Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times
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Remember guys, don' t get too personal with companies or local gripes. This is meant to apply to all companies.
Just because they may not have adopted a LCC policy, dosen't mean they don't plan to and this may just stop them going any further.
Just because they may not have adopted a LCC policy, dosen't mean they don't plan to and this may just stop them going any further.
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One other point - Has anyone else found unrealistic block times are being rostered for flights? A few of our sectors have a block time of say 2 hours, with a still air flight time of 1:50. I don't know what the guidelines are, but it takes 5 mins to push back and start, not even allowing for taxy. Any kind of holding point delay or headwind and you are going to be late. Obviously this is important as CAP 371 FDPs are applicable to ROSTERED flight times.
I don't necessarily believe this is the reason for the times being chosen, it may be due to slot times etc. but it does often mean we are being rostered closer to the FDP on occasions than it might appear, and increases the chance of going into discretion.
It often seems to be tightest when you have an aircraft swap etc. as well. On this subject, I guess unrealistic turn around times fall into this category as well.
I don't necessarily believe this is the reason for the times being chosen, it may be due to slot times etc. but it does often mean we are being rostered closer to the FDP on occasions than it might appear, and increases the chance of going into discretion.
It often seems to be tightest when you have an aircraft swap etc. as well. On this subject, I guess unrealistic turn around times fall into this category as well.
Regarding the issue of whether fatigue has been proven to cause a fatal airliner accident in the UK we should remind ourselves of the 1996 AAIB report into the 1994 B737 crash at Coventry.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_502519.hcsp
The report stated that 'The performance of the flight crew was impaired by the affects of tiredness, having completed over 10 hours of flight duty through the night including five flight sectors which included a total of six approaches to land'.
Note that the word 'fatigue' was not used. The crew were merely 'tired'.
Presumably had they been fatigued their performance would have been impaired even further?
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_502519.hcsp
The report stated that 'The performance of the flight crew was impaired by the affects of tiredness, having completed over 10 hours of flight duty through the night including five flight sectors which included a total of six approaches to land'.
Note that the word 'fatigue' was not used. The crew were merely 'tired'.
Presumably had they been fatigued their performance would have been impaired even further?
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The CAA is very concerned about LCCs and their way of playing with CAP 371.
If you are under fatigue or you think that you are working to the FDT limitations you should contact the CAA flight operation policy. You can write to or call Derek Brown in aviation House or, for the Easyjet Pilots, contact the EasyJet's flight Ops inspector also in CAA Flight Ops department.
They deal with all information very Anonymously and they need to hear from you.
We need to look after our health for our own safety before it is too late.
I
If you are under fatigue or you think that you are working to the FDT limitations you should contact the CAA flight operation policy. You can write to or call Derek Brown in aviation House or, for the Easyjet Pilots, contact the EasyJet's flight Ops inspector also in CAA Flight Ops department.
They deal with all information very Anonymously and they need to hear from you.
We need to look after our health for our own safety before it is too late.
I
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yeh yeh yeh.......
yeh yeh yeh....
yeh yeh yeh....
So lets continue to ignore the research and get some pilots to put themselves on the line.
In the nicest possible way of course!
Tell the CAA to do their own research.
NG
yeh yeh yeh....
yeh yeh yeh....
So lets continue to ignore the research and get some pilots to put themselves on the line.
In the nicest possible way of course!
Tell the CAA to do their own research.
NG
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Just in case you wondered who you were working your butts off for the twitching Kiwi sold 500 000 shares yesterday pocketing a cool 750 000 quid and he still has 1.75 million shares left .Dont you just love his orangeness.
Nom de PPRuNe
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Ah yes ! Phone the CAA. Fantastic. 
I did that a few times for a while.
I lost the will to live a few times, too.
Maybe what's needed is a CAP based upon medical/psychological/phisiological/just-plain-logical knowledge, as opposed to a CAP based upon decades old guesswork modified out of recognition by commercial pressures and implemented by YOP teenagers.
But then, common sense never was their strong point.
