Alcohol and Flying: The New Law
Join Date: Jul 2001
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bjcc
Thank you for your reply. I hope that I have not given the impression of being somehow liberal on this issue because I am not. What I am saying is that with this dramatically reduced limit, it would be extremely hard to detect within yourself if you are somehow 'over the limit'. At this stage it may be that I will not be able to drink for 2 days before flying - I simply do not know at this stage, and that is my point. For what it is worth, it is my personal intent to never encroach upon whatever legal limits are in force but that does not change the fact that I am concerned that I do not know what these limits are in practice. I stand, therefore, by my view that it would be wise and reasonable for companies to provide self-testing facilities.
Thank you for your reply. I hope that I have not given the impression of being somehow liberal on this issue because I am not. What I am saying is that with this dramatically reduced limit, it would be extremely hard to detect within yourself if you are somehow 'over the limit'. At this stage it may be that I will not be able to drink for 2 days before flying - I simply do not know at this stage, and that is my point. For what it is worth, it is my personal intent to never encroach upon whatever legal limits are in force but that does not change the fact that I am concerned that I do not know what these limits are in practice. I stand, therefore, by my view that it would be wise and reasonable for companies to provide self-testing facilities.
BEagle, I remeber that tw@t. I was just as p1ssed as he was - but I wasn't operating! All I had to do was sleep on the way home. As I remeber it, you didn't have to say anything - the silence spoke words!
The funny incident regarding that night out was the large Welsh FO who failed to get laid. Perhaps it was his trick of setting fire to his chest hair in the bar that caused that!
Remember the inert hand grenade?
The funny incident regarding that night out was the large Welsh FO who failed to get laid. Perhaps it was his trick of setting fire to his chest hair in the bar that caused that!
Remember the inert hand grenade?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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>>I once had a U/T co-pilot who had partyed all night at Bangor - even woke me up at o-dark-hundred by yelling in the corridor outside my room - who then had to catch the 0730 wheels with us. He stank like a brewery. So he didn't get any operating on the entire leg, just the radio. <<
Well, the good old days of laughing about covering for a drunk cockpit colleague are pretty much gone in the U.S.
We've lived with the .02% BAC limit for a decade now (.02% removal from duty, .04% you lose your medical and, starting in a few days, your ticket as well under FAA rules).
As observed here, it will infringe upon the "lifestyle" of many crewmembers.
Well, the good old days of laughing about covering for a drunk cockpit colleague are pretty much gone in the U.S.
We've lived with the .02% BAC limit for a decade now (.02% removal from duty, .04% you lose your medical and, starting in a few days, your ticket as well under FAA rules).
As observed here, it will infringe upon the "lifestyle" of many crewmembers.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Norman Stanley Fletcher,
The reason why there is no guidence on what you can and can't drink is because its not possible to do with any certainty. Today you could drink X amount and in 2 hours not be over, in a weeks time you could drink the same and find yourself in the poo. Which I think is maybe what you are saying. No Goverment, CAA or Airline is going to give you an amount for guidence, because as soon as someone sticks to it and finds they blow over the magic number what do you think they are going to claim in court?
I don't doubt for one minute that no ones going out with the intent to drink and fly.
I agree with you about having a way of self testing, although I would think that Airlines are going to say its your problem not ours. The other thing with that is that as soon as you turn up for duty you could be(and this hasn't been tested in court yet) be seen to be proforming an ancilary function, in which case you commit the offence. An airline isn't going to want you to do that, as they could be seen as condoning it.
So you have a problem of where to site this descreet self testing idea. To be honest if I was affected by this I would buy a screening machine, cost of that against eliminating the risk seems good value to me.
The reason why there is no guidence on what you can and can't drink is because its not possible to do with any certainty. Today you could drink X amount and in 2 hours not be over, in a weeks time you could drink the same and find yourself in the poo. Which I think is maybe what you are saying. No Goverment, CAA or Airline is going to give you an amount for guidence, because as soon as someone sticks to it and finds they blow over the magic number what do you think they are going to claim in court?
