Japanese give Airbus the SNUB over A380
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Japanese give Airbus the SNUB over A380
Airbus A380 project hit by Japanese snub
Times of London 12/08/03
author: Ben Webster
(Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd, 2003)
THE £6.2 billion project to build the world's largest passenger aircraft yesterday suffered a setback when one of the biggest potential customers said that it had no interest in buying the aircraft.
Airbus, the European manufacturer building the double- deck A380, had said last month that it was confident of selling dozens of the aircraft to Japanese airlines. But All Nippon Airways (ANA), Japan's biggest domestic carrier, said that it would stick with the Boeing 747 for at least the next ten years.
ANA also questioned whether passengers would want to travel with 800 other people in an A380. ANA operates 747s with 569 seats on short domestic flights between densely populated Japanese cities separated by mountains.
Keisuke Okada, ANA's vice-president for corporate planning, said that the airline was concerned about the risk of purchasing an untested aircraft of unprecedented size that might prove unpopular with passengers.
He said: "The big question is whether the customer is happy. Already, when I take a ride on a big 747 we have to wait with a lot of people in the lounge and boarding is a crazy stress. Baggage and passenger handling is chaos."
Mr Okada said ANA's preferred solution was to expand Japan's crowded airports, including adding a runway to Toyko's Haneda airport, to cope with more regular flights by such smaller aircraft as the Boeing 777. He said: "If that happens we do not have to go for a risky, bigger plane."
Japan Airlines, Japan's other big airline, has also indicated it is not interested in investing in the A380 at present.
Japanese airlines have a uniquely close relationship with Boeing, which extends from the economic and military ties with the US developed after the Second World War. Only about one in ten aircraft flown by leading Japanese airlines is an Airbus, with the rest built by Boeing.
The business case for the A380 depends on Japanese airlines investing in the aircraft. The British Government has contributed £500 million of taxpayers' money in launch aid, which will be lost if the A380 programme fails to make a profit.
The wings of the A380 are manufactured in Broughton, North Wales, and one version of the engine is being built in Derby by Rolls-Royce.
Airbus has 121 A380 orders, all at a heavy discount. Singapore Airlines and Emirates are due to fly the first A380s in passenger service in 2006, with Virgin Atlantic following a couple of months later.
Airbus claims it needs to sell only 250 to make a profit but industry analysts believe the true breakeven point, after discounts are included, is 500.
Andrew Doyle, news editor of Flight International magazine, said: "Japanese airlines are the key to the success of the A380 programme. If Airbus does not sell the aircraft to the Japanese then it blows a great hole in the company's market forecast."
ANA has shown much greater interest in Boeing's plan to build a super-efficient mid-sized aircraft with about 250 seats, known as the 7E7, and Mr Okada said: "The 7E7 is a good plane so we are making very close communication with the manufacturer. We need to make some strategic decisions very soon and that plane covers a very wide range."
Boeing has reached an outline agreement with three Japanese industrial giants, Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki, to build 35 per cent of the 7E7 in Japan. Airbus attempted to forge a similar link with Japanese manufacturers for the A380 but was rebuffed.
John Leahy, Airbus's chief commercial officer, last week attempted to apply pressure to Japanese Airlines by telling them they would lose out to competitors if they failed to buy the A380.
[B]
Times of London 12/08/03
author: Ben Webster
(Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd, 2003)
THE £6.2 billion project to build the world's largest passenger aircraft yesterday suffered a setback when one of the biggest potential customers said that it had no interest in buying the aircraft.
Airbus, the European manufacturer building the double- deck A380, had said last month that it was confident of selling dozens of the aircraft to Japanese airlines. But All Nippon Airways (ANA), Japan's biggest domestic carrier, said that it would stick with the Boeing 747 for at least the next ten years.
ANA also questioned whether passengers would want to travel with 800 other people in an A380. ANA operates 747s with 569 seats on short domestic flights between densely populated Japanese cities separated by mountains.
Keisuke Okada, ANA's vice-president for corporate planning, said that the airline was concerned about the risk of purchasing an untested aircraft of unprecedented size that might prove unpopular with passengers.
He said: "The big question is whether the customer is happy. Already, when I take a ride on a big 747 we have to wait with a lot of people in the lounge and boarding is a crazy stress. Baggage and passenger handling is chaos."
Mr Okada said ANA's preferred solution was to expand Japan's crowded airports, including adding a runway to Toyko's Haneda airport, to cope with more regular flights by such smaller aircraft as the Boeing 777. He said: "If that happens we do not have to go for a risky, bigger plane."
Japan Airlines, Japan's other big airline, has also indicated it is not interested in investing in the A380 at present.
