Alcohol and Flying: The New Law
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bjcc
Thanks for the comments. Firstly, why can't Surgeons/Doctors have this law be enforced upon them? It would raise the same outcry as what is being imposed on Aviation Professionals now. To say they are a law to themselves is not acceptable. Boat drivers, "vague recollections". What do you mean? Either they have some form of lgislation or not. Maybe a company rule just like most airlines or a vague statement to cover any possibilities, like the ANO.What is the legislation covering train drivers? Is this a company rule or a law?
I'm not trying to say that Pilots/ATCO's?Engineers are being singled out, but to be fair, if the Aviation industry is being subjected to a drink/drugs law then other industries should be looked at as well. The other thing which concerns me is (as said before), can a certain profession be singled out for legislation?
I await your comments,
ILS 119.5
Thanks for the comments. Firstly, why can't Surgeons/Doctors have this law be enforced upon them? It would raise the same outcry as what is being imposed on Aviation Professionals now. To say they are a law to themselves is not acceptable. Boat drivers, "vague recollections". What do you mean? Either they have some form of lgislation or not. Maybe a company rule just like most airlines or a vague statement to cover any possibilities, like the ANO.What is the legislation covering train drivers? Is this a company rule or a law?
I'm not trying to say that Pilots/ATCO's?Engineers are being singled out, but to be fair, if the Aviation industry is being subjected to a drink/drugs law then other industries should be looked at as well. The other thing which concerns me is (as said before), can a certain profession be singled out for legislation?
I await your comments,
ILS 119.5
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Railway workers are covered by Part 2 of the Transport and Works Act 1992. Ship crew are covered by Part 4 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act, the same Act that covers aviation personnel.
Plastic PPRuNer
Why do I get the feeling that the introduction of these new, very low residual limits are not about impairment at such, but rather that it is a feeling that "something must be done" - never mind exactly what or in which direction.
Is there really any hard evidence that currently professional pilots are putting their passengers or hulls at risk to any significant degree or in any significant numbers as a result of alcohol abuse and must be stopped? How many reputable airlines have had an adverse incident in the last ten years that was attributable to alcohol impairment?
Like tunalic2 says, "I think that you commercial pilots are having a hard time of it, you sit alone in your offices for up to 8/12 hrs with no visitors anymore perhaps looking forward to a couple or three pints later as an opportunity for a little social interaction...... but no more".
Are these very small alcohol residues any more impairing than a cold or a sick child at home, or chronic fatigue, moving house, getting divorced or the thousand different distractions that assail us all at one time or another?
Of course, the law is the law and we must now all follow it, but was there any real need for this? Will it make flying significantly safer?
Is there really any hard evidence that currently professional pilots are putting their passengers or hulls at risk to any significant degree or in any significant numbers as a result of alcohol abuse and must be stopped? How many reputable airlines have had an adverse incident in the last ten years that was attributable to alcohol impairment?
Like tunalic2 says, "I think that you commercial pilots are having a hard time of it, you sit alone in your offices for up to 8/12 hrs with no visitors anymore perhaps looking forward to a couple or three pints later as an opportunity for a little social interaction...... but no more".
Are these very small alcohol residues any more impairing than a cold or a sick child at home, or chronic fatigue, moving house, getting divorced or the thousand different distractions that assail us all at one time or another?
Of course, the law is the law and we must now all follow it, but was there any real need for this? Will it make flying significantly safer?
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119.5
Someone beat me to the answers on Train Drivers and Boat crews. So no they are not company rules they are subject to much the same legislation as the aviation industry. The reason I had a vague recolection was that there arn't many boats at Heathrow which is where I worked last a policeman. The British Transport Police cover the railways so thats not something I dealt with much either.
Ok can a group be singled out? Well, I don't think they are, it seems that most transport workers are subject to much the same thing.
Regarding Doctors, try sueing one and seeing if you can get another to give direct evidence against one of thier own. As at some stage you would need some medical evidence, then you are on a loser. I'm not saying its right, there may even be some odd peice of legislation that covers it I don't know.
At the end of the day, if you don't like the legislation then write to your MP, outline your reasons, and I am sure he will give it his undevided attention.
Someone beat me to the answers on Train Drivers and Boat crews. So no they are not company rules they are subject to much the same legislation as the aviation industry. The reason I had a vague recolection was that there arn't many boats at Heathrow which is where I worked last a policeman. The British Transport Police cover the railways so thats not something I dealt with much either.
