Ten most overpaid jobs in the US, No. 9 Pilots!?!?!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: EGLL
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I do not think that Aviation Professionals are overpaid no matter who they work for. In fact there are a lot of pilots who are underpaid in the UK for thier responsibilities. The major airlines pay well and up to the market forces value however smaller regional airlines using props for example pay about 20k for an F/O with skippers on 40k, bearing in mind some of these Captains are very experienced they are not being paid full market value for thier experience. In the UK if you want to earn a lot of money then BA is the company to work for, if you get in. They then rule al the other salaries, once they take in a new batch of pilots the system works downwards for new pilots to start at the bottom. ie vacancies will occur at smaller airlines as everybody moves up. This is the way it works! Oh, don't forget the controllers. They are paid between 45k and 70k in the UK,(if they are radar qualified), which is dependent on where and who they work for. I think that because of the training involved, the hard work put into qualifying for careers as pilots or atcos, the responsibility put onto professionally qualified people should be questioned. It is up to the professionals out there to decide how we should proceed further if we think that our professions are being underpaid, which is more to the point.
PS. for the member whe spelt "proffessional" there is only one effin professional
Flying Coumsil
One "F".
Were you the one who landed at Dublin and put full brakes on burnt out the brakes and popped the tyres. The Hostess ran in after all the passengers had been thrown forward and said "this is a short runway" to which your reply was "yeah, but have you seen the width of it!"
Ha Ha,
Sorry I meant "should not be questioned" not "should be questioned"
PS. for the member whe spelt "proffessional" there is only one effin professional
Flying Coumsil
One "F".
Were you the one who landed at Dublin and put full brakes on burnt out the brakes and popped the tyres. The Hostess ran in after all the passengers had been thrown forward and said "this is a short runway" to which your reply was "yeah, but have you seen the width of it!"
Ha Ha,
Sorry I meant "should not be questioned" not "should be questioned"
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: "como todo buen piloto... mujeriego y borracho"
Posts: 2,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Walmart Economy
Here is an interesting article for you steely-eyed "brave new world" fans.
Walmart
What can be done to pickles, bikes, umbrellas and jeans, can surely do to labour, including that of pilots.
The low-cost carriers come to mind. Right now the LCC's compete against the majors trunk carriers. What happens in Phase II when LCC's compete against LCC's? Ultra Low Cost Carriers?
Walmart
What can be done to pickles, bikes, umbrellas and jeans, can surely do to labour, including that of pilots.
The low-cost carriers come to mind. Right now the LCC's compete against the majors trunk carriers. What happens in Phase II when LCC's compete against LCC's? Ultra Low Cost Carriers?
Guest
Posts: n/a
What a load of bilge!
You might think that airline pilots are overpaid - right up until the moment one of the engines suffers a massive and extremely loud uncontained fan failure. Then they just can't be paid enough.
If you persist in thinking that airline pilots are over paid, ask yourself this question:
"Would I use the services of a low-cost brain surgeon?"
Most of us would say no. We would want the best service we could get. So if you would not put your life in the hands of a quack, why would you acccept putting your life in the hands of a "low cost" pilot? Besides, surgeons only have one life in their hands at a time, pilots have anything up to 500. And surgeons don't usually end up the same morgue as the victims of their mistakes.
There are certain airlines that have a reputation for treating their pilots badly; I simply will not fly on these airlines. I sincerely hope that the aviationindustry is not about forget the hard learnt lessons of the past.
You might think that airline pilots are overpaid - right up until the moment one of the engines suffers a massive and extremely loud uncontained fan failure. Then they just can't be paid enough.
If you persist in thinking that airline pilots are over paid, ask yourself this question:
"Would I use the services of a low-cost brain surgeon?"
Most of us would say no. We would want the best service we could get. So if you would not put your life in the hands of a quack, why would you acccept putting your life in the hands of a "low cost" pilot? Besides, surgeons only have one life in their hands at a time, pilots have anything up to 500. And surgeons don't usually end up the same morgue as the victims of their mistakes.
There are certain airlines that have a reputation for treating their pilots badly; I simply will not fly on these airlines. I sincerely hope that the aviationindustry is not about forget the hard learnt lessons of the past.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you seen the recently quoted rates for two jobs that serve the major airports?
Gatwick Express drivers are being offered £37,000 pa but are striking for more.
London tube drivers are getting £32,000 and as much squash playing as they like.
Just work out how long it would take to train pilots for their jobs and how long to train rail drivers for ours!
Don't show this post to your FO. He may apply for a transfer on the way home!
Gatwick Express drivers are being offered £37,000 pa but are striking for more.
London tube drivers are getting £32,000 and as much squash playing as they like.
Just work out how long it would take to train pilots for their jobs and how long to train rail drivers for ours!