Japanese airlines have a uniquely close relationship with Boeing, which extends from the economic and military ties with the US developed after the Second World War. Only about one in ten aircraft flown by leading Japanese airlines is an Airbus, with the rest built by Boeing.
The business case for the A380 depends on Japanese airlines investing in the aircraft. The British Government has contributed £500 million of taxpayers' money in launch aid, which will be lost if the A380 programme fails to make a profit.
The wings of the A380 are manufactured in Broughton, North Wales, and one version of the engine is being built in Derby by Rolls-Royce.
Airbus has 121 A380 orders, all at a heavy discount. Singapore Airlines and Emirates are due to fly the first A380s in passenger service in 2006, with Virgin Atlantic following a couple of months later.
Airbus claims it needs to sell only 250 to make a profit but industry analysts believe the true breakeven point, after discounts are included, is 500.
Andrew Doyle, news editor of Flight International magazine, said: "Japanese airlines are the key to the success of the A380 programme. If Airbus does not sell the aircraft to the Japanese then it blows a great hole in the company's market forecast."
ANA has shown much greater interest in Boeing's plan to build a super-efficient mid-sized aircraft with about 250 seats, known as the 7E7, and Mr Okada said: "The 7E7 is a good plane so we are making very close communication with the manufacturer. We need to make some strategic decisions very soon and that plane covers a very wide range."
Boeing has reached an outline agreement with three Japanese industrial giants, Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki, to build 35 per cent of the 7E7 in Japan. Airbus attempted to forge a similar link with Japanese manufacturers for the A380 but was rebuffed.
John Leahy, Airbus's chief commercial officer, last week attempted to apply pressure to Japanese Airlines by telling them they would lose out to competitors if they failed to buy the A380.
[B]
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ANA has apparently rushed to clarify this, saying that it has not ruled out buying the aircraft. Frankly, it would surprise me if they didn't, given the demand for domestic air travel in Japan, not to mention competition from European competitors Virgin, AF and Lufthansa, all of which intend to fly the aircraft to Japan.
Remember, the 380 is a long term project, so what may ultimately turn out to be the largest customers may not be among the customers at the launch - look at CX and the 747. Plenty of time - and no doubt different variants to come as well.
Remember, the 380 is a long term project, so what may ultimately turn out to be the largest customers may not be among the customers at the launch - look at CX and the 747. Plenty of time - and no doubt different variants to come as well.
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The Japanase will come to this aircraft as building new runways in Japan will not take place the next decade or two at least. By the then the market has grown so much that the aircraft is needed.
Sounds like Mr Boeing has been lobbying the Japanes quite a bit. Taking into account that Japan is responsible for 35% of the 7E7 (talking about untested aircraft) they are a bit pro BNoeing for the time being...
Sounds like Mr Boeing has been lobbying the Japanes quite a bit. Taking into account that Japan is responsible for 35% of the 7E7 (talking about untested aircraft) they are a bit pro BNoeing for the time being...
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Mr Okada said ANA's preferred solution was to expand Japan's crowded airports, including adding a runway to Toyko's Haneda airport, to cope with more regular flights by such smaller aircraft as the Boeing 777
Expanding the airports may be better, but it's not going to happen. So the economics of it will inevitably drive ANA and JAL to the A380. It's really only a matter of when.
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The Population of Japan is NOT expanding. How much more flying can they do? Rail service is increasing and improving there, where bullet trains really do go fast...
Japan INC has been dead for a decade as well. Would not be suprised if the market for airtravel in Japan was actually shrinking.
Cheers
Wino
Japan INC has been dead for a decade as well. Would not be suprised if the market for airtravel in Japan was actually shrinking.
Cheers
Wino
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"John Leahy" "Airbus chief commercial officer"
Is that the same John Leahy that was the chief pilot on the BA 744 fleet?
I wondered why I hadn't seen or heard from him for a while!
If it is him, then i guess its true what they say "size matters" and now he has something bigger than a 744 to play with!
Is that the same John Leahy that was the chief pilot on the BA 744 fleet?
I wondered why I hadn't seen or heard from him for a while!
If it is him, then i guess its true what they say "size matters" and now he has something bigger than a 744 to play with!
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The Japanese are used to crowded transportation systems. They are building runways and airports in Japan now - A second runway in Osaka and a man-made island airport in Nagoya. The 2nd and 3rd largest cities I beleive. They do seem to have a hard time getting the locals to accept a runway in their backyard, though.
Boeing put their balls on the line with the 747 - I think it's the same with Airbus. If it fails (it won't), they should be able to survive, possibly because of gov. help.
But when I think about it -I only remember seeing double-decker buses in britain?
Boeing put their balls on the line with the 747 - I think it's the same with Airbus. If it fails (it won't), they should be able to survive, possibly because of gov. help.