Ok can a group be singled out? Well, I don't think they are, it seems that most transport workers are subject to much the same thing.
Regarding Doctors, try sueing one and seeing if you can get another to give direct evidence against one of thier own. As at some stage you would need some medical evidence, then you are on a loser. I'm not saying its right, there may even be some odd peice of legislation that covers it I don't know.
At the end of the day, if you don't like the legislation then write to your MP, outline your reasons, and I am sure he will give it his undevided attention.
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I can see all points of view and I am not bothered either way, if the law says that it is so then it it is. I am just writing this after watching the CH4 programme called "p*****d on the job" which highlights resposible people being pissed whilst carrying out their functions. This includes Doctors. Are there any pilots/controllers/engineers on this programme. No. In my view if a law is passed then it should be for everyone and not for an individual profession.
bjcc
thanks, I don't think I'll write to my MP, too busy trying to live my life.
Cathar,
If you have time can you please let me know what these Acts are, especially the one covering aviation personnel. I only work to the ANO for the legal aspects. But it would be interesting to know what other professions (especially skippers) are subject to.
I still think BALPA/GATCO should have more input into this before it becomes law, (if they can).
bjcc
thanks, I don't think I'll write to my MP, too busy trying to live my life.
Cathar,
If you have time can you please let me know what these Acts are, especially the one covering aviation personnel. I only work to the ANO for the legal aspects. But it would be interesting to know what other professions (especially skippers) are subject to.
I still think BALPA/GATCO should have more input into this before it becomes law, (if they can).
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Transport and Works Act 1992 (see Part 2 Chapter 1 sections 26 to 40) can be found at: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1992...20042_en_1.htm
The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (see Part 4, sections 78 to 91 for Shipping and Part 5, sections 92 to 102 for aviation) can be found at: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030020.htm
The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (see Part 4, sections 78 to 91 for Shipping and Part 5, sections 92 to 102 for aviation) can be found at: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030020.htm
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If you have time can you please let me know what these Acts are, especially the one covering aviation personnel.
Apart from certain distracting posts, the entire thread is about the new law as it affects UK CAA regulated aviation personnel.
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New drink tests for aircrews tomorrow
I know there has been a great deal written on this subject here, but was just reading the Telegraph when I saw the following:
Stringent alcohol limits for airline pilots are to be introduced tomorrow, with legal levels four times lower than those for motorists.
The limit for pilots, cabin crew and air traffic controllers will be set at 20 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood - the equivalent of less than half a pint of beer or a small glass of wine. Drivers are permitted up to 80mg - about a pint and a half of beer.
Under the regulations, police could carry out breath tests, with anyone found in breach of the law facing dismissal. Courts would also have the power to fine or imprison offenders.
However, random tests will not be permitted following opposition from the British Airline Pilots Association.
The legislation - part of the Railways and Transport Safety Act - was unveiled last year and will come into immediate effect following an announcement by the Government tomorrow. It will cover any aircraft in UK airspace and UK-registered planes anywhere in the world.
The measure will provide a clear limit for all flight staff.
At present Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) guidelines suggest that aircrew "must not be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair their capacity".
Airlines currently operate their own regulations, with British Airways's policy stating that air personnel should only drink in moderation in the 24 hours before flight and abstain in the final eight hours. These will remain unaffected by the legislation.
"What this gives is a prescribed threshold. It is very important to tighten up the already high standards with aviation security to make sure that flying is as safe as possible," said a source at the Department for Transport.
The CAA will be informed of any flight crew who fail breath tests, allowing them to withdraw their licence.
The legislation will also cover professional mariners, who will be subject to the same 80mg alcohol limit as road users. It is expected to be extended to cover recreational sailors following further consultation.
I know that in 99.9% of the time it is no problem, and usually gets dealt with if found out. I would like to know that if this is not random testing how will the police decide who to check. I would assume it would continue to be when someone reports the person they suspect as being over the limit?
Stringent alcohol limits for airline pilots are to be introduced tomorrow, with legal levels four times lower than those for motorists.
The limit for pilots, cabin crew and air traffic controllers will be set at 20 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood - the equivalent of less than half a pint of beer or a small glass of wine. Drivers are permitted up to 80mg - about a pint and a half of beer.
Under the regulations, police could carry out breath tests, with anyone found in breach of the law facing dismissal. Courts would also have the power to fine or imprison offenders.