I don't doubt for one minute that no ones going out with the intent to drink and fly.
I agree with you about having a way of self testing, although I would think that Airlines are going to say its your problem not ours. The other thing with that is that as soon as you turn up for duty you could be(and this hasn't been tested in court yet) be seen to be proforming an ancilary function, in which case you commit the offence. An airline isn't going to want you to do that, as they could be seen as condoning it.
So you have a problem of where to site this descreet self testing idea. To be honest if I was affected by this I would buy a screening machine, cost of that against eliminating the risk seems good value to me.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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You only have to look at the dec 1998 arrest at LHR of a senior royal brunei captain for drugs to recognize that the industry does have a problem it is not addressing. when said pilot subsequently provided the DFO with a report on what was going on and implicated seven other captains as well as many cabin crew and some engineers, what did they do about it? yep nothing. several of these scum are still employed there while others went to bigger and better jobs. Their only other action was to shut down all publicity at a great cost. universal alcohol/drug testing across the whole industry is the only answer.has there been a case of an airline pilot actually flying a jet while intoxicated on drugs/alcohol? im afraid to tell you the answer is yes.
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A Good idea, but prefer routine testing to random. everyone, every flight, every day. Not difficult or time consuming really...helmet on, flack jacket on....Incommingggggg!! 
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Why not? If you have nothing to hide that is?
Lets face it, we run the risk of a breath test every time we drive to work!
Initial breath test as in police road side tests - if positive secondary and far more in depth tests by medical staff. The only point I would ask for, would be to keep a sample of my sample for independant and neutral testing, should the need arise.
Lets face it, we run the risk of a breath test every time we drive to work!
Initial breath test as in police road side tests - if positive secondary and far more in depth tests by medical staff. The only point I would ask for, would be to keep a sample of my sample for independant and neutral testing, should the need arise.
Join Date: May 1999
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Test pax before boarding
Why all this furor? I have far more issues with pissed passengers (plenty in fact) than pissed co-pilots (none so far).
I think a far greater problem is identifying drunken passengers prior to boarding. I find it amusing that an industry (of "news" reporters) that is well known for its inability to drink moderately at any point of the day should so self-righteously become obsessed with going to extreme and outrageous lengths to destroy in most, and occasionally all, senses an aviator or other high profile person.
Where is all the outrage at child molesting singers?
Where is all the outrage over deaths on the table caused by drunken or drugged up doctors and surgeons?
This guy didn't even touch a control - he may have been coming in on time to request a delay on the departure, due to feeling impaired. Did he get a chance to do this? When was he considered to have reported for duty? Several people had several opportunities to be up close with this guy prior to him arriving at the altar of obese and grotesque "Thousands Standing Around". So he stumbled? I would have felt my knees buckling once I knew I was in extremis and being humiliated by the second.
When are the reading public going to start understanding that alcoholism (if that is the case here) is indeed a disease and that a good dose of education, intervention and sympathy is the way to go - not executions by tabloid.
Heres to good old double standards.
Off for a Jack on ice - too much stress reading too much crap on all this.
Cheers!
I think a far greater problem is identifying drunken passengers prior to boarding. I find it amusing that an industry (of "news" reporters) that is well known for its inability to drink moderately at any point of the day should so self-righteously become obsessed with going to extreme and outrageous lengths to destroy in most, and occasionally all, senses an aviator or other high profile person.
Where is all the outrage at child molesting singers?
Where is all the outrage over deaths on the table caused by drunken or drugged up doctors and surgeons?
This guy didn't even touch a control - he may have been coming in on time to request a delay on the departure, due to feeling impaired. Did he get a chance to do this? When was he considered to have reported for duty? Several people had several opportunities to be up close with this guy prior to him arriving at the altar of obese and grotesque "Thousands Standing Around". So he stumbled? I would have felt my knees buckling once I knew I was in extremis and being humiliated by the second.
When are the reading public going to start understanding that alcoholism (if that is the case here) is indeed a disease and that a good dose of education, intervention and sympathy is the way to go - not executions by tabloid.
Heres to good old double standards.