But when I think about it -I only remember seeing double-decker buses in britain?
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BIG PARTYR said.....
" But when I think about it -I only remember seeing double-decker buses in britain? "
Aviate1138 says...
Plenty of double decker trains everywhere Except the UK!
I hated the 747 because of the mass herding of humanity, the delays in Customs etc., but I became accustomed/resigned, so the same will probably happen with the 380. I notice that 747 F'F'F'FOCAL is off on a yet another Airbus Disinformation exercise.....yawn....
Just F'FOCALLING off for some breakfast.
Aviate1138
" But when I think about it -I only remember seeing double-decker buses in britain? "
Aviate1138 says...
Plenty of double decker trains everywhere Except the UK!
I hated the 747 because of the mass herding of humanity, the delays in Customs etc., but I became accustomed/resigned, so the same will probably happen with the 380. I notice that 747 F'F'F'FOCAL is off on a yet another Airbus Disinformation exercise.....yawn....
Just F'FOCALLING off for some breakfast.
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I really don't give a toss about the Boeing vs. Airbus bull, as they're pretty obviously both huge state-supported industries and both play dirty ball. At that point, who really cares who is "worse"? Build me an airplane and let me fly it.
Having said that, I have a hard time seeing how FOCAL's quoting of a story from a legitimate (European, no less!) newpaper can be seen as misinformation where the most unabashedly anti-boeing rants raise nary a whimper around here. Come now, apply some of that European perspective you keep reminding us that you have in such abundance to yourselves.
Having said that, I have a hard time seeing how FOCAL's quoting of a story from a legitimate (European, no less!) newpaper can be seen as misinformation where the most unabashedly anti-boeing rants raise nary a whimper around here. Come now, apply some of that European perspective you keep reminding us that you have in such abundance to yourselves.
Last edited by TRF4EVR; 9th Dec 2003 at 19:31.
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Emirates want 23!
With the Emirates engine order, supporting their 23 aircraft, amongst the 129 provisional orders made to Airbus, I don't think Airbus will start worrying yet!
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Virgin must be likely to take up their 6 options on the A380 now the Australia route looks likely to go ahead (only EU approval now required), though there are no plans at the moment to operate the A380 to Japan (sorry, akerosid!).
This aeroplane will succeed for the same reasons that the B747 did: demand for seats is increasing (particularly in the Pacific/Asia regions) faster than airport runway capacity is increasing, therefore more seats are required for each aircraft movement. The A380 may not be pretty, but it makes economic sense -and it's a lot cheaper and more PC to improve terminal and stand capacity than it is to build new runways.
This aeroplane will succeed for the same reasons that the B747 did: demand for seats is increasing (particularly in the Pacific/Asia regions) faster than airport runway capacity is increasing, therefore more seats are required for each aircraft movement. The A380 may not be pretty, but it makes economic sense -and it's a lot cheaper and more PC to improve terminal and stand capacity than it is to build new runways.
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The difference is, when Japan snubs Airbus over the A380, Airbus will simply go and find some other customers.
If Japan snubs Boeing over the 7E7, the plane doesn't even get built....
If Japan snubs Boeing over the 7E7, the plane doesn't even get built....
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The difference is, when Japan snubs Airbus over the A380, Airbus will simply go and find some other customers.
The 7E7 is an aircraft that is being designed with boeings future traffic predictions whereas the A380 has been designed for a totally different model.
If the japanese snub the 7E7 it will still go ahead. However, letting them build 35% of it does make it more attractive to them..its a simple business deal
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Hmmm....."letting them build it" it somewhat removed from "risk-sharing partner" which is their actual status. Remove Japan's share of the risk, increase Boeings, devalue the proposition in the eyes of a very shaky and cautious board....
And there's no reason to suggest why Airbus' traffic forecasts won't be more correct than Boeing's is there?
And there's no reason to suggest why Airbus' traffic forecasts won't be more correct than Boeing's is there?
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December 11, 2003 -
Penerbangan Malaysia Berhad (PMB), parent company of Malaysia Airlines, signed a firm contract for six A380-800 passenger aircraft with Airbus, firming up an earlier commitment announced in January this year.
Deliveries to PMB are scheduled to begin in 2007. The A380s will be operated by Malaysia Airlines on key trunk routes to Europe and the Asia-Pacific region. With PMB’s order, Airbus now has 129 firm orders from 11 customers.
Speaks for itself, Boeing and ANA notwithstanding.
Penerbangan Malaysia Berhad (PMB), parent company of Malaysia Airlines, signed a firm contract for six A380-800 passenger aircraft with Airbus, firming up an earlier commitment announced in January this year.
Deliveries to PMB are scheduled to begin in 2007. The A380s will be operated by Malaysia Airlines on key trunk routes to Europe and the Asia-Pacific region. With PMB’s order, Airbus now has 129 firm orders from 11 customers.
