Peruvian fighter downs missionaries
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Black Sheep,
Yes it was very unfortunate. WE don't know the whole story and if we did know the whole story it would still not justify those people dying. I know and believe that. But since I was prior military AND a cop once I happen to have a different mind set from you in some cases. It seems like according to you, we (the law abiding human race) should just role over and expose our bellies to the various crimminal elements( drug smugglars, rapists, killers etc.) because we cannot be certain 100% of the time only the "bad" guy(quotes because bad is relative I believe)gets hurt. I repeat that WE(as in you, I and the rest of us) were not there and knowing how screwed up the media is all over, we may never know what really happened. All I am saying is nothing will totaly justify those inocents dying but that is the way it is. It is a fact of life and we cannot and will not be able to change that.
This thread reminds me of the Chinese/American situation. We are so quick to point the finger. Well suprise, life is not the cut and dried. Black or white. Maybe you should go back to your cinema where we are all perfect. Go back to your bar where you can bitch like the rest of them. You disgust me.
j
[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 24 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 24 April 2001).]
Yes it was very unfortunate. WE don't know the whole story and if we did know the whole story it would still not justify those people dying. I know and believe that. But since I was prior military AND a cop once I happen to have a different mind set from you in some cases. It seems like according to you, we (the law abiding human race) should just role over and expose our bellies to the various crimminal elements( drug smugglars, rapists, killers etc.) because we cannot be certain 100% of the time only the "bad" guy(quotes because bad is relative I believe)gets hurt. I repeat that WE(as in you, I and the rest of us) were not there and knowing how screwed up the media is all over, we may never know what really happened. All I am saying is nothing will totaly justify those inocents dying but that is the way it is. It is a fact of life and we cannot and will not be able to change that.
This thread reminds me of the Chinese/American situation. We are so quick to point the finger. Well suprise, life is not the cut and dried. Black or white. Maybe you should go back to your cinema where we are all perfect. Go back to your bar where you can bitch like the rest of them. You disgust me.
j
[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 24 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 24 April 2001).]
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Whatever happened to Barry Seal, the former TWA 747 captain who after being caught, admitted to smuggling gear from Colombia to Louisiana over a number of years? Or the other American, Jack Devoe, owner of Devoe Airlines, whose pilots completed over a 100 trafficking flights between South America and the US? Anyone know?
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The Barry Seal story was made into a movie called "Double-crossed" with Dennis Hopper playing the lead role. Quite a good movie (some interesting flying scenes) and pretty amazing if only half true!
In the movie Barry Seal became an FBI agent and assisted in the exposure of drug smuggling at high levels of the government in Columbia. In the end a judge in the US welched on a deal the FBI had promised Seal, and he was sent to a 'half-way house' type detention center where the smugglers got to him and shot him dead.
Don't know anything about the other man you mentioned.
In the movie Barry Seal became an FBI agent and assisted in the exposure of drug smuggling at high levels of the government in Columbia. In the end a judge in the US welched on a deal the FBI had promised Seal, and he was sent to a 'half-way house' type detention center where the smugglers got to him and shot him dead.
Don't know anything about the other man you mentioned.
Guest
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CaptSensible - Thanks for that update. The other guy was a Miami based pilot who formed his airline, essentially a front for a Colombian cartel. Over a five year period or so, he and his pilots smuggled just over 3 tons of coke into the US, utilising the Bahamian island Little Derby Island.
Guest
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Firstly, I was sorry to hear of the downing of a missionary flight with the loss of a mother and child. I would like to think that those who are ultimately responsible for the death of these innocents would be held accountable. Unfortunately I very much doubt that we will ever see true justice done.
Secondly. I agree hole heartidly with BLCL that we have to start in the homes and schools with EDUCATION about the drugs issue. That should include alcohol, cigarettes and caffeine. Treat a drug as a drug, legal or otherwise. Take the mystique away from these substances; remove some of the reason for doing them. Most Kids know the basic difference between good and bad, for example: I knew not to drink bleach as a child because it would kill me. Educate your children. At least then an informed decision can be made by whomever is being offered substances. I would hope my child would say No at that point, but if my kid wanted to take drugs then there is sod all I could do to stop it happening. It’s not hard to find drugs and I would rather know that my children have all the information available to them and they know that they can always run home when it all goes wrong rather than sweating it out in an alley on their own.
