Continued U.S interfering with foreign airlines
Union Goon
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Moosp,
The damage from a SMALL device (the type likely to get on an aircraft) in negligable of the aircraft is unpressurized. If it is pressurized however the combination of blast and pressurization serves to push the skin away from the stringers and whatnot and destroys the "Ripstop" or failsafe design of a modern pressurized cabin. So the force of the air going out the hole continues the work with no ripstop to stop it...
Surely you have seen the videos of explove demostrations in pressureized and unpressurized cabins and consequently what goes into determining the "Least risk" bomb location on an aircaft (Usually infront of an aft door precisely centered both vertically and horizontally so you get the rip stop of the door frame...
BTW, on that subject on flight 63 (the shoe bomber) before many of the current procedures were in effect, when they took the shoes from Reid, initially they took them to the cockpit, They quickly figured out that wasn't so smart and moved it to the least risk bomb location, but we get a good chuckle about that right now...
Cheers
Wino
The damage from a SMALL device (the type likely to get on an aircraft) in negligable of the aircraft is unpressurized. If it is pressurized however the combination of blast and pressurization serves to push the skin away from the stringers and whatnot and destroys the "Ripstop" or failsafe design of a modern pressurized cabin. So the force of the air going out the hole continues the work with no ripstop to stop it...
Surely you have seen the videos of explove demostrations in pressureized and unpressurized cabins and consequently what goes into determining the "Least risk" bomb location on an aircaft (Usually infront of an aft door precisely centered both vertically and horizontally so you get the rip stop of the door frame...
BTW, on that subject on flight 63 (the shoe bomber) before many of the current procedures were in effect, when they took the shoes from Reid, initially they took them to the cockpit, They quickly figured out that wasn't so smart and moved it to the least risk bomb location, but we get a good chuckle about that right now...
Cheers
Wino
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Max & Macaw -
Your droll joking about what happens at the front of plane from the cabin side is way, way off base. Speaking only of my experiences on American Airlines flts inside the USA, the drill goes like this: an FA will pull a food service cart across the narrow aisle that leads into the galley area. She sets the wheel locks. Then the flt deck crew member exits the FD (well there is more done than just that simple statement - but your going to have to fly to find that bit out, sorry). FD member then does their business and the cart goes back in place for their re-entry to the FD. No curtains are involved.
Is the cart a foolproof safety mechanism - NO - it is not. But it will serve as a very good "slowdown" barrier to ANY fool trying something. Ah yes, you say, now is the time for that "five foot nothing" of an FA to take over. Wrong again - this is the time that people like me will take over, and I am 6 foot 7 inches tall and weigh 270 lbs. Most American professional air travellers long ago adopted a "never again" attitude towards funny stuff in first class. Just to make the point, pax have already killed one person here in the air in a struggle over cockpit door entry attempt. Do YOU want to be next? If so, just try something funny at the front on your next USA domestic flight!!
The pax on USA flights are the biggest, and most determined, anti-terrorists items in the air. We really do not need Marshalls (although I welcome them). What causes me pause is that it seems like folks from other than the USA are not willing to support the Cabin & Flt. Deck crew in defense of the airplane.
Why is that? What culture says the pax will just sit there and let the bad guys take over and fly the pax to their doom? Hard for me to understand that attitude of NOT acting in self defense.
Have a "luvvie" day - Y'all .......
Your droll joking about what happens at the front of plane from the cabin side is way, way off base. Speaking only of my experiences on American Airlines flts inside the USA, the drill goes like this: an FA will pull a food service cart across the narrow aisle that leads into the galley area. She sets the wheel locks. Then the flt deck crew member exits the FD (well there is more done than just that simple statement - but your going to have to fly to find that bit out, sorry). FD member then does their business and the cart goes back in place for their re-entry to the FD. No curtains are involved.
