Virgin Pilot held on Drink allegations
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"GET A LIFE"
"think that alchohol was an essential component in sustaining human life"
Very boreing life without it.....perhaps ALL commercial pilots should become members of the Taliband, Muslim Fundamentalists
etc.
An international strike to enforce working hours that would allow for a reasonable social life might be the answer.
Who are these failed PPL's and baggage handlers working as so called security anyway?
Very boreing life without it.....perhaps ALL commercial pilots should become members of the Taliband, Muslim Fundamentalists
etc.
An international strike to enforce working hours that would allow for a reasonable social life might be the answer.
Who are these failed PPL's and baggage handlers working as so called security anyway?
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Just some thoughts after reading thru all this lot.
1. What ever happened to innocent before proven guilty?
2. Media sensationalsium yet again!
3.
disgusting that once proven innocent sudenly the media
forget all about it.
4. Dont blame the ground staff and start questioning their
intelligence or how much they earn. What the hell has that
got to do with it. If you suspect someone of drinking before
flying then you have a duty of care to ensure the safety of
the aircraft and its pax too!
5. The meaning of the word "drunk" is completely differant to the
meaning of "above the legal limit".
All in all I guess we just have to wait for the facts and for the the authority to make their case. Same as every other process of criminal law. BTW has anyone actually seen any documented proof that the Oslo crew member was under the limit. Has it been reported anywhere? If so I reckon letters/emails/faxes should be direct at the media to ask why the fact this man is now in the clear has not been reported in the press. Surely the inital stories have bought his character into question!
1. What ever happened to innocent before proven guilty?
2. Media sensationalsium yet again!
3.
disgusting that once proven innocent sudenly the mediaforget all about it.
4. Dont blame the ground staff and start questioning their
intelligence or how much they earn. What the hell has that
got to do with it. If you suspect someone of drinking before
flying then you have a duty of care to ensure the safety of
the aircraft and its pax too!
5. The meaning of the word "drunk" is completely differant to the
meaning of "above the legal limit".
All in all I guess we just have to wait for the facts and for the the authority to make their case. Same as every other process of criminal law. BTW has anyone actually seen any documented proof that the Oslo crew member was under the limit. Has it been reported anywhere? If so I reckon letters/emails/faxes should be direct at the media to ask why the fact this man is now in the clear has not been reported in the press. Surely the inital stories have bought his character into question!
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I do think there are a few ground staff in certain countries would only be too pleased to spill the beans on crew if they got the chance to,even though I dont drink below 10hrs I still worry about this to the extent that I dont enjoy a drink on a nightstop any more,resulting to the fact that no drinking is best and even more so for the next few months.
The reasoning of this is, when they bring in the testers in the UK you can be sure that just like the pionts system for motorists they will be out in force trying to catch out as many as possible.
If they want to dictate our lifes in our periods free from duty i.e. with the limit being so low that its a risk for even one drink,then they are dictating our lifes,rest included,
Compamies should bear the cost of this in flight pays and/or saleries and not the token hourly rates that are currently payed.
Rgds K.I.L.
The reasoning of this is, when they bring in the testers in the UK you can be sure that just like the pionts system for motorists they will be out in force trying to catch out as many as possible.
If they want to dictate our lifes in our periods free from duty i.e. with the limit being so low that its a risk for even one drink,then they are dictating our lifes,rest included,
Compamies should bear the cost of this in flight pays and/or saleries and not the token hourly rates that are currently payed.
Rgds K.I.L.
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I'm not making any comment on the current case in NY, however it may have some bearing on the previous case in Norway where the crew had a positive breath test and (according to previous posts on PPRUNE) some or all had neg blood tests.
If you do get breath tested, be it for whatever reason, dont have it done in the cockpit. The breath test machines are not shielded from electrical interferance. So there is a chance that radio transmissions be it from acars or wherever could give a false positive. My advice is insist on a
private room off the aircraft.
Bit of a ramble and before anyone asks no i dont have any proof of this other than anecdotal evidence from a police officer friend of mine who says his machine always goes straight to red if he transmitts on his personal radio while the suspect is doing the test.
Daysleeper
Bingle Jells all the way.
If you do get breath tested, be it for whatever reason, dont have it done in the cockpit. The breath test machines are not shielded from electrical interferance. So there is a chance that radio transmissions be it from acars or wherever could give a false positive. My advice is insist on a
private room off the aircraft.