We have been fighting a so-called “War on Drugs” for as long as I can remember. I don’t know about the States but it would seem to me that drug use is going up in the UK. Coke, ecstasy and ganja all being used by a significant percentage of people from my generation and from those below on a regular basis. Our “War on Drugs” would therefore seem not to be working as the percentage I talk of is increasing. Our policies do not work at home and they are not working abroad. Use the money we pour into this war for other things, like health and education.
There was no reason for the Mother and her baby to die. Let's hope that something good might arise from thier death. RIP
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Irie
[This message has been edited by Rastaman (edited 24 April 2001).]
Secondly. I agree hole heartidly with BLCL that we have to start in the homes and schools with EDUCATION about the drugs issue. That should include alcohol, cigarettes and caffeine. Treat a drug as a drug, legal or otherwise. Take the mystique away from these substances; remove some of the reason for doing them. Most Kids know the basic difference between good and bad, for example: I knew not to drink bleach as a child because it would kill me. Educate your children. At least then an informed decision can be made by whomever is being offered substances. I would hope my child would say No at that point, but if my kid wanted to take drugs then there is sod all I could do to stop it happening. It’s not hard to find drugs and I would rather know that my children have all the information available to them and they know that they can always run home when it all goes wrong rather than sweating it out in an alley on their own.
We have been fighting a so-called “War on Drugs” for as long as I can remember. I don’t know about the States but it would seem to me that drug use is going up in the UK. Coke, ecstasy and ganja all being used by a significant percentage of people from my generation and from those below on a regular basis. Our “War on Drugs” would therefore seem not to be working as the percentage I talk of is increasing. Our policies do not work at home and they are not working abroad. Use the money we pour into this war for other things, like health and education.
There was no reason for the Mother and her baby to die. Let's hope that something good might arise from thier death. RIP
------------------
Irie
[This message has been edited by Rastaman (edited 24 April 2001).]
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Has anyone else noticed that all the aircraft involved in the recent tragic incident in Peru were built by Cessna? The unfortunate victim was a float-equipped Cessna 185. It was detected by a Cessna Citation V owned by the US Department of Defense, who then alerted the Peruvian Air Force who sent a Cessna A-37B to intercept it.
I can see the Cessna ads from here....
I can see the Cessna ads from here....
Guest
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Guest
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READING BETWEEN THE LINES -
Assuming the segment from the media (below) is accurate, one has to ponder the horror represented by the CIA operating U.S. Air Force Aircraft, particularly in a foreign country.
Drug interdiction is not a function of national security; it is crime prevention and law enforcement. For the CIA to be getting into that extreme of privilege is astounding. If the CIA can't get involved with the Chinese nuclear espionage, nor the terrorist matters directly affecting the U.S., what are they doing playing 'sky cop.'
In a similar fashion the U.S. Secret Service (note the title) did a study on U.S. teenagers, relative to the school shootings. While the study was appropriate for the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, it is equally astounding that the Secret Service did it. What else are they into?
Think of what the CIA might do to an airliner? Does PA-103 come to mind? KAL-007?
In the interim, the FAA 'says no' to airline safety.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"BUSH DESCRIBES U.S. ROLE
After almost two days of conflicting information, the United States sought Sunday to portray its drug surveillance role as advisory in nature.
The U.S. aircraft is owned by the Defense Department but was operated by the Central Intelligence Agency, a U.S. official said.
President Bush has pledged to find out what went wrong, but said the role of the U.S. surveillance plane was “simply to pass on information” about aircraft suspected of carrying drugs.
The surveillance flights, he added Sunday, have been suspended “until we get to the bottom of the situation, to fully understand all the facts, to understand what went wrong in this terrible tragedy.”
The surveillance plane recorded the entire event on audio and video, and U.S. officials in Washington were studying the tapes to determine what went wrong, Miklaszewski reported.