Is the cart a foolproof safety mechanism - NO - it is not. But it will serve as a very good "slowdown" barrier to ANY fool trying something. Ah yes, you say, now is the time for that "five foot nothing" of an FA to take over. Wrong again - this is the time that people like me will take over, and I am 6 foot 7 inches tall and weigh 270 lbs. Most American professional air travellers long ago adopted a "never again" attitude towards funny stuff in first class. Just to make the point, pax have already killed one person here in the air in a struggle over cockpit door entry attempt. Do YOU want to be next? If so, just try something funny at the front on your next USA domestic flight!!
The pax on USA flights are the biggest, and most determined, anti-terrorists items in the air. We really do not need Marshalls (although I welcome them). What causes me pause is that it seems like folks from other than the USA are not willing to support the Cabin & Flt. Deck crew in defense of the airplane.
Why is that? What culture says the pax will just sit there and let the bad guys take over and fly the pax to their doom? Hard for me to understand that attitude of NOT acting in self defense.
Have a "luvvie" day - Y'all .......
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What do you think....
...av8boy; about using Pollock's inspired decoration for passengers cabin, after the new rule(no queuing fot toilets fans) is enforced , so the consequences shall be less unaesthetic ?
AA Slf.
Well speaking only of my experiences in the left-hand seat of a short-haul jet in Europe I can assure you my "droll joking" about what goes on at front of the cabin is about spot on, it's not taken seriously enough. Like the idea of using a trolley to block the entrance to the galley, will pass it on to our people.
Speaking only of my experiences on American Airlines flts inside the USA,
Union Goon
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Max, I'm Suprised that wasn't passed along.
Much of the policies for securing the cabin were developed in the aftermath of flight 63, that was thought up on the fly, and passed to all US carriers as a suggested standard procedure in the resulting debrief and tightening of lockdown procedures that follwed that flight and the brazil assault on the UAL flight deck.... I wonder how much gets passed beyond the border... And then gets discarded because it wasn't "created over here"...
Not all crews follow the cart procedure, but they are supposed to...
Cheers
Wino
Much of the policies for securing the cabin were developed in the aftermath of flight 63, that was thought up on the fly, and passed to all US carriers as a suggested standard procedure in the resulting debrief and tightening of lockdown procedures that follwed that flight and the brazil assault on the UAL flight deck.... I wonder how much gets passed beyond the border... And then gets discarded because it wasn't "created over here"...
Not all crews follow the cart procedure, but they are supposed to...
Cheers
Wino
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Wino,
The "cart block" was only officially authorised in the recent revisions of the blue book after all the hardened doors had been installed. It was not the result of any particular flight (in fact flight service had "counseled" several FA's who had prematurely initiated this procedure against AA's wishes).
Danny et al... this security spat between US and UK (BALPA) is nothing personal. In 1776 having one nation impose on another was cause for revolt!
However, September 11th happened. Just as terrorism in London, and elsewhere in the UK, happened.
Britain's response to this was to install video surveillance on most street corners in Central London. They also removed most street's rubbish bins (because the IRA found out they made handy hiding places for anti-personnel weapons).
If the US government were to mandate like minded video surveillance in the US there'd be hell to pay so I really can understand BALPA's stance.
The reality over here is, most US citizens feel safer knowing, at this time, that there may be an armed guard on board their aircraft. Go figure!
We'll have to put this difference of opinion down to culture.
Growing up in the UK I can see both sides of the coin. We need to put our differences of opinion aside for a moment and recognise who the real enemy is. The threat to our profession is not from within. No professional airline crew in the world wants to be the next tool of the terrorist. If, in the short term, this US security missive prevents such an event, we ALL win.
Let's hope that during the interim that smart minds are busy working on a better solution.
The "cart block" was only officially authorised in the recent revisions of the blue book after all the hardened doors had been installed. It was not the result of any particular flight (in fact flight service had "counseled" several FA's who had prematurely initiated this procedure against AA's wishes).
Danny et al... this security spat between US and UK (BALPA) is nothing personal. In 1776 having one nation impose on another was cause for revolt!
However, September 11th happened. Just as terrorism in London, and elsewhere in the UK, happened.
Britain's response to this was to install video surveillance on most street corners in Central London. They also removed most street's rubbish bins (because the IRA found out they made handy hiding places for anti-personnel weapons).