However, random tests will not be permitted following opposition from the British Airline Pilots Association.
The legislation - part of the Railways and Transport Safety Act - was unveiled last year and will come into immediate effect following an announcement by the Government tomorrow. It will cover any aircraft in UK airspace and UK-registered planes anywhere in the world.
The measure will provide a clear limit for all flight staff.
At present Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) guidelines suggest that aircrew "must not be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair their capacity".
Airlines currently operate their own regulations, with British Airways's policy stating that air personnel should only drink in moderation in the 24 hours before flight and abstain in the final eight hours. These will remain unaffected by the legislation.
"What this gives is a prescribed threshold. It is very important to tighten up the already high standards with aviation security to make sure that flying is as safe as possible," said a source at the Department for Transport.
The CAA will be informed of any flight crew who fail breath tests, allowing them to withdraw their licence.
The legislation will also cover professional mariners, who will be subject to the same 80mg alcohol limit as road users. It is expected to be extended to cover recreational sailors following further consultation.
I know that in 99.9% of the time it is no problem, and usually gets dealt with if found out. I would like to know that if this is not random testing how will the police decide who to check. I would assume it would continue to be when someone reports the person they suspect as being over the limit?
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I have been led to believe that this level of alcohol is so minute, that even a non drinker (when faced with a stressful situation) will possibly attain this level through the body's own inner workings. Can anyone confirm this? If is this is the case then its probably time for most of us (Pilots and ATCO's alike) to hang up our headsets and start a new career!
k
k
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I guess this means that drinking for easyJet will mean Orange juice from now on and Ryanair may as well take the harp from the fin and put it back on the stout bottle.
(Yes, I know FR's an Irish company and not subject to UK legislation, but on the day they ban smoking in Paddy pubs, anything could happen.)
confundemus
(Yes, I know FR's an Irish company and not subject to UK legislation, but on the day they ban smoking in Paddy pubs, anything could happen.)
confundemus
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The limit for Railway staff is set at 30mg/100mm blood within the Industry.
This limit allows for the natural level of alcohol that can be found in the blood and prevents 'false' positive. The body produces alcohol at varying levels naturally (as it was explained to us) and therefore it is impossible to get a 'safe' zero level.
With regards to testing, we have five testing secenarios.
1 Pre-employment/Transfer Screening
2 Transfer to a Railway Safety Critical Post
3 Random Screening - which is done by a computer programme remotely from the line of management. 48 hours notice is given and you are released from duty to attend.
4 Post Incident Screening - this occurs after any incident when a person has been directly involved in an incident/near miss/accident.
5 For Cause Screening - which is implemented in the event that you give someone due cause for concern that you may be under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
A refusal to be screened under 3,4, and 5 above is classed as a 'Test Failure' with immediate suspension followed by Disciplinary action which will almost certainly result in dismissal and banning from further employment within the Industry.
A refusal to test under 1 and 2 above results in your application being declined.
All testing is both for drugs and alcohol.
We are advised not to drink within 24 hours of duty, and NEVER within 8 hours of duty.
Just to clarify these arrangements apply to the Railway Industry, I have no idea what the arrangements for the Aviation Sector may be but the above may be of benefit.
It is rare that we get a failure for alcohol. Drugs is the far more sinister failure as it is in some cases not posible to identify someone who is potentially affected. We tend to find these after a Random or Post Incident screen.
Trust this helps.
Happy to give more info if requested
Cheers
This limit allows for the natural level of alcohol that can be found in the blood and prevents 'false' positive. The body produces alcohol at varying levels naturally (as it was explained to us) and therefore it is impossible to get a 'safe' zero level.
With regards to testing, we have five testing secenarios.
1 Pre-employment/Transfer Screening
2 Transfer to a Railway Safety Critical Post
3 Random Screening - which is done by a computer programme remotely from the line of management. 48 hours notice is given and you are released from duty to attend.
4 Post Incident Screening - this occurs after any incident when a person has been directly involved in an incident/near miss/accident.
5 For Cause Screening - which is implemented in the event that you give someone due cause for concern that you may be under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
A refusal to be screened under 3,4, and 5 above is classed as a 'Test Failure' with immediate suspension followed by Disciplinary action which will almost certainly result in dismissal and banning from further employment within the Industry.
A refusal to test under 1 and 2 above results in your application being declined.
All testing is both for drugs and alcohol.
We are advised not to drink within 24 hours of duty, and NEVER within 8 hours of duty.