Off for a Jack on ice - too much stress reading too much crap on all this.
Cheers!
Join Date: Aug 2003
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If down route, the morning after, and one of these self test machines shows some residual alcohol, but not too specific, do you go sick and the flight is lost costing tens of thousands? Do you phone the Chief Pilot and expect sympathy?
Perhaps a bit of practice with these machines might give you some idea but they're never going to be accurate enough.
Perhaps a bit of practice with these machines might give you some idea but they're never going to be accurate enough.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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BEagle/Dan Winterland,
Oddly enough I remember that evening too. However, if my memory serves me correctly then it was that tall,"Aryan" looking navigator who prevented anyone from getting lucky; girls are just soooo shallow- all they were interested in was looks! Well, the navigator and that geographically challenged american @#$*! to be strictly accurate
Regards to you both
"Mighty Buttocks".
PS I can now spell "Officer Qualities"
Oddly enough I remember that evening too. However, if my memory serves me correctly then it was that tall,"Aryan" looking navigator who prevented anyone from getting lucky; girls are just soooo shallow- all they were interested in was looks! Well, the navigator and that geographically challenged american @#$*! to be strictly accurate
Regards to you both
"Mighty Buttocks".
PS I can now spell "Officer Qualities"
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With a report for a New Year's day flight, I am again in for a New Year's Eve of watching the party around me in a sober detached state of surrealism! Very similar to my 8am LHR depart on the first day of the new millenium! At least it makes me popular for saving the impossible task of finding a taxi on NYeve.
Anyway, I was at least hoping to get a drink the night 24hours before, but I too am becoming concerned at the low level of the limit at 20mg. Having checked the specs of the various breathalizers on the market, it is apparent that their accuracy is at such a level to be unreliable at the low limits. Even the high tech versions which cope with the driving limit in Sweden (also 20mg) only start at 20mg as the lowest available reading in their range at plus/minus 10mg accuracy. If the authorities are not using incredibly high spec breath testers ( are there any?), then some of us are bound to be falsely tested positive before the blood test proves our innocence, but no doubt that will look to our peers and company like we "got away with it !"
Therefore, I would agree with all the posters who have stated that their concerns are not against the principle of ensuring non alcohol impaired operation, but with the level and manner of its enforcement. I would also agree with all the comments that fatigue is a far more real and present danger to flight safety than this "headline" issue.
I only hope that if we do have a sky marshall on board, he will have had as a quiet a night as me.
Anyway, I was at least hoping to get a drink the night 24hours before, but I too am becoming concerned at the low level of the limit at 20mg. Having checked the specs of the various breathalizers on the market, it is apparent that their accuracy is at such a level to be unreliable at the low limits. Even the high tech versions which cope with the driving limit in Sweden (also 20mg) only start at 20mg as the lowest available reading in their range at plus/minus 10mg accuracy. If the authorities are not using incredibly high spec breath testers ( are there any?), then some of us are bound to be falsely tested positive before the blood test proves our innocence, but no doubt that will look to our peers and company like we "got away with it !"
Therefore, I would agree with all the posters who have stated that their concerns are not against the principle of ensuring non alcohol impaired operation, but with the level and manner of its enforcement. I would also agree with all the comments that fatigue is a far more real and present danger to flight safety than this "headline" issue.
I only hope that if we do have a sky marshall on board, he will have had as a quiet a night as me.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Growing number of pilots turn to drink to cope with stress
THE OBSERVER , LONDON
Monday, Dec 29, 2003,Page 7
Soaring stress levels among commercial airline pilots are leading to an alarming rise in drinking problems.
Pressure caused by long hours, cost-cutting following the growth of no-frills airlines and security measures to combat terrorism have all added to the numbers of those turning to alcohol, according to pilots, airline staff and aviation experts.
One stewardess revealed how heavy drinking the night before a flight was not uncommon. The 24-year-old from Manchester, who works for a large international airline, said: "I have been taken out by a pilot who has drunk half a bottle of wine at dinner, had a few beers and shooters and then gone back to his room with a bottle of vodka. He was due to fly again the following day."