The CIA has been involved in such surveillance flights over Peru since 1995 under authority provided in a law passed in 1994. The law permits U.S. government employees to assist foreign nations in interdicting aircraft when there is reasonable suspicion of illicit drug trade.
Assuming the segment from the media (below) is accurate, one has to ponder the horror represented by the CIA operating U.S. Air Force Aircraft, particularly in a foreign country.
Drug interdiction is not a function of national security; it is crime prevention and law enforcement. For the CIA to be getting into that extreme of privilege is astounding. If the CIA can't get involved with the Chinese nuclear espionage, nor the terrorist matters directly affecting the U.S., what are they doing playing 'sky cop.'
In a similar fashion the U.S. Secret Service (note the title) did a study on U.S. teenagers, relative to the school shootings. While the study was appropriate for the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, it is equally astounding that the Secret Service did it. What else are they into?
Think of what the CIA might do to an airliner? Does PA-103 come to mind? KAL-007?
In the interim, the FAA 'says no' to airline safety.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"BUSH DESCRIBES U.S. ROLE
After almost two days of conflicting information, the United States sought Sunday to portray its drug surveillance role as advisory in nature.
The U.S. aircraft is owned by the Defense Department but was operated by the Central Intelligence Agency, a U.S. official said.
President Bush has pledged to find out what went wrong, but said the role of the U.S. surveillance plane was “simply to pass on information” about aircraft suspected of carrying drugs.
The surveillance flights, he added Sunday, have been suspended “until we get to the bottom of the situation, to fully understand all the facts, to understand what went wrong in this terrible tragedy.”
The surveillance plane recorded the entire event on audio and video, and U.S. officials in Washington were studying the tapes to determine what went wrong, Miklaszewski reported.
The CIA has been involved in such surveillance flights over Peru since 1995 under authority provided in a law passed in 1994. The law permits U.S. government employees to assist foreign nations in interdicting aircraft when there is reasonable suspicion of illicit drug trade.
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I'd suggest the CIA and US Secret Service ( who for some strange reason are tasked with investigating certain frauds and counterfeit currency matters - never really understood that), are doing exactly what MI5 are doing over here in the UK, trying to justify their existance.
Guest
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What worries me most is the "official" stance that everything worked as it should. I certainly hope not. I'm left wondering what steps were taken to warn or ID the cessna besides a few radio calls on a "common" freq. Buzzing, or a few tracers across the bow? Were they afraid these smugglers might take steps to evade the A-37 with their 120 kt. cessna dragging floats.
Guest
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DuncanMac -
Essentially, I agree with you. In the U.S. government system a lot of the justification is max budget expansion. This is partly due to basic need and partly due to a slush fund to 'borrow' from when the budget is exceeded.
However, these agencies have been over the line for a long time. For example, the ATF showed up with an Army in Waco to deliver a search warrant to protect kids in the Davidian compound. The child abuse question had been previously cleared.
(That was in Texas, wasn't it?)
Etc.
Essentially, I agree with you. In the U.S. government system a lot of the justification is max budget expansion. This is partly due to basic need and partly due to a slush fund to 'borrow' from when the budget is exceeded.
However, these agencies have been over the line for a long time. For example, the ATF showed up with an Army in Waco to deliver a search warrant to protect kids in the Davidian compound. The child abuse question had been previously cleared.
(That was in Texas, wasn't it?)
Etc.
Guest
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Dallas Dude.
Agree, a total balls-up, cock-up, foul-up, SNAFU.
Let's consider, (he filed a flight plan, apparently.), but in contravention of several constitutional issues, there was a shoot them down without conviction, just a hunch, mentality in action.
Hey, it'll work, outside the country, let's use the Peruvians (subliminal insert...hot shot (thinks he is) cowboy sort of fighter jock).
Let's execute without trial.
You really want to pursue this kind of stuff? This happen much within the contiguous 49?
Yes drugs are a problem but this is seriously bizarre,warped or sub-human behaviour on a national policy level.
Or was it just an idiot's(or several idiot's) mistake (s)?
(edited for words)
[This message has been edited by Rollingthunder (edited 25 April 2001).]
Agree, a total balls-up, cock-up, foul-up, SNAFU.