If the US government were to mandate like minded video surveillance in the US there'd be hell to pay so I really can understand BALPA's stance.
The reality over here is, most US citizens feel safer knowing, at this time, that there may be an armed guard on board their aircraft. Go figure!
We'll have to put this difference of opinion down to culture.
Growing up in the UK I can see both sides of the coin. We need to put our differences of opinion aside for a moment and recognise who the real enemy is. The threat to our profession is not from within. No professional airline crew in the world wants to be the next tool of the terrorist. If, in the short term, this US security missive prevents such an event, we ALL win.
Let's hope that during the interim that smart minds are busy working on a better solution.
Union Goon
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dd
Initially in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 when we resumed ops we counceled (atleast in the NY domicile) crews that were going to fly to do the cart block. Then came the katey bars and it was in an RF7700 sec for a while. Then Cabin service felt we were keeping first class pax away from a lav too much and they put a stop to it (and for a while we were explicitly told not to make the announcements to stay away from the forward lav(cockpit door). Then flight stepped back in a changed the blue book to where we are now...
I may be slightly wrong on the sequence, but the policy came and went and came back, and was also advocated on the 63 video.
The real moral of the carts blocking off the lavs story was that the flight attendants should never have been broken out of the flight department command structure and given to marketing. Once AA's organization was broken down in that manner, the flight attendants first concern became marketing and not safety (atleast in management's point of view) The Flight attendants should answer to the same VP of flight that pilots do, Not the VP of cabin service which is a marketing position.
Anyway Now that Jane Allen has gone to UAL and the wicked witch of the west's little trained flying monkey is gone, I hope someone throws a bucket of water on the spinmistress and see if she melts as well. Then we will know AArpy is doing good...
Cheers
Wino
Initially in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 when we resumed ops we counceled (atleast in the NY domicile) crews that were going to fly to do the cart block. Then came the katey bars and it was in an RF7700 sec for a while. Then Cabin service felt we were keeping first class pax away from a lav too much and they put a stop to it (and for a while we were explicitly told not to make the announcements to stay away from the forward lav(cockpit door). Then flight stepped back in a changed the blue book to where we are now...
I may be slightly wrong on the sequence, but the policy came and went and came back, and was also advocated on the 63 video.
The real moral of the carts blocking off the lavs story was that the flight attendants should never have been broken out of the flight department command structure and given to marketing. Once AA's organization was broken down in that manner, the flight attendants first concern became marketing and not safety (atleast in management's point of view) The Flight attendants should answer to the same VP of flight that pilots do, Not the VP of cabin service which is a marketing position.
Anyway Now that Jane Allen has gone to UAL and the wicked witch of the west's little trained flying monkey is gone, I hope someone throws a bucket of water on the spinmistress and see if she melts as well. Then we will know AArpy is doing good...
Cheers
Wino
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AASLF thank goodness there are some reasonable responses like your on this thread. I think some of the others are living in a dream world.
Rules, carts, Tasers, and guns and other internal things which I won't discuss may or may not stop terroism. But the terrorists are going to strike next at those places where some of the people are now laughing at efforts put forward to stop or reduce threats. They obviously have not been through was AA and UA have experienced. Maybe their turn is coming and it won't seem like such a joke.
As you say, passengers have killed people who have attempted to get in the cockpit and those who try MAY get killed in the interim with the questions asked later.
You may have followed the UAL 777 case to GRU or EZE where the idiot tried to get into the cockpit during cruise. Unfortunately the crew only used the flat edge of the battle ax on him and got a little blood and the guy is in jail. I personally would have used the blade numerous times, chopped his head off, and written it up in the logbook that the AX needs sharpening and cleaning.
Next issue.......
Rules, carts, Tasers, and guns and other internal things which I won't discuss may or may not stop terroism. But the terrorists are going to strike next at those places where some of the people are now laughing at efforts put forward to stop or reduce threats. They obviously have not been through was AA and UA have experienced. Maybe their turn is coming and it won't seem like such a joke.