Don't show this post to your FO. He may apply for a transfer on the way home!
This article made main stream media in the US in a big way. A lot of the negative reactions smacked of jealousy. The way I look at it, I'm glad some guy is pulling down 250K/yr. Instead of taking pot shots at him and his profession, look to yourself and try to improve your lot in life.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Pilot Salaries
Sour grapes? Why should a Saab340 captain with 4000 hours make any where near what a 777 captain with over 20,000 hours makes? You need to work your way into those higher paying jobs on large aircraft. I am sure that the captains that make over 200k worked their butts off to get where they are.
Overpaid? Athletes, Celebrities, Corp exec
Overpaid? Athletes, Celebrities, Corp exec
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Panama Jack,
our profession cannot be compared to umbrellas and jeans;these goods cost less if made in China because people who make them overthere are underpaid but can still have a roof over their heads and a pot of rice when they come home after work (if they ever get to go home that is...), talking in aviation terms now you should bring chinese pilots over here (cannot be based in Shangai and do the NY-Miami flight in the morning) to the west and let them do our jobs...but how will they survive here if they are underpaid?And even if they accepted to work for an hamburger and a tent in the park would the passengers still feel ok in taking a plane?And what about new cadets in flight schools?There would be no more people wanting to become a pilot because of the job's low standards of life and because of the extremely high education costs and therefore unless the third world countries' pilot population was endless, there would be no more pilots creating therefore a shortage and consequently again a rise in salaries...etc etc....this world and economy are far more complicated than you think
By the way, here in Europe low cost airlines seem to pay their drivers quite well putting them surely between the so called high paid jobs so i think they are saving on other stuff.
our profession cannot be compared to umbrellas and jeans;these goods cost less if made in China because people who make them overthere are underpaid but can still have a roof over their heads and a pot of rice when they come home after work (if they ever get to go home that is...), talking in aviation terms now you should bring chinese pilots over here (cannot be based in Shangai and do the NY-Miami flight in the morning) to the west and let them do our jobs...but how will they survive here if they are underpaid?And even if they accepted to work for an hamburger and a tent in the park would the passengers still feel ok in taking a plane?And what about new cadets in flight schools?There would be no more people wanting to become a pilot because of the job's low standards of life and because of the extremely high education costs and therefore unless the third world countries' pilot population was endless, there would be no more pilots creating therefore a shortage and consequently again a rise in salaries...etc etc....this world and economy are far more complicated than you think
By the way, here in Europe low cost airlines seem to pay their drivers quite well putting them surely between the so called high paid jobs so i think they are saving on other stuff.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The author of this article is a d**khead. he is pissed off that he doesnt make as much money as these people, and in some cases may have to work twice as hard to make 1/10th of the money others make, so he creates an article, where he can take out his case of the tall poppy syndrome on others. sometimes people go into jobs that make a lot of the money purely for the money, but a lot go in because the enjoy the job. making an excellent salary is a bonus! he doesnt have the first clue of a pilots job, and what is involved. if it is so easy and fully automated, lets see him get behind the controls of pretty much any aircraft and see how he goes. what a d**khead.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Neo hit the nail on the head. Airline pilots may be accused of earning to much - right up untill something goes wrong at 30,000'.
How the hell was this top 10 list created? Whose to say that airline pilots are making to much? - Prehaps there is a relationship between the so called 'top 10 dangerous jobs' and the supposed top 10 'over paid'.
Over the course of a carrerr spanning from entry level GA through to the majors would you actually end up all that better of than someone who worked a reasonably 'highish' paying job his/her entire carrer.
Most of all - WHO GIVES A S**T! apart from the editor of the article. Im not worried that someone is earning more than they should and therefore should be taking a pay cut - because it would be considered 'fair'.
On a more possitive note - last year here in NZ a similar article was placed with the 10 most trusted and 10 most untrusted professionals/workers. - Pleased to say Pilots were the MOST trusted of all workers.
How the hell was this top 10 list created? Whose to say that airline pilots are making to much? - Prehaps there is a relationship between the so called 'top 10 dangerous jobs' and the supposed top 10 'over paid'.
Over the course of a carrerr spanning from entry level GA through to the majors would you actually end up all that better of than someone who worked a reasonably 'highish' paying job his/her entire carrer.
Most of all - WHO GIVES A S**T! apart from the editor of the article. Im not worried that someone is earning more than they should and therefore should be taking a pay cut - because it would be considered 'fair'.
On a more possitive note - last year here in NZ a similar article was placed with the 10 most trusted and 10 most untrusted professionals/workers. - Pleased to say Pilots were the MOST trusted of all workers.