Let's consider, (he filed a flight plan, apparently.), but in contravention of several constitutional issues, there was a shoot them down without conviction, just a hunch, mentality in action.
Hey, it'll work, outside the country, let's use the Peruvians (subliminal insert...hot shot (thinks he is) cowboy sort of fighter jock).
Let's execute without trial.
You really want to pursue this kind of stuff? This happen much within the contiguous 49?
Yes drugs are a problem but this is seriously bizarre,warped or sub-human behaviour on a national policy level.
Or was it just an idiot's(or several idiot's) mistake (s)?
(edited for words)
[This message has been edited by Rollingthunder (edited 25 April 2001).]
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Rastaman, putting aside the eloquent arguments both for and against the legalisation of soft drugs for a moment, you are leaving one very important item out of the education you advocate. That is the fact that when you choose to support an illegal trade, you also have made the choice to support the violence that goes along with that trade. Some of the blood spilled is innocent, some far from it . . . but in my opinion all of it is soiling the hands of every one of the millions of consumers of illegal substances worldwide. They are the ones who ultimately "owe God a woman and a kid".
Just look at the Countess of Wessex's business partner who supposedly quite likes the "odd line of coke", many of the entertainers, all peace and love and care and concern, and who so eagerly and self-rightously spout off about various issues and causes, and certainly a healthy percentage of doctors and lawyers (and they are far from the only professions, all with their share of illegal substance using/abusing so-called professionals, I could name), certainly not forgetting many of those in the media and related industries - everyone, everywhere who is f***ing b!tch or b@stard enough to sit there and lie to themselves, to think that his or her use of illicit substances is a "victimless" crime . . .
THINK AGAIN!!!
(And I should think it would be obvious where those I described above can go, and what they can do, to themselves, when they get there.)
[This message has been edited by pax domina (edited 25 April 2001).]
Just look at the Countess of Wessex's business partner who supposedly quite likes the "odd line of coke", many of the entertainers, all peace and love and care and concern, and who so eagerly and self-rightously spout off about various issues and causes, and certainly a healthy percentage of doctors and lawyers (and they are far from the only professions, all with their share of illegal substance using/abusing so-called professionals, I could name), certainly not forgetting many of those in the media and related industries - everyone, everywhere who is f***ing b!tch or b@stard enough to sit there and lie to themselves, to think that his or her use of illicit substances is a "victimless" crime . . .
THINK AGAIN!!!
(And I should think it would be obvious where those I described above can go, and what they can do, to themselves, when they get there.)
[This message has been edited by pax domina (edited 25 April 2001).]
Cunning Artificer
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BLCL, while saying he is an ex-cop, suggests that we should not all lie down, belly up and submit to the bad guys. He hints that a bit a collateral damage is inevitable.
Our systems of justice, whether 'English Law' (as in the U.S. as well as England/Wales and much of the Commonwealth) or the 'Civil Law' that prevails in most of the rest of the free world, assumes that a person is innocent until proven guilty. The standard of proof for guilt is "Beyond all reasonable doubt" The reason being that it is considered preferable that a guilty person should go free rather than an innocent person should be punished.
There are those who believe that the opposite is true - It is better that we get the b*st*rds by whatever means possible. If anyone gets in the way, that's just the way it is. Life sucks. Well maybe I'm not alone in believing that it is better not to have such people employed in law enforcement. Thank goodness BLCL is an ex-cop.
BLCL tells me to go back to the cinema and watch movies. I suggest that there are people out here in the real world who imagine that life IS like a movie. Hot-shot heros fly around, cigar clenched between their teeth, machine gunning the bad guys outta the sky. Cops race around the streets blasting M16 wielding drug dealers into oblivion. It is such movie scenes that promote the idea that street battles with drug dealers are a good thing. They even make the drug scene look glamorous instead of the dirty, degrading business that it really is.
Leaving all that aside, we must return to the original issue. A civilian light aircraft going about its lawful business was shot down by a military aircraft on anti-drug patrol. A mother and her baby were killed. Surely there are other ways of dealing with the problem? Indeed, would it not be better if the electronic-eye aircraft trailed the target to its destination? Then the recipients of the load could also be apprehended if they turned out drug dealers. Of course, they may turn out to be Jet Blast's own OCB and some of his friends.