Bit of a ramble and before anyone asks no i dont have any proof of this other than anecdotal evidence from a police officer friend of mine who says his machine always goes straight to red if he transmitts on his personal radio while the suspect is doing the test.
Daysleeper
Bingle Jells all the way.
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Daysleeper,
Yes a Personal radio can have that effect, and I presume so could some of the wiggly amp thingies on a flight deck. However that breath test is only a screening test, certainly in the UK, and gives reasonable grounds to suspect that someone has a blood alchol limit above the prescribed limit.
In the UK you would be arrested (which is not saying you are guilty) and taken to a Police Station. There you would take a further breath test on a calibrated machine which gives a print out admissable in court. That is then the evidence of having the blood alcohol concerntration above the prescribed limit. In other words even if something does interfere with the initial screening test it would not lead to an appearence before the magistrates for nothing.
Yes a Personal radio can have that effect, and I presume so could some of the wiggly amp thingies on a flight deck. However that breath test is only a screening test, certainly in the UK, and gives reasonable grounds to suspect that someone has a blood alchol limit above the prescribed limit.
In the UK you would be arrested (which is not saying you are guilty) and taken to a Police Station. There you would take a further breath test on a calibrated machine which gives a print out admissable in court. That is then the evidence of having the blood alcohol concerntration above the prescribed limit. In other words even if something does interfere with the initial screening test it would not lead to an appearence before the magistrates for nothing.
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FEBA, I'm with you here, a "nice guy". But sadly in life stuff like this will always happen to the "nice guy". I also agree that it was sad to see the guy in a prison suit, is this the Americans out to show the world how they now police the air as well as everything else!!
What of the rest of the crew, it would be nice to think that the F/O would have stepped in to say something! How many crew are on a B744, over 20 in total and nobody thought to say something. Not saying it's right IF this was as reported, but it must have been able to be kept in-house.
What of the rest of the crew, it would be nice to think that the F/O would have stepped in to say something! How many crew are on a B744, over 20 in total and nobody thought to say something. Not saying it's right IF this was as reported, but it must have been able to be kept in-house.
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Oh Come on Fella's
Been around the International Circuit for years, but a little closer to the ground than most.
With all the Media Photo's and Police Interviews on the International Media, surely the % of so called liquor would/should have been splattered all over the front pages.
Why not then?
I have a feeling there is much more to this sick story than is in the papers and news.
Lets hope this guy is just sitting back, and sues to crap out of these jerks.
With all the Media Photo's and Police Interviews on the International Media, surely the % of so called liquor would/should have been splattered all over the front pages.
Why not then?
I have a feeling there is much more to this sick story than is in the papers and news.
Lets hope this guy is just sitting back, and sues to crap out of these jerks.
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Soory Moosp
You squeezed in before I could edit my previous blurd.
Remember the Poll by the Bulliten Magazine.....listing the most respected professions in order from the top?
Airline Pilots #1 [Hope that included Helio Guys as well]
Paramedics #2
Firemen #3
>
>
>
Politicians #49
Drug Dealers #50
Wonder where the New Age Security Tossers fit in that?
Remember the Poll by the Bulliten Magazine.....listing the most respected professions in order from the top?
Airline Pilots #1 [Hope that included Helio Guys as well]
Paramedics #2
Firemen #3
>
>
>
Politicians #49
Drug Dealers #50
Wonder where the New Age Security Tossers fit in that?
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Law in Virginia is that by driving a motor vehicle there is an implied consent to be breathalized if required by state or local law enforcement authorities. Flinking that gets you arrested, but getting convicted requires a blood test and rules of evidence if you go to the mat with the prosecution and really choose to fight it.
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Moosp
You obviously don't like security guards? OK, who does? But that really isn't the point. If you drink before you drive/fly/drive a train or do anything else that requires concentration then you have NO ONE else to blame but yourself if you get caught.
Presumably you would be quite happy for everyone to ignore a taxi driver who had been drinking and let him drive your family about? How would you feel if such a taxi driver had an accident after you smelt drink on him and you did nothing about it, and as a result someone else was killed or injured!
Or perhaps you think that a pilot who drinks wouldn't have an accident?
I am not prejudging this pilot, but I am sorry, some of you have to face a couple of simple facts here, one of which if he is found guilty it is totaly down to him and no one else.
You obviously don't like security guards? OK, who does? But that really isn't the point. If you drink before you drive/fly/drive a train or do anything else that requires concentration then you have NO ONE else to blame but yourself if you get caught.