As you say, passengers have killed people who have attempted to get in the cockpit and those who try MAY get killed in the interim with the questions asked later.
You may have followed the UAL 777 case to GRU or EZE where the idiot tried to get into the cockpit during cruise. Unfortunately the crew only used the flat edge of the battle ax on him and got a little blood and the guy is in jail. I personally would have used the blade numerous times, chopped his head off, and written it up in the logbook that the AX needs sharpening and cleaning.
Next issue.......
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Ok stick with me, giving background to enlighten my point of view but will get to the point.
As a Greek citizen living in the US for the past 9 years (to the day tomorrow), I know I am a guest in this country and respect its laws, however stupid I might find them at times, much more than the average US citizen.
Now in these 9 years, I have spent 6.5 of them in Houston (yes the fat city) and the last 2.5 in New York. I have gotten both the southern and the most "European" northern views of people in the US.
I moved to New York 3 weeks before 9/11, saw one of the towers come down in front of me, from the parking lot of our corporate headquarters in Long Island and not TV, and wept for some friends that were lost in that living nightmare.
Yes, I do want to avoid future disasters like this, whether in the US or any other part of the world but I fail to see the reasoning behind some of the paranoia suggested. This "congregate" rule seems to beat everything so far. I fail to see any sense behind this rule.
Wino said at one point that it provides justification into a steward (male or female) seeing something funny and having the plane diverted. So basically you suggest that a group of terrorists have managed to get themselves all in this flight, despite all of the other measures, and having gotten there, they decide to get together to see what they are going to do next because their plan is not clear ???
Or even if they need to clarify something, the steward noticing and alerting the captain will provide for enough time for the flight to be diverted or prevent them from doing something before they accomplish it ???
SORRY BUT THAT IS ABSURD TO EVEN SUGGEST.
I see it more likely for someone to misinterpret a few individuals actually waiting for the damn toilet and having a flight disrupted for nothing.
Now eventhough these were discussed in different threads, I have seen that this thread has taken the role of "Security, what can work and what is total a** covering"
In respects to Sky/Air Marshals, although I have utter respect for people specially trained with firearms and their use and what they can accomplish, I do see the reasoning behind some people's objections about keeping any sort of weapon, much more a gun, out of airplanes, where they can be used by terrorists. I guess I am neutral on this one.
In respects to fingerprinting. Like I said, I am a Greek citizen, and although an EU passport carrier, I do require a visa. Although I have no objection in getting fingerprinted, as I too have had to have this done at an early stage in my life, I do not really see it as a serious deterrent as it is being used.
Anyone carrying a visa already has had to get this visa at a US consulate abroad where he can be checked against watchlists. Also anyone carrying a visa has to go through thorough immigration anyways. So what is the point ???
Not to mention that this check is only done after the person has already gotten themselves on the flight and LANDED in the US.
The only thing I can see this resulting to, as any other visa carrying person that has arrived at terminal 1 of JFK at around 16:00 can testify to, is another never-ending line after a minimum 6 hour flight. There will never be enough self-serve kiosks, the process will never be fast enough, especially with the 82 year old non-English speaking grandmother, that has never seen an electronic sensor, in front of you.
So add at least another 15 minutes for every lawfully carrying visa-holder on their trip while terrorists on the other hand can easily sail into any small port in the US with a chartered boat from the Bahamas, or even walk across the Mexico - Texas border.
Bubba, Duke and AA SLF. Yes, the US does have the right to regulate things in the US. However every other country has the right to regulate things in their country. As Ranger One has put it, if two countries make two contradictary rules, then all flights from-to these two countries will by law cease. Wouldn't it be better if the two countries (or all countries) got together and agreed on what is reasonable ??? Or should we just abolish flights all together and have people take the ship to get to the US ???
Now going to the economic aspects of these regulations:
Since 9/11 I have seen our COO's company-wide announcement that we are going to be limiting trips to client sites and relying much more into video-conferencing, due to the difficulties introduced into flying, with great sorrow. This did not only cause me sorrow because I would have less chances to spend in my beloved skies, but because I knew that video-conferencing is not nearly as close as the chance to "mingle" with the clients. I have seen two multi-million dollar deals with international clients go to hell just because of this, and the effect this has had to the small-scale economies of our company and our employees just fearing the whole widescale perspectives.