I did that a few times for a while.
I lost the will to live a few times, too.
Maybe what's needed is a CAP based upon medical/psychological/phisiological/just-plain-logical knowledge, as opposed to a CAP based upon decades old guesswork modified out of recognition by commercial pressures and implemented by YOP teenagers.
But then, common sense never was their strong point.
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Bear in mind that if you choose to contact the CAA on any such matter they will not deal with an anonymous request.
You have to put your name on it. They may then treat it as confidental but, in the first instance, they require your name and company details.
You have to put your name on it. They may then treat it as confidental but, in the first instance, they require your name and company details.
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Phone the CAA
The CAA are generally in the management's pocket.
If you phone them you become the whistle blower and we all have seen examples of what happens to them.
The whistle blower is suddenly the problem and is seen as a discontented employee and he is dismissed by spin.
The CAA will tell you to get organised through Balpa to limit duty times and get a rostering agreement.
As I said earlier in my remarks the CAA needs to be proactive the problems are out there but just like everthing in life you have to look for it. The problem of fatigue is out there and the revised CAP 371 or that clown from Brussels Bart Simpson are not going to fix it.
If you phone them you become the whistle blower and we all have seen examples of what happens to them.
The whistle blower is suddenly the problem and is seen as a discontented employee and he is dismissed by spin.
The CAA will tell you to get organised through Balpa to limit duty times and get a rostering agreement.
As I said earlier in my remarks the CAA needs to be proactive the problems are out there but just like everthing in life you have to look for it. The problem of fatigue is out there and the revised CAP 371 or that clown from Brussels Bart Simpson are not going to fix it.
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Keep this going - it is an essential and urgent issue.
Contacting all the suggested people via a pre-written email / fax is not a lot to do and will have great effect. Point them here, refer them to the two reports near the start of this thread, encourage others, non-pilots like myself, to do the same (to MP's, newspapers, airlines, Consumer Association, etc.).
All power to your elbows.
WE (non-pilot with family involvement).
Contacting all the suggested people via a pre-written email / fax is not a lot to do and will have great effect. Point them here, refer them to the two reports near the start of this thread, encourage others, non-pilots like myself, to do the same (to MP's, newspapers, airlines, Consumer Association, etc.).
All power to your elbows.
WE (non-pilot with family involvement).
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As I suggested previously, a collective letter from all of us, formulated on these very pages, sent to the CAA and/or their Medical Department would start the long battle to victory!
No need for Balpa as we all have a valid voice and they can not afford to ignore us. If the noise is loud enough, they will HAVE TO respond.
So, since I have started the letter a few pages ago, feel free to add to it and at the end we'll send it in triplicate.
Go.
No need for Balpa as we all have a valid voice and they can not afford to ignore us. If the noise is loud enough, they will HAVE TO respond.
So, since I have started the letter a few pages ago, feel free to add to it and at the end we'll send it in triplicate.
Go.
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Looks like I'll have to act single handedly after all, since most Tired LOCO Pilots have either gone to bed on this subject or just plane scared to write anything.
Don't we look mighty pathetic?
Don't we look mighty pathetic?
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Well i've not heard anything back from the caa srg as yet , although I have an automated acknowledgement reply.
With ref to haolding hands up, the purpose of the whole industry expressing a concern is so that nobody can be singled out.
We shouldn't be scared of our names getting out anyway, as it really is a safety issue that we are all concerned about.
Come on guys, any one else sent anything??
With ref to haolding hands up, the purpose of the whole industry expressing a concern is so that nobody can be singled out.
We shouldn't be scared of our names getting out anyway, as it really is a safety issue that we are all concerned about.
Come on guys, any one else sent anything??
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Whippersnapper - CAP371 is the problem, its about 30 years out of date and does cause poor rostering patterns let alone what hapens day to day.
Moonraker 1. Tired after a 60 hour week, sure you are, as i have been when i did a 60 hour week (in 5 days normally). If i do a 60 hour week over 7 days then guess what - i then work 12 days on the bounce.. If i stay at work from 0800- 2200 then guess what it just means i get less kip before i come in again at 0800. As i said i dont have the safety card to throw in and i have no issue with that.