Presumably you would be quite happy for everyone to ignore a taxi driver who had been drinking and let him drive your family about? How would you feel if such a taxi driver had an accident after you smelt drink on him and you did nothing about it, and as a result someone else was killed or injured!
Or perhaps you think that a pilot who drinks wouldn't have an accident?
I am not prejudging this pilot, but I am sorry, some of you have to face a couple of simple facts here, one of which if he is found guilty it is totaly down to him and no one else.
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AS it has been reported that the BA captain accused of being "drunk" was later found to be clear, why did his resignation need to be "taken up" and, if it was already processed, surely BA could say "come back old chap!"
I cannot understand why he needed to resign (honourable man or not). Sadly nowadays more people appear to resign before they get the sack (especially "corrupt" police officers who manage to go on pension.
FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT I am not suggesting that the Captain referred to is corrupt, but I cannot see why if he knew he had had no drinkies and that he would be exonerated, what resigning would achieve-
(edits.. I see that elements of my query have already been answered).
I cannot understand why he needed to resign (honourable man or not). Sadly nowadays more people appear to resign before they get the sack (especially "corrupt" police officers who manage to go on pension.
FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT I am not suggesting that the Captain referred to is corrupt, but I cannot see why if he knew he had had no drinkies and that he would be exonerated, what resigning would achieve-
(edits.. I see that elements of my query have already been answered).
Last edited by luoto; 22nd Dec 2003 at 22:14.
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Moosp
Just looked at your profile.
Do you a swap, show me how to fly that tank to EGLL, and I'll show you how to get onto an Oil Plaform on a dark night after a Rig Radar Approach.
MMMm, on second thoughts, I think its safer to be in London!
Do you a swap, show me how to fly that tank to EGLL, and I'll show you how to get onto an Oil Plaform on a dark night after a Rig Radar Approach.
MMMm, on second thoughts, I think its safer to be in London!
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i think something should be done pronto about this let's face it - confusion-
yes,yes,yes we all know the legal limit is a quarter of the drink driving limit etc,etc,etc - what the **** is that ? do i have a beer or two the night before a flight, at least if it was the old 8 hrs before report that was it, now we have this situation where it's a free for all to 'bag a pilot', maybe we should all go through security and accuse someone of not doing their jobs correctly- maybe been drinking ? or even just plain drunk ? and insist on a test.
Don't mean to single out security but this just stinks, we are a self govening profesion- my peers sign my licence - my collegues on the flight deck check my performance - we make decisions every working day - we have always been trusted to do our job to the best of our ability and that includes not breaking the rules on drinking - the powers that be should have seen this situation coming as soon as a numerical limit was applied, am i not to have a beer all through the summer ?
why was i supplied with a beef and ale pie as my hot meal the other day ?? - where do we stop ?
And final rant - do the french still have a glass of wine with their crew food ??
yes,yes,yes we all know the legal limit is a quarter of the drink driving limit etc,etc,etc - what the **** is that ? do i have a beer or two the night before a flight, at least if it was the old 8 hrs before report that was it, now we have this situation where it's a free for all to 'bag a pilot', maybe we should all go through security and accuse someone of not doing their jobs correctly- maybe been drinking ? or even just plain drunk ? and insist on a test.
Don't mean to single out security but this just stinks, we are a self govening profesion- my peers sign my licence - my collegues on the flight deck check my performance - we make decisions every working day - we have always been trusted to do our job to the best of our ability and that includes not breaking the rules on drinking - the powers that be should have seen this situation coming as soon as a numerical limit was applied, am i not to have a beer all through the summer ?
why was i supplied with a beef and ale pie as my hot meal the other day ?? - where do we stop ?
And final rant - do the french still have a glass of wine with their crew food ??
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bjcc
That is kind of my point. I'm suggesting that the problem may be that an initial positive (caused by electical interference.) may lead to arrest and a blood test under caution. I dont know how long a blood test takes to come back with the results of an alcohol test, but even if its 48 hours then thats long enough to have your flights cancelled, passengers incovenienced and your face plastered (sic) across the news of the screws.
I would say I in no way condone any form of drinking and driving/train operating or flying. Nor do I have any knowlege of the specific circumstances surrounding these cases.
luto
If you were faced with even a nagging doubt as to the possible result of a blood test and the airline was saying if you resign you keep your pension if you fight this and create more bad publicity for the airline you get nothing, what would you do?