Speaks for itself, Boeing and ANA notwithstanding.
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They are going to have to modify loading the passengers with this beast to make the Japs more interested. One AirBridge alone is too constrictive, they need at leats 2 and to load on both sides left and right rather than just left with catering on the right. I have been in the back of many 747 waiting to disembark, and it sometimes takes 30 minutes 
Also is this A380 going to have performance, will it be faster than the Slow A340, I hope so.
Yes I agree 129 orders is impressive and Airbus will out do Boeing on orders by a mile this year. But Airbus may have trouble swaying both Japanese and Chinese Airlines. Japan especially as both ANA and JAL have been 747 stalwarts for years, I belive JALs 747 fleet being the worlds largest with 88 units at one stage. Lets face inspight of SARS the Asian Growth in Air Travel has been very exponential and promising.
Sheep
Also is this A380 going to have performance, will it be faster than the Slow A340, I hope so.
Yes I agree 129 orders is impressive and Airbus will out do Boeing on orders by a mile this year. But Airbus may have trouble swaying both Japanese and Chinese Airlines. Japan especially as both ANA and JAL have been 747 stalwarts for years, I belive JALs 747 fleet being the worlds largest with 88 units at one stage. Lets face inspight of SARS the Asian Growth in Air Travel has been very exponential and promising.
Sheep
Last edited by Sheep Guts; 11th Dec 2003 at 22:18.
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Standard loading/unloading will be using 2 airbridges, at doors 1L and 2L.
1L serves the upper deck via the double-width staircase just aft of the door, 2L the remainder of the a/c.
Airbus believe they can turn one round in 58 minutes (IIRC).
Some very interesting information on : Airbus - A380 Planning Documents
1L serves the upper deck via the double-width staircase just aft of the door, 2L the remainder of the a/c.
Airbus believe they can turn one round in 58 minutes (IIRC).
Some very interesting information on : Airbus - A380 Planning Documents
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Sheep Guts, I take it from your profile that your perspective is as a passenger? Nothing wrong with that, but you are missing a couple of points in your suggestions.
Modern large jet aircraft don't just load the catering on the starboard side; all the freight and baggage is loaded that side too. The complexities of trying to arrange boarding access via both sides of the aircraft are immense, and unlikely to be practical. It is possible, however (if unlikely), that 3 (2 main deck, one upper) jetways could be used on the port side - if airports are prepared to invest the money! Most airports rely on one jetway - even for a B747 - but there are more and more utilising 2, which makes a significant difference to boarding/disembarkation times.
The 'slow' A340 you refer to cruises at M0.82 (A343) or M0.83 (A346). Not as fast as the B744's M0.855, but the difference is not that significant to the passenger. And yes, I know that the 744 can cruise faster than that, just as the 340 can cruise faster than its normal speeds, but the difference remains relatively small.
Modern large jet aircraft don't just load the catering on the starboard side; all the freight and baggage is loaded that side too. The complexities of trying to arrange boarding access via both sides of the aircraft are immense, and unlikely to be practical. It is possible, however (if unlikely), that 3 (2 main deck, one upper) jetways could be used on the port side - if airports are prepared to invest the money! Most airports rely on one jetway - even for a B747 - but there are more and more utilising 2, which makes a significant difference to boarding/disembarkation times.
The 'slow' A340 you refer to cruises at M0.82 (A343) or M0.83 (A346). Not as fast as the B744's M0.855, but the difference is not that significant to the passenger. And yes, I know that the 744 can cruise faster than that, just as the 340 can cruise faster than its normal speeds, but the difference remains relatively small.
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this just in from the our "mine is better than yours department"...
The A340-600 has less range and fewer seats than a 777-300ER and is 60,000 pounds (60,000 pounds!) heavier when empty. Think about that. Once you have boarded 250 paying passengers on an ER it becomes as heavy as an empty -600.
For airlines who make a large proportion of their revenue from freight it will be important that crew rest areas are above the roof of the passenger compartment rather than taking up valuable space in the holds.
Seems like all the state subsidies that your local kleptocracy can provide can't buy good design. I hear they do a good "straight cucumber" law, though. Take pride.
The A340-600 has less range and fewer seats than a 777-300ER and is 60,000 pounds (60,000 pounds!) heavier when empty. Think about that. Once you have boarded 250 paying passengers on an ER it becomes as heavy as an empty -600.
For airlines who make a large proportion of their revenue from freight it will be important that crew rest areas are above the roof of the passenger compartment rather than taking up valuable space in the holds.
Seems like all the state subsidies that your local kleptocracy can provide can't buy good design. I hear they do a good "straight cucumber" law, though. Take pride.