I myself, chose to drive alone 13 hours to Montreal and back, just 2 weeks ago, instead of taking one-hour flights, and keeping myself once again away from my much loved aviation environment, just because I was afraid of the hassle I would have to go through at the airport. My trip was a result of a stupid combination of US immigration and Greek passport laws, which meant that I would need to go without a passport for 3 months if I tried dealing with it by working with the INS inside the US, or I could just make the first U-turn in Canada and be back here in the US in 5 minutes. Being an electrical engineer and seeing today's DL43 incident, I do not regret having driven. Seeing a trend develop ? Lost revenue for the airlines here ?
I have chosen to live in the US at this time of my life because I like most things in this country. It is a great nation, but as El Grifo put it, not in its finest hour. The things that have made this a great nation are now being totally overriden.
I feel that people of all nations have lots to learn from the people of other nations while keeping their individuality. Yes, the US might be the superpower right now, but that does not give it the right to try to "regulate" everyone.
The Europeans have been dealing with terrorism for a lot longer and have had the time and experience to find the reasonable boundaries between protecting the public from the insane and protecting personal freedom. Yes, 09/11 might have happened in the US, but everyone is trying to avoid it from happening again ANYWHERE. You cannot paralyse the world economy and international relations by trying to prevent others from abusing them.
Maybe the US should start listening a bit more to some of the experienced people on the block.
Finally as movies seem to have quite an influence on most of my American friends, maybe I should remind them of that 1998 one called "The Siege" (Denzel Washington, Annette Benning, Bruce Willis). Whoever wrote it must have had some foresight as the whole premis was how far can you go before fighting terrorism becomes counterproductive. For obvious reasons, it was never a super-hit in the US.
SLF Rambling ends here.
PS: Does this "law" mean that I will not be able to flirt with the spotted cutie 3 rows ahead on my next cross-the-pond ??? Another drawback to Human Relations !!!!
As a Greek citizen living in the US for the past 9 years (to the day tomorrow), I know I am a guest in this country and respect its laws, however stupid I might find them at times, much more than the average US citizen.
Now in these 9 years, I have spent 6.5 of them in Houston (yes the fat city) and the last 2.5 in New York. I have gotten both the southern and the most "European" northern views of people in the US.
I moved to New York 3 weeks before 9/11, saw one of the towers come down in front of me, from the parking lot of our corporate headquarters in Long Island and not TV, and wept for some friends that were lost in that living nightmare.
Yes, I do want to avoid future disasters like this, whether in the US or any other part of the world but I fail to see the reasoning behind some of the paranoia suggested. This "congregate" rule seems to beat everything so far. I fail to see any sense behind this rule.
Wino said at one point that it provides justification into a steward (male or female) seeing something funny and having the plane diverted. So basically you suggest that a group of terrorists have managed to get themselves all in this flight, despite all of the other measures, and having gotten there, they decide to get together to see what they are going to do next because their plan is not clear ???
Or even if they need to clarify something, the steward noticing and alerting the captain will provide for enough time for the flight to be diverted or prevent them from doing something before they accomplish it ???
SORRY BUT THAT IS ABSURD TO EVEN SUGGEST.
I see it more likely for someone to misinterpret a few individuals actually waiting for the damn toilet and having a flight disrupted for nothing.
Now eventhough these were discussed in different threads, I have seen that this thread has taken the role of "Security, what can work and what is total a** covering"
In respects to Sky/Air Marshals, although I have utter respect for people specially trained with firearms and their use and what they can accomplish, I do see the reasoning behind some people's objections about keeping any sort of weapon, much more a gun, out of airplanes, where they can be used by terrorists. I guess I am neutral on this one.
