later his nicely displayed route was deleted, and the flight was either offered or requested direct to the initial fix on the arrival into the hub.
Instead of avoiding the jetstream winds, like the flight plan called for - he was flying directly into the face of a 200 mph jetstream core.
Several radio contacts asking what is MCDU was saying as expected FOB at destination resulted in a decreasing amount, as he was eating well into the reserve - he was planned to land with about 6500 lbs of fuel onboard. All he'd get from the Captain was "we'll be alright." Under US FAR 121, thou shall not plan to land with less than the 45 minute reserve on board - unless unforeseen situations arise, but ignoring the flight plan and the remarks section of his release doesnt count as one of them. At one point his ground speed was less than 300 KTS, and he had over 4 hours of flight time remaining.
Long story short, the crew landed with only about 2500 lbs of fuel on board (IFR reserve is 4000 lbs). The dispatcher had made repeated attempts, to include a near demand to land short for fuel - which the captain disregarded. The dispatcher called the handing center, and declared a minimum fuel advisory, since the captain refused to, to get priority handing into the hub. An investgation ensured, and the captain had to go to "bad captain school". Had the dispatcher not called center and declared a MFA (since the captain wasnt about to), this flight might not have had a safe ending.
As a dispatcher, I know I cant fly the airplane, but, under our system of control, I do manage the flight. I do have the right, and legal responsibility to step in when warranted - and I do sometimes. I can divert a plane when necessary. While I can consult with management, all they can make is suggestions, they're thinking of economics and operational statistics and flight completion factor - nice things when you have the luxury of sitting back and relaxing, but count for naught when youre charged with maintaining flight safety.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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I think some of the confusion here is due to two people separated by a common language.
In the US, a 'Dispatcher' is not the same as the 'paper boy' here in the UK. A more likely comparison would be to liken a Part 121 Dispatcher to an 'Operations Controller'.
To our US cousins, I would suggest that they realise that a 'Dispatcher' here in the UK is the person who supervises the boarding/loading and liason between the many different organisations/companies that will be involved with the turn around of the aircraft.
The operations controller rarely, if ever, needs to actually be at the aircraft and indeed often will be in an operations centre not even located on the airport. They will however be in touch with the crew by radio and will be responsible for flight planning and other logistical arrangements, including getting the 'PLOG' and other important documentation to the pilots, flight following, slot requests, etc..
Just thought that this topic needed clearing up a bit as there may be some fragile egos getting badly bruised.
In the US, a 'Dispatcher' is not the same as the 'paper boy' here in the UK. A more likely comparison would be to liken a Part 121 Dispatcher to an 'Operations Controller'.
To our US cousins, I would suggest that they realise that a 'Dispatcher' here in the UK is the person who supervises the boarding/loading and liason between the many different organisations/companies that will be involved with the turn around of the aircraft.
The operations controller rarely, if ever, needs to actually be at the aircraft and indeed often will be in an operations centre not even located on the airport. They will however be in touch with the crew by radio and will be responsible for flight planning and other logistical arrangements, including getting the 'PLOG' and other important documentation to the pilots, flight following, slot requests, etc..
Just thought that this topic needed clearing up a bit as there may be some fragile egos getting badly bruised.