If a militaristic regime wishes to run its affairs in this way there is no need for a civilised nation to dirty their hands and become part of it. Too many civil aircraft have been shot down already and too many women, children and yes, even innocent men have been killed. Let the US disengage from such activities and behave like the world leader that it undoubtedly is.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
Our systems of justice, whether 'English Law' (as in the U.S. as well as England/Wales and much of the Commonwealth) or the 'Civil Law' that prevails in most of the rest of the free world, assumes that a person is innocent until proven guilty. The standard of proof for guilt is "Beyond all reasonable doubt" The reason being that it is considered preferable that a guilty person should go free rather than an innocent person should be punished.
There are those who believe that the opposite is true - It is better that we get the b*st*rds by whatever means possible. If anyone gets in the way, that's just the way it is. Life sucks. Well maybe I'm not alone in believing that it is better not to have such people employed in law enforcement. Thank goodness BLCL is an ex-cop.
BLCL tells me to go back to the cinema and watch movies. I suggest that there are people out here in the real world who imagine that life IS like a movie. Hot-shot heros fly around, cigar clenched between their teeth, machine gunning the bad guys outta the sky. Cops race around the streets blasting M16 wielding drug dealers into oblivion. It is such movie scenes that promote the idea that street battles with drug dealers are a good thing. They even make the drug scene look glamorous instead of the dirty, degrading business that it really is.
Leaving all that aside, we must return to the original issue. A civilian light aircraft going about its lawful business was shot down by a military aircraft on anti-drug patrol. A mother and her baby were killed. Surely there are other ways of dealing with the problem? Indeed, would it not be better if the electronic-eye aircraft trailed the target to its destination? Then the recipients of the load could also be apprehended if they turned out drug dealers. Of course, they may turn out to be Jet Blast's own OCB and some of his friends.
If a militaristic regime wishes to run its affairs in this way there is no need for a civilised nation to dirty their hands and become part of it. Too many civil aircraft have been shot down already and too many women, children and yes, even innocent men have been killed. Let the US disengage from such activities and behave like the world leader that it undoubtedly is.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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I wonder how upmarket Coke users would feel if they thought about the strong possibility that the powder they are putting up their nose has spent 48 hours or more passing through the digestive system of a Third World courier? I hope that they are sure it has been properly rinsed on retrieval.
I am reliably informed that swallower type importations are up fourfold over a year ago.
I am reliably informed that swallower type importations are up fourfold over a year ago.
Guest
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INTO PERSPECTIVE -
While hostility isn't a factor, there should be some rememberence of the GI heroin evacuees of Viet Nam which no one ever heard about, beyond reliable rumour.
There were thousands.
Strange that Larry Flynt was shot after publishing a series of articles pinning the source on the Christians In Action (not the Church type).
It should also be remembered that the Afghanis did far more damage to the Russian Army with drugs than they could ever dream of doing with bullets.
Throw an economic Blockade around Colombia; despite the U.S. street (and office) demand, that would do far more to get the mess cleaned up.
BACK TO REALITY -
It's about money; forget it.
It would be interesting to pressure some Senators to ask why the CIA is operating Air Force aircraft in the drug world, but not the military threat world.
Since when does the CIA play Forward Air Controller to another country's air force - for any reason?
In the U.S. the economy demands both parents working with the kids in day-care. The U.S. used to shred the communists for that. The difference - cash flow.
Now, with their autonomy, the kids are into drugs and the crime necessary to support the demand. More cash flow.
When the drugs became known among U.S. air traffic controllers (Jim Bergquist, et al), the drug testing nearly stopped. Cash flow continued.
Except for the cash flow, drugs would be one major crime in the U.S.
Whether a baloon bursts in the stomach of a 'mule' passenger or an innocent aircraft is shot down, drugs are no small problem in the aviation world.
While hostility isn't a factor, there should be some rememberence of the GI heroin evacuees of Viet Nam which no one ever heard about, beyond reliable rumour.
There were thousands.
Strange that Larry Flynt was shot after publishing a series of articles pinning the source on the Christians In Action (not the Church type).