In respects to fingerprinting. Like I said, I am a Greek citizen, and although an EU passport carrier, I do require a visa. Although I have no objection in getting fingerprinted, as I too have had to have this done at an early stage in my life, I do not really see it as a serious deterrent as it is being used.
Anyone carrying a visa already has had to get this visa at a US consulate abroad where he can be checked against watchlists. Also anyone carrying a visa has to go through thorough immigration anyways. So what is the point ???
Not to mention that this check is only done after the person has already gotten themselves on the flight and LANDED in the US.
The only thing I can see this resulting to, as any other visa carrying person that has arrived at terminal 1 of JFK at around 16:00 can testify to, is another never-ending line after a minimum 6 hour flight. There will never be enough self-serve kiosks, the process will never be fast enough, especially with the 82 year old non-English speaking grandmother, that has never seen an electronic sensor, in front of you.
So add at least another 15 minutes for every lawfully carrying visa-holder on their trip while terrorists on the other hand can easily sail into any small port in the US with a chartered boat from the Bahamas, or even walk across the Mexico - Texas border.
Bubba, Duke and AA SLF. Yes, the US does have the right to regulate things in the US. However every other country has the right to regulate things in their country. As Ranger One has put it, if two countries make two contradictary rules, then all flights from-to these two countries will by law cease. Wouldn't it be better if the two countries (or all countries) got together and agreed on what is reasonable ??? Or should we just abolish flights all together and have people take the ship to get to the US ???
Now going to the economic aspects of these regulations:
Since 9/11 I have seen our COO's company-wide announcement that we are going to be limiting trips to client sites and relying much more into video-conferencing, due to the difficulties introduced into flying, with great sorrow. This did not only cause me sorrow because I would have less chances to spend in my beloved skies, but because I knew that video-conferencing is not nearly as close as the chance to "mingle" with the clients. I have seen two multi-million dollar deals with international clients go to hell just because of this, and the effect this has had to the small-scale economies of our company and our employees just fearing the whole widescale perspectives.
I myself, chose to drive alone 13 hours to Montreal and back, just 2 weeks ago, instead of taking one-hour flights, and keeping myself once again away from my much loved aviation environment, just because I was afraid of the hassle I would have to go through at the airport. My trip was a result of a stupid combination of US immigration and Greek passport laws, which meant that I would need to go without a passport for 3 months if I tried dealing with it by working with the INS inside the US, or I could just make the first U-turn in Canada and be back here in the US in 5 minutes. Being an electrical engineer and seeing today's DL43 incident, I do not regret having driven. Seeing a trend develop ? Lost revenue for the airlines here ?
I have chosen to live in the US at this time of my life because I like most things in this country. It is a great nation, but as El Grifo put it, not in its finest hour. The things that have made this a great nation are now being totally overriden.
I feel that people of all nations have lots to learn from the people of other nations while keeping their individuality. Yes, the US might be the superpower right now, but that does not give it the right to try to "regulate" everyone.
The Europeans have been dealing with terrorism for a lot longer and have had the time and experience to find the reasonable boundaries between protecting the public from the insane and protecting personal freedom. Yes, 09/11 might have happened in the US, but everyone is trying to avoid it from happening again ANYWHERE. You cannot paralyse the world economy and international relations by trying to prevent others from abusing them.
Maybe the US should start listening a bit more to some of the experienced people on the block.
Finally as movies seem to have quite an influence on most of my American friends, maybe I should remind them of that 1998 one called "The Siege" (Denzel Washington, Annette Benning, Bruce Willis). Whoever wrote it must have had some foresight as the whole premis was how far can you go before fighting terrorism becomes counterproductive. For obvious reasons, it was never a super-hit in the US.
SLF Rambling ends here.
PS: Does this "law" mean that I will not be able to flirt with the spotted cutie 3 rows ahead on my next cross-the-pond ??? Another drawback to Human Relations !!!!
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Yes, the Europeans have been dealing with terrorism for a longer time and that is the problem. The terrorists Europeans have had to face are nothing like al-Qaeda. The size, scope, determination to kill as many civilians as possible including using WMD, and complete lack of a middle ground to negotiate are different. You can not bargain with al-Qaeda - this is a war and must be prosecuted as such.