One ex-pilot, who now specializes in the human factors associated with flight, said: "The Civil Aviation Authority are very concerned -- everything is about money, cutting costs and pushing hours up. It leads to fatigue, which itself can be highly dangerous and it leads to an increased prevalence of alcoholism. People succumb to stress and deal with it in the classic way -- by abusing themselves."
The revelations come a week after a Virgin Atlantic pilot was accused of being drunk in charge of a jumbo jet. Captain [redacted], 55, has been released on bail and is due to appear in court next February. Only a month earlier two British Airways pilots resigned after being arrested at Oslo airport on suspicion of being drunk.
But the deeper problem appears not to be that of pilots being drunk while flying but the numbers who are turning to alcohol to deal with the strains of the job. The industry is trying to ensure that new pilots are less likely to fall into the trap. Those training are now taught about how to keep an eye out if a colleague appears to be having problems. Notes given out to students include things to watch out for such as "drinking alone, gulping down the first drink, morning shakes and a high tolerance to alcohol."
Kate Keenan, a business psychologist who specializes in mental health and alcohol, said: "With the remote working that pilots do with no checks, people are more likely to slip into a habit without anyone realizing. Add this to the long hours and stress and you can see why this job carries a large risk of alcoholism. People need to be educated to really know how much alcohol will affect them and what a unit actually is. Companies are screaming for random testing, but they have to support workers first."
The British Air Line Pilots' Association (Balpa) says there needs to be a more co-operative system. Jim McAuslan, Balpa's general secretary, said: "This is our number one priority. We strongly believe there should be a system where any pilot can try and persuade another to go to a neutral board where they don't lose their job but get help. In the UK admitting to being an alcoholic would result in the sack.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worl.../29/2003085596
THE OBSERVER , LONDON
Monday, Dec 29, 2003,Page 7
Soaring stress levels among commercial airline pilots are leading to an alarming rise in drinking problems.
Pressure caused by long hours, cost-cutting following the growth of no-frills airlines and security measures to combat terrorism have all added to the numbers of those turning to alcohol, according to pilots, airline staff and aviation experts.
One stewardess revealed how heavy drinking the night before a flight was not uncommon. The 24-year-old from Manchester, who works for a large international airline, said: "I have been taken out by a pilot who has drunk half a bottle of wine at dinner, had a few beers and shooters and then gone back to his room with a bottle of vodka. He was due to fly again the following day."
One ex-pilot, who now specializes in the human factors associated with flight, said: "The Civil Aviation Authority are very concerned -- everything is about money, cutting costs and pushing hours up. It leads to fatigue, which itself can be highly dangerous and it leads to an increased prevalence of alcoholism. People succumb to stress and deal with it in the classic way -- by abusing themselves."
The revelations come a week after a Virgin Atlantic pilot was accused of being drunk in charge of a jumbo jet. Captain [redacted], 55, has been released on bail and is due to appear in court next February. Only a month earlier two British Airways pilots resigned after being arrested at Oslo airport on suspicion of being drunk.
But the deeper problem appears not to be that of pilots being drunk while flying but the numbers who are turning to alcohol to deal with the strains of the job. The industry is trying to ensure that new pilots are less likely to fall into the trap. Those training are now taught about how to keep an eye out if a colleague appears to be having problems. Notes given out to students include things to watch out for such as "drinking alone, gulping down the first drink, morning shakes and a high tolerance to alcohol."
Kate Keenan, a business psychologist who specializes in mental health and alcohol, said: "With the remote working that pilots do with no checks, people are more likely to slip into a habit without anyone realizing. Add this to the long hours and stress and you can see why this job carries a large risk of alcoholism. People need to be educated to really know how much alcohol will affect them and what a unit actually is. Companies are screaming for random testing, but they have to support workers first."
The British Air Line Pilots' Association (Balpa) says there needs to be a more co-operative system. Jim McAuslan, Balpa's general secretary, said: "This is our number one priority. We strongly believe there should be a system where any pilot can try and persuade another to go to a neutral board where they don't lose their job but get help. In the UK admitting to being an alcoholic would result in the sack.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worl.../29/2003085596
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Bertie Thruster
The new law will not apply to military pilots.