Just to clarify these arrangements apply to the Railway Industry, I have no idea what the arrangements for the Aviation Sector may be but the above may be of benefit.
It is rare that we get a failure for alcohol. Drugs is the far more sinister failure as it is in some cases not posible to identify someone who is potentially affected. We tend to find these after a Random or Post Incident screen.
Trust this helps.
Happy to give more info if requested
Cheers
Last edited by Bletchley; 30th Mar 2004 at 18:29.
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New drink tests for aircrews tomorrow
So, no random testing at all and 48 hours notice otherwise! Usual political "initiative" which will lead nowhere and impress only the ignorant. In my 28 years at the front-end I never once was aware of flight-deck or CC the worse for drinking. On the other hand, I'd need a hundred hands to count the number of football-shirted pi**-head pax who should have been breath-tested. bm
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"What this gives is a prescribed threshold. It is very important to tighten up the already high standards with aviation security to make sure that flying is as safe as possible," said a source at the Department for Transport.
.........while conveniently ignoring the real safety threat of fatigue
........
.........while conveniently ignoring the real safety threat of fatigue
........
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Diesel8, the point is that there is now a quantitative guide. More than 20mg - under the influence. Less than 20 - not.
Much clearer than the ANO article 65, '...crew..shall not be under the influence of drink (or a drug) such as to impair his capacity to act'.
It could even be a protection of sorts to yourself against baseless accusations.
Much clearer than the ANO article 65, '...crew..shall not be under the influence of drink (or a drug) such as to impair his capacity to act'.
It could even be a protection of sorts to yourself against baseless accusations.
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I certainly understand the need for a guideline, although imho, any alcohol, other than naturally occuring, while undertaking flying is wrong.
In the US, IIRC it is premployment, post accident, probable cause and random. Well, random is just that, your number gets picked and of you go, no 48 hour notice. Which to me, if you are going to do it, makes a lot more sense than advising someone 2 days prior.
As far as being accused of it. Should that happen, I will not fly the airplane, until such time, I have had a test, at which point, I will return and should I not have been replaced, I will have the accuser removed fom the aircraft.
In the US, IIRC it is premployment, post accident, probable cause and random. Well, random is just that, your number gets picked and of you go, no 48 hour notice. Which to me, if you are going to do it, makes a lot more sense than advising someone 2 days prior.
As far as being accused of it. Should that happen, I will not fly the airplane, until such time, I have had a test, at which point, I will return and should I not have been replaced, I will have the accuser removed fom the aircraft.
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Careful people...
The new act DOES NOT give you 48 hours notice.
Please read the first page, Flying Lawyers summery.
If a Police Officer suspects you have a blood alcohol concentration above the prescribed limit he can require you to take a breath test THEN. There is no provision for a 48 hour wait, and if you refuse you are liable to arrest.
Also please don't confuse the 'under the influence' and having a Blood alcohol concentration above the prescibed level, the 2 things don't mean the same.
There is no provision in the new act for 'random' testing, nor is there any under the Road Traffic Acts, which is what this is based on, but I can assure you that there are ways and means of administering what is in effect a random test....
There is NO safe way, apart from not drinking of working out if you are over the new limit, unless you have invested in a breath test machine of your own. Even then, that only gives a reading at that moment, you could still be going up.
The new act DOES NOT give you 48 hours notice.
Please read the first page, Flying Lawyers summery.
If a Police Officer suspects you have a blood alcohol concentration above the prescribed limit he can require you to take a breath test THEN. There is no provision for a 48 hour wait, and if you refuse you are liable to arrest.
Also please don't confuse the 'under the influence' and having a Blood alcohol concentration above the prescibed level, the 2 things don't mean the same.
There is no provision in the new act for 'random' testing, nor is there any under the Road Traffic Acts, which is what this is based on, but I can assure you that there are ways and means of administering what is in effect a random test....
There is NO safe way, apart from not drinking of working out if you are over the new limit, unless you have invested in a breath test machine of your own. Even then, that only gives a reading at that moment, you could still be going up.
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Yes, the new limit is now in force.
It applies to all UK registered aircraft crews worldwide [unless a foreign country has even more severe limits - in which case this lower limit will apply], and anybody flying in UK airspace
It applies to all UK registered aircraft crews worldwide [unless a foreign country has even more severe limits - in which case this lower limit will apply], and anybody flying in UK airspace