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One's perception of the continuing threat to commercial aviation from terrorism is relative isnt it?Europe dint have a 911,so these measures are seen as paranoid.Talk to the relatives of the crew who had their throats slit on that fateful day,and its seen as a measure long overdue.
I dont think the US takes any satisfaction in "interfering" with the sovereignity of your national airlines,but the directive is only aimed at those airlines entering US airspace.Recent events have all but confirmed that these people want a rerun of 911.The US is not about to let a bunch of left-wing whingeing Euros prevent them taking whatever measures are required to stop another 911.To all those rational people across the pond who understand that Air Marshalls are NOT dangerous,and that they are needed in this day and age,we say thank you for helping us to keep America safe.
I dont think the US takes any satisfaction in "interfering" with the sovereignity of your national airlines,but the directive is only aimed at those airlines entering US airspace.Recent events have all but confirmed that these people want a rerun of 911.The US is not about to let a bunch of left-wing whingeing Euros prevent them taking whatever measures are required to stop another 911.To all those rational people across the pond who understand that Air Marshalls are NOT dangerous,and that they are needed in this day and age,we say thank you for helping us to keep America safe.
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Firearms never solved anything, and the only ones who does not see this, are mostly americans.. Go figure...
The last thing you want in a airplane is a terrorist with a gun. Now, the terrorist has no way of getting a gun onboard an airplane, due to the pax-screening at the airports, so why on earth would anyone, who's playing with a full deck of cards, want to bring a firearm onboard a plane where it is possible for a terrorist to get hold of it?
Surely, a terrorist with a small knife-like object is easier to subdue than one holding a firearm generously offered to him by US-regulations and a dead air-marshall?
The problem with USA is that they have always lagged behind on airport-security, and now they're going overboard with it to compensate... ...and now it's all just a ugly caotic mess of regulations...
Terrorists were never a unknown threat in Europe, and it still isn't, but europeans have (and have always had) a more relaxed and realistic relationship to terrorism.
USA on the other side went full ape**** at 9/11, and have since then grown to look like a paranoid police-state in the eyes of europeans..
Airport security in Europe has been upgraded over the last few years, but it's still at a more realistic level than in the US...
If the US goverment bans all flights to the US without air-marshalls, Europe (and others) should ban flights carriying air-marshalls...
A armed air-marshall doesn't stop terrorists... It's just a minor obstacle for them, and when they overcome the obstacle they are rewarded with a gun... Now how's that for a sweet reward!?
....and as to the reactions of Brazil: Great!! May all countries follow their example and make it just as hard for americans to get out of the US as it is for others to get in!
Then let's see how big W is...
The last thing you want in a airplane is a terrorist with a gun. Now, the terrorist has no way of getting a gun onboard an airplane, due to the pax-screening at the airports, so why on earth would anyone, who's playing with a full deck of cards, want to bring a firearm onboard a plane where it is possible for a terrorist to get hold of it?
Surely, a terrorist with a small knife-like object is easier to subdue than one holding a firearm generously offered to him by US-regulations and a dead air-marshall?
The problem with USA is that they have always lagged behind on airport-security, and now they're going overboard with it to compensate... ...and now it's all just a ugly caotic mess of regulations...
Terrorists were never a unknown threat in Europe, and it still isn't, but europeans have (and have always had) a more relaxed and realistic relationship to terrorism.
USA on the other side went full ape**** at 9/11, and have since then grown to look like a paranoid police-state in the eyes of europeans..
Airport security in Europe has been upgraded over the last few years, but it's still at a more realistic level than in the US...
If the US goverment bans all flights to the US without air-marshalls, Europe (and others) should ban flights carriying air-marshalls...
A armed air-marshall doesn't stop terrorists... It's just a minor obstacle for them, and when they overcome the obstacle they are rewarded with a gun... Now how's that for a sweet reward!?
....and as to the reactions of Brazil: Great!! May all countries follow their example and make it just as hard for americans to get out of the US as it is for others to get in!