Mil pilots are subject to military regulations.
Tudor Owen
BTW, Airbubba
It may make no difference to your proposition that the new law "will infringe upon the "lifestyle" of many crewmembers" but, for the record, I think BEagle and Dan were reminiscing about old mil days, not covering for crew members in civilian airliners.
The new law will not apply to military pilots.
Mil pilots are subject to military regulations.
Tudor Owen
BTW, Airbubba
It may make no difference to your proposition that the new law "will infringe upon the "lifestyle" of many crewmembers" but, for the record, I think BEagle and Dan were reminiscing about old mil days, not covering for crew members in civilian airliners.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Flyer Flier
Your right in so far as the hand held machines are concerned. The ones in Police Stations will mesure the amounts for the new acts prescribed limit. As I said before blood tests usualy in my expereince came back higher than the breath test machines.
Your right in so far as the hand held machines are concerned. The ones in Police Stations will mesure the amounts for the new acts prescribed limit. As I said before blood tests usualy in my expereince came back higher than the breath test machines.
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So if the stress is the root of the problem then solve the problem that causes the stress.
BETTER ROSTERING.
STABLE ROSTER.
HALF DECENT SALARIES.
NO MORE MINIMUM REST IN HOTELS WHERE THERE IS A RAGING PARTY GOING ON NEXT DOOR, WHICH LEADS YOU TO HAVE A FEW TO GET TO SLEEP.
And don't start on the "Well ask if you can have a different room then" routine because that all depends on
1. The Time of year.
2. What sort of Hotel you are in.
And while we are on the subject of sleep, if my memory serves me correct, Her Majesties Government are not shy of prescribing "Drugs Various" to either assist crews in getting to sleep or to keep them awake!
The List goes on.............
At least have a level playing field so as everybody knows where they stand.
As some one has already mentioned " life style" is being affected
It wont be long before certain routes that attract more heavier screening will also attract more crews going sick on said routes.
Short haul springs to mind where Crew A who have perhaps not indulged for say 24 hrs but had been to say Capt "X" leaving do 48 hrs previous, still dont think they would be legal under the new legislation.
They call in sick just to be on "The Safe Side"
If the authorities want this level of testing then there MUST BE a way that one can self test without the fear of being pulled up on an "Ancilliary Duty Rap" to do so.
Rant over.
BETTER ROSTERING.
STABLE ROSTER.
HALF DECENT SALARIES.
NO MORE MINIMUM REST IN HOTELS WHERE THERE IS A RAGING PARTY GOING ON NEXT DOOR, WHICH LEADS YOU TO HAVE A FEW TO GET TO SLEEP.
And don't start on the "Well ask if you can have a different room then" routine because that all depends on
1. The Time of year.
2. What sort of Hotel you are in.
And while we are on the subject of sleep, if my memory serves me correct, Her Majesties Government are not shy of prescribing "Drugs Various" to either assist crews in getting to sleep or to keep them awake!
The List goes on.............
At least have a level playing field so as everybody knows where they stand.
As some one has already mentioned " life style" is being affected
It wont be long before certain routes that attract more heavier screening will also attract more crews going sick on said routes.
Short haul springs to mind where Crew A who have perhaps not indulged for say 24 hrs but had been to say Capt "X" leaving do 48 hrs previous, still dont think they would be legal under the new legislation.
They call in sick just to be on "The Safe Side"
If the authorities want this level of testing then there MUST BE a way that one can self test without the fear of being pulled up on an "Ancilliary Duty Rap" to do so.
Rant over.
Thanks Flying Lawyer, I thought as much, (after all they don't have licences anyway)
Still if they don't change the Mil regs it will make a good headline:
"Military pilots in the UK to be allowed 4 times the new alcohol limit."
Still if they don't change the Mil regs it will make a good headline:
"Military pilots in the UK to be allowed 4 times the new alcohol limit."
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The future?
A hand held device that measures alcohol, drugs and basic competency
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994394
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994394