Rolling days are a start towards a better(lower) limit and that's all i said, dont start kicking off at me for nothing.
I dont accept your point that the CAA are in Managements Pocket either (judging by the summons i had once to the Belgrano).
The only suggestion i would give to the CAA is to look at the roster patterns not the fact the Pilot flew 101 hrs in a month.
Bugle- Out of order to go the CAA unless you've not written to the Company first, have you?? and what was the reply.
Rat 5 - it was an excellant article and also suggested that any "surplus" crews be kept to maintain roster stability if i remember correctly. Its also a waste of time limiting LCC yearly flying hours as you say.The only way is to bring down the days worked and or reduce weekly duty hours.
Or get a variation!
Moonraker 1. Tired after a 60 hour week, sure you are, as i have been when i did a 60 hour week (in 5 days normally). If i do a 60 hour week over 7 days then guess what - i then work 12 days on the bounce.. If i stay at work from 0800- 2200 then guess what it just means i get less kip before i come in again at 0800. As i said i dont have the safety card to throw in and i have no issue with that.
Rolling days are a start towards a better(lower) limit and that's all i said, dont start kicking off at me for nothing.
I dont accept your point that the CAA are in Managements Pocket either (judging by the summons i had once to the Belgrano).
The only suggestion i would give to the CAA is to look at the roster patterns not the fact the Pilot flew 101 hrs in a month.
Bugle- Out of order to go the CAA unless you've not written to the Company first, have you?? and what was the reply.
Rat 5 - it was an excellant article and also suggested that any "surplus" crews be kept to maintain roster stability if i remember correctly. Its also a waste of time limiting LCC yearly flying hours as you say.The only way is to bring down the days worked and or reduce weekly duty hours.
Or get a variation!
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I've Emailed my local MP twice on this subject but had no reply.(Barbra Follet), CHIRPS has however produced a good response,so if you get bad rosering etc let them have full details!
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Got a proper, personal reply from my MP thanking me and saying he will be back to me shortly after making enquiries - I had made reference to the Times article, this Pprune thread, etc.
How many of you have tried / got a response? (If you want a copy of my message then email me).
No response, of course, from Prescott or Darling - yet!
Keep it up.
WE
How many of you have tried / got a response? (If you want a copy of my message then email me).
No response, of course, from Prescott or Darling - yet!
Keep it up.
WE
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Well! - an apology is owed to Alisair Darling - I received this reply today:
FLIGHT CREW STRESS AND FATIGUE IN LOW COST COMMERCIAL AIR OPERATIONS
Thank you for your e-mail dated 10 January 2004 addressed to Alistair Darling on the subject of flight crew stress and fatigue. I have passed a copy of your e-mail to the Flight Operations Department of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) for their information.
The paper by Dr Simon Bennett that you refer to and comments he has made to this Department incorporate his view that further research is needed into flight crew stress and fatigue. This is in line with current CAA thinking. In 2001 the CAA commissioned QinetiQ (formally DERA) Centre for Human Sciences to conduct research into aircrew alertness during short-haul operations, including the impact of early starts. QinetiQ is recognised as being one of the world leaders in the subject of sleep and fatigue research, and is a founder member of the European Committee for Aircrew Scheduling and Safety (ECASS), which operates under the auspices of the European Transport Safety Council. The QinetiQ report into this research was published in February 2002 (QINETIQ/CHS/PPD/CRO10406/1.0).
Further research into consecutive early starts, conducted by a low cost carrier, is currently planned to take place later this year.
I trust that this reassures you that the CAA is continuing with its research programme into aircrew fatigue issues.
Yours sincerely,
RICHARD EVANS
ASSISTANT POLICY ADVISOR
MULTILATERAL DIVISION 1
DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT
Not sure how the cynics amongst you will interpret this nor what any outcome will be - or how long away. Probably need to keep a degree of pressure on in order to assist focus, as it were, - so letters to your MP, etc. - but it does look as if something is happening.