That is kind of my point. I'm suggesting that the problem may be that an initial positive (caused by electical interference.) may lead to arrest and a blood test under caution. I dont know how long a blood test takes to come back with the results of an alcohol test, but even if its 48 hours then thats long enough to have your flights cancelled, passengers incovenienced and your face plastered (sic) across the news of the screws.
I would say I in no way condone any form of drinking and driving/train operating or flying. Nor do I have any knowlege of the specific circumstances surrounding these cases.
luto
If you were faced with even a nagging doubt as to the possible result of a blood test and the airline was saying if you resign you keep your pension if you fight this and create more bad publicity for the airline you get nothing, what would you do?
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Daysleeper,
I don't know about the US, but in the UK you wouldn't get a blood test.
The point I was making was that there is a second breath test at a Police Station on a Calibrated machine (its the size of a kitchen unit) and that provides the evidence in the form of a print out of the amount of alchol in your blood (apparently its proportional to the amount in your breath hence the test is done on breath).
There is no blood or unine test because they are not needed. The calibrated machine in the Police Station is tested to make sure there is nothing that will mess with it.
So in the UK its not 48 hours, its less than 48 minutes.
As I said I don't know about the US, I would assume that they are at the same level of development as us, and therefore they use the same sort of machine. Thats an assumption based on the fact that this pilot is appearing in court today. If there was no read out of his blood/alcohol level there really wouldn't be much point in him appearing in court at this stage. However I am willing to be shot down on the last point by someone who does know something about the US Judicial system.
I don't know about the US, but in the UK you wouldn't get a blood test.
The point I was making was that there is a second breath test at a Police Station on a Calibrated machine (its the size of a kitchen unit) and that provides the evidence in the form of a print out of the amount of alchol in your blood (apparently its proportional to the amount in your breath hence the test is done on breath).
There is no blood or unine test because they are not needed. The calibrated machine in the Police Station is tested to make sure there is nothing that will mess with it.
So in the UK its not 48 hours, its less than 48 minutes.
As I said I don't know about the US, I would assume that they are at the same level of development as us, and therefore they use the same sort of machine. Thats an assumption based on the fact that this pilot is appearing in court today. If there was no read out of his blood/alcohol level there really wouldn't be much point in him appearing in court at this stage. However I am willing to be shot down on the last point by someone who does know something about the US Judicial system.
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bjcc
fascinating, I always though there was a sort of blood/breath/urine pop quiz. I agree that in the UK a case would not make it to this stage on an initial test only and things do not look good. But it will all come out in the wash.
fascinating, I always though there was a sort of blood/breath/urine pop quiz. I agree that in the UK a case would not make it to this stage on an initial test only and things do not look good. But it will all come out in the wash.
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Dear all,
Several points have struck me from the last 7 pages.
1) What is the problem with pilots becoming alcohol free during the working week or even better at all times? I am greatly concerned by the seeming need of many on here to have a drink during their downtime. The seeming inability to “relax” without an alcoholic beverage smacks of institutional alcoholism.
2) If pilots want an easy way to regain the respect of the public that they crave I have a simple way to achieve it. Make an announcement that all their pilots will be required to refrain from alcohol. Have the airlines and the unions appear on the same podium at the press conference.
3) Maybe the time for pilot self regulation has come to an end. The technology they are talking about introducing in cars that requires a breath test before the engine immobiliser is released would be easily applied to airliners.
Fireflybob,
If, as you say, you read no newspapers and refuse to catch TV or radio news programmes how do have any clue as to what is going on in the world? As good as it is Pprune is not a suitable substitute.
Cheers
BHR
Several points have struck me from the last 7 pages.
1) What is the problem with pilots becoming alcohol free during the working week or even better at all times? I am greatly concerned by the seeming need of many on here to have a drink during their downtime. The seeming inability to “relax” without an alcoholic beverage smacks of institutional alcoholism.
2) If pilots want an easy way to regain the respect of the public that they crave I have a simple way to achieve it. Make an announcement that all their pilots will be required to refrain from alcohol. Have the airlines and the unions appear on the same podium at the press conference.
3) Maybe the time for pilot self regulation has come to an end. The technology they are talking about introducing in cars that requires a breath test before the engine immobiliser is released would be easily applied to airliners.
Fireflybob,
If, as you say, you read no newspapers and refuse to catch TV or radio news programmes how do have any clue as to what is going on in the world? As good as it is Pprune is not a suitable substitute.
Cheers
BHR