Then let's see how big W is...
Last edited by The Bartender; 7th Jan 2004 at 19:50.
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And the Profile of an Air Marshall....
Normally either a cop who didn't quite make the grade, or a Security Officer with a promotion [Crew/Passenger Screener in a past life]...or bless their socks, that ex military frustrated cowboy that wants to earn that tantalising $45K......!!!
Great, all these experts are quite frightening.......
Security...is a "new" industry, and of course there are all the "experts" pushing their ill informed ridiculous and self enlightening viewpoints.....
Great, all these experts are quite frightening.......
Security...is a "new" industry, and of course there are all the "experts" pushing their ill informed ridiculous and self enlightening viewpoints.....
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In the end, the US authorities don't really care what European airlines/pilots, and indeed other nations/pilots...think, if it has been decided that armed air marshalls will be on flights to the USA, then they will be on, if the respective foreign aircarrier wants to continue serving US destinations.
Simple as that.
Pilots/unions will not have much of a say in the matter, irrespective of what they may pontificate here.
Companies and governments will decide, and if individual pilots don't like the outcome, all the respective foreign government needs to do is say...either abide by the regulations, or your flying license is hereby cancelled.
Which, oddly enough, is what they do now, when flight crew don't follow regulations.
BALPA will decide? Hardly.
BALPA, and its members, as a collective body, have not been able to decide what time of day it is for the last thirty years....and nothing will be accomplished by them now.
Want to keep flying that shiney new jet airliner, to destinations within the USA?
Do as you are told by the company/CAA/government.
Blair is not going to rock the boat.
Don't like it....vote him out of office.
In case anyone didn't notice, aviation/airlines are a regulated enterprise, rules are put in place for the safety of all concerned, changed from time to time as conditions change.
Dangerous times demand tighter security. And if it is determined that armed air marshalls are needed for enhanced security, they will be provided.
Like it or not...and many will certainly not.
Displeased?....leave the industry.
Simple as that.
Pilots/unions will not have much of a say in the matter, irrespective of what they may pontificate here.
Companies and governments will decide, and if individual pilots don't like the outcome, all the respective foreign government needs to do is say...either abide by the regulations, or your flying license is hereby cancelled.
Which, oddly enough, is what they do now, when flight crew don't follow regulations.
BALPA will decide? Hardly.
BALPA, and its members, as a collective body, have not been able to decide what time of day it is for the last thirty years....and nothing will be accomplished by them now.
Want to keep flying that shiney new jet airliner, to destinations within the USA?
Do as you are told by the company/CAA/government.
Blair is not going to rock the boat.
Don't like it....vote him out of office.
In case anyone didn't notice, aviation/airlines are a regulated enterprise, rules are put in place for the safety of all concerned, changed from time to time as conditions change.
Dangerous times demand tighter security. And if it is determined that armed air marshalls are needed for enhanced security, they will be provided.
Like it or not...and many will certainly not.
Displeased?....leave the industry.
Last edited by 411A; 7th Jan 2004 at 21:31.
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The yanks are losing it...
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Losing it
I read a similar report earlier and almost laughed out loud - thought better of it though as that's probably subject to a US anti-terror ruling now too.
So, what next then in this farce....
So, what next then in this farce....
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'....send pax back to their seats when the line became too long?
Been doing this for a very long time, especially when pax become rather unruly. Flights from Australia come to mind, especially when the beer has run out over Alice Springs, and we still had six hours to go.
It's called....turn on the seat belt sign.
Cabin crew have asked many times for this...nothing new.
Actually, come to think of it, on one flight all the booze was gone by Alice Springs.
Nearly had a riot in back...
Been doing this for a very long time, especially when pax become rather unruly. Flights from Australia come to mind, especially when the beer has run out over Alice Springs, and we still had six hours to go.
It's called....turn on the seat belt sign.
Cabin crew have asked many times for this...nothing new.
Actually, come to think of it, on one flight all the booze was gone by Alice Springs.
Nearly had a riot in back...
Last edited by 411A; 7th Jan 2004 at 22:02.