No doubt observations from professional individuals will assist the research being undertaken - perhaps someone in the know can supply the appropriate address.
Hope this helps,
WE (not a pilot).
FLIGHT CREW STRESS AND FATIGUE IN LOW COST COMMERCIAL AIR OPERATIONS
Thank you for your e-mail dated 10 January 2004 addressed to Alistair Darling on the subject of flight crew stress and fatigue. I have passed a copy of your e-mail to the Flight Operations Department of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) for their information.
The paper by Dr Simon Bennett that you refer to and comments he has made to this Department incorporate his view that further research is needed into flight crew stress and fatigue. This is in line with current CAA thinking. In 2001 the CAA commissioned QinetiQ (formally DERA) Centre for Human Sciences to conduct research into aircrew alertness during short-haul operations, including the impact of early starts. QinetiQ is recognised as being one of the world leaders in the subject of sleep and fatigue research, and is a founder member of the European Committee for Aircrew Scheduling and Safety (ECASS), which operates under the auspices of the European Transport Safety Council. The QinetiQ report into this research was published in February 2002 (QINETIQ/CHS/PPD/CRO10406/1.0).
Further research into consecutive early starts, conducted by a low cost carrier, is currently planned to take place later this year.
I trust that this reassures you that the CAA is continuing with its research programme into aircrew fatigue issues.
Yours sincerely,
RICHARD EVANS
ASSISTANT POLICY ADVISOR
MULTILATERAL DIVISION 1
DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT
Not sure how the cynics amongst you will interpret this nor what any outcome will be - or how long away. Probably need to keep a degree of pressure on in order to assist focus, as it were, - so letters to your MP, etc. - but it does look as if something is happening.
No doubt observations from professional individuals will assist the research being undertaken - perhaps someone in the know can supply the appropriate address.
Hope this helps,
WE (not a pilot).
That is a good effort on your behalf WangEye. Thank you.
The reply is a standard civil service response.
Part of the problem is that the CAA's method of addressing fatigue is too slow to keep pace with industry developments. The QinetiQ report was published in Feb 2002 and relates to research carried out in (I think) Autumn 2000. We are now into 2004. Any research carried out later this year will consequently by published a long time hence.
At the present time fatiguing rosters exist and no action has been taken.
A quicker way of addressing the problem is needed. For this you need to go straight to the people concerned (the pilots) and ask them how they feel about their perceptions of their work.
The report says:
' "Perceptions are truth because people believe
them." If one accepts the view that perception is reality there are clear implications here for LCC managements regarding communication and consultation with employees.
Crews who perceive themselves to be exploited or manipulated will react in the same way as crews who are in fact exploited or manipulated. '
I would suggest that a quicker solution would be a Government enquiry which cuts the CAA out of the loop.
The hidden message of the reply you received is that it will be dealt with at a very low level and no action will be taken.
By the way, the QinietiQ report is in the public domain and you are entitled to ask for a copy.
The reply is a standard civil service response.
Part of the problem is that the CAA's method of addressing fatigue is too slow to keep pace with industry developments. The QinetiQ report was published in Feb 2002 and relates to research carried out in (I think) Autumn 2000. We are now into 2004. Any research carried out later this year will consequently by published a long time hence.
At the present time fatiguing rosters exist and no action has been taken.
A quicker way of addressing the problem is needed. For this you need to go straight to the people concerned (the pilots) and ask them how they feel about their perceptions of their work.
The report says:
' "Perceptions are truth because people believe
them." If one accepts the view that perception is reality there are clear implications here for LCC managements regarding communication and consultation with employees.
Crews who perceive themselves to be exploited or manipulated will react in the same way as crews who are in fact exploited or manipulated. '
I would suggest that a quicker solution would be a Government enquiry which cuts the CAA out of the loop.
The hidden message of the reply you received is that it will be dealt with at a very low level and no action will be taken.
By the way, the QinietiQ report is in the public domain and you are entitled to ask for a copy.