It should also be remembered that the Afghanis did far more damage to the Russian Army with drugs than they could ever dream of doing with bullets.
Throw an economic Blockade around Colombia; despite the U.S. street (and office) demand, that would do far more to get the mess cleaned up.
BACK TO REALITY -
It's about money; forget it.
It would be interesting to pressure some Senators to ask why the CIA is operating Air Force aircraft in the drug world, but not the military threat world.
Since when does the CIA play Forward Air Controller to another country's air force - for any reason?
In the U.S. the economy demands both parents working with the kids in day-care. The U.S. used to shred the communists for that. The difference - cash flow.
Now, with their autonomy, the kids are into drugs and the crime necessary to support the demand. More cash flow.
When the drugs became known among U.S. air traffic controllers (Jim Bergquist, et al), the drug testing nearly stopped. Cash flow continued.
Except for the cash flow, drugs would be one major crime in the U.S.
Whether a baloon bursts in the stomach of a 'mule' passenger or an innocent aircraft is shot down, drugs are no small problem in the aviation world.
Guest
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Pax.
I am not in a position to be able to say if decriminalization or legalization of Drugs is the Key. All I can say on that is, maybe it should be researched and discussed by a representative panel.
I will however say that people are in business to make money. Once they can’t make money they can’t afford to do business. Take away demand or wipeout the profit and they will have no reason to produce the stuff.
Look. A mother and her child were killed. Shot down in a missionary a/c on floats, by a Peruvian airforce jet, directed by US Citizens, in the employ of the US Government. Note that this is the same country that had been involved with drug smuggling in SE Asia.
This situation Stinks.
------------------
Irie
I am not in a position to be able to say if decriminalization or legalization of Drugs is the Key. All I can say on that is, maybe it should be researched and discussed by a representative panel.
I will however say that people are in business to make money. Once they can’t make money they can’t afford to do business. Take away demand or wipeout the profit and they will have no reason to produce the stuff.
Look. A mother and her child were killed. Shot down in a missionary a/c on floats, by a Peruvian airforce jet, directed by US Citizens, in the employ of the US Government. Note that this is the same country that had been involved with drug smuggling in SE Asia.
This situation Stinks.
------------------
Irie
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Rastaman - A post bringing to everyone's attention something that had been left out of this discussion merits a thumbs down from you? I did not mean to insult you, only to suggest an addition to the education you advocate. For that I am deserving of your (and presumably everyone else's) scorn? 
Your comment that the current situation stinks is something I heartily agree with - why would you imagine that I would disagree?
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Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" was a part of my school curriculum, was it a part of yours?
[This message has been edited by pax domina (edited 25 April 2001).]
Your comment that the current situation stinks is something I heartily agree with - why would you imagine that I would disagree?
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Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" was a part of my school curriculum, was it a part of yours?
[This message has been edited by pax domina (edited 25 April 2001).]
Guest
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Pax,
Sorry thumbs down was to do with thoughts on the situation, nothing to do with you. I can hardly call your comments insulting, and you do raise a point that had been left out. Although I will say that I am sorry for those caught in the crossfire, those that are involved in drugs trafficking and trading have made their choice. I do not feel anything for someone who brings misery and death to someonelse's life for any reason, let alone money.
I think there is allot more that goes on behind closed doors in offices on both sides of the Atlantic that we don't know about and wouldn't agree with if we did. The hypocrisy of our elected representatives really gets to me.
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Irie
[This message has been edited by Rastaman (edited 25 April 2001).]
Sorry thumbs down was to do with thoughts on the situation, nothing to do with you. I can hardly call your comments insulting, and you do raise a point that had been left out. Although I will say that I am sorry for those caught in the crossfire, those that are involved in drugs trafficking and trading have made their choice. I do not feel anything for someone who brings misery and death to someonelse's life for any reason, let alone money.
I think there is allot more that goes on behind closed doors in offices on both sides of the Atlantic that we don't know about and wouldn't agree with if we did. The hypocrisy of our elected representatives really gets to me.
------------------
Irie
[This message has been edited by Rastaman (edited 25 April 2001).]