To quote VH-KMH above, that author is so envious, he is a d******d-his envy is as bright as the moon through night-vision goggles?! His must be a desperate attempt to bring up his website ratings in order to earn more advertising revenue.
Anyone who is willing to begin at the bottom rung in this career (2nd LTs and especially GA Instructors earn very little-food stamp salaries) is welcome to go earn the ratings and then apply for the various jobs. He is possibly the type who is too large to even walk to a flightline without huffing and puffing-or fit into a tiny cockpit without a bucket of KY Jelly.
Anyone who is willing to begin at the bottom rung in this career (2nd LTs and especially GA Instructors earn very little-food stamp salaries) is welcome to go earn the ratings and then apply for the various jobs. He is possibly the type who is too large to even walk to a flightline without huffing and puffing-or fit into a tiny cockpit without a bucket of KY Jelly.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 21st Nov 2003 at 10:15.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: EGLL
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"glorified bus drivers"
do not forget the importance of our jobs! Bus drivers don't give a sh*t, we do and have to train harder. Please, for all of us, make sure that the public are aware tht our job is not just only a "bus driver"
do not forget the importance of our jobs! Bus drivers don't give a sh*t, we do and have to train harder. Please, for all of us, make sure that the public are aware tht our job is not just only a "bus driver"
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must say I find it hard to reconcile the wounded reactions of contibutors to this thread with the same group who criticise a fellow pilot for defending his (and indeed their) professionalism. Not to mention defending his crew.
(See the 'Virgin Skipper has a Flipper' thread)
We are our own worst enemies because we are a profession riddled with division, burdened by excessive self criticism, and plagued by envy and begrudgery.
Lou Scannon, nice post. At least next time someone tells me I'm just a jumped up train driver...I'll remember to ask if we could all be paid as well as those train drivers.
(See the 'Virgin Skipper has a Flipper' thread)
We are our own worst enemies because we are a profession riddled with division, burdened by excessive self criticism, and plagued by envy and begrudgery.
Lou Scannon, nice post. At least next time someone tells me I'm just a jumped up train driver...I'll remember to ask if we could all be paid as well as those train drivers.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't doubt the facts - that Delta top of list captains are currently paid $250K per annum. Pilots in airlines like that won't be earning that sort of money for much longer. When the american public tires of subsidising the big airlines, these guys are going to fall a long way, and it will be a heavy thud with no bounce. I work at LGW and have been told of the loads that Delta carry on that route - it is not unusual for the the number of passengers to barely exceed the number of crew.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: West
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with most (but not all) of what this guy says in reply to the article:
"I was a little more than miffed to read Chris Pummer's '10 most overpaid jobs' column on CBSMarketWatch last Friday - - especially since one of them - major airline pilot - is what I do. Not only was his description of my profession grossly distorted in terms of both compensation and job description; it was downright insulting.
You can imagine my further chagrin when you chose to feature this sloppy "journalist" on your show Monday morning! I can't speak for the other nine jobs he maligned, but his complete ignorance of the nature of my profession leads me to question the accuracy of the others he described.
A few points:
1) The median pilot salary at Delta is nowhere near the 250,000 Mr. Pummer described. Try about half that! Quoting the top end pay one can earn during the last 2-3 years of a 30 year career is hardly indicative of the compensation afforded major airline pilots.
2) It takes an average of 10-12 years of college, postgraduate flight schools (2-4 years' worth), internship, and 3 to 4 thousand hours of jet experience just to qualify for an INTERVIEW at a major airline. The cost of such preparation EXCEEDS that of medical or law school and the overall preparation is easily comparable to what an attorney, dentist or even general medical practitioner goes through.
3) Mr. Pummer incorrectly described the job as being "almost fully
automated." Wrong. The automation that exists in the current
generation of passenger jets allowed operators to eliminate the 3rd pilot/flight engineer. The workload remaining for the 2 pilot crew is equal or higher, especially in abnormal situations, than it was previously.
4) Comparing major airline pilot pay to regionals is not very
meaningful. Pilot cost per seat mile is a more accurate cost comparison - - and in this, major airline pilots are on par with their regional counterparts! From the dawn of sailing vessels, a ship's Captain has been paid in part relative to the size/weight of his/her craft. I operate a 250 passenger, 400,000 pound Boeing 767. The biggest aircraft Southwest operates is a 125,000 pound, 125-130 passenger 737. Most regional airlines operate 50-70 passenger 50,000 pound regional jets.
Apples to oranges.
5) Pilots are paid by the FLIGHT hour. For each flight hour paid, we are required to be on duty 1 1/2 to 2 hours. My monthly schedule works out to approximately a 40-45 hour work week, PLUS 12-13 nights per month away from home. It's a FULL-TIME job!
6) Like other professionals, pilots go through demanding continuing education and evaluation. The qualification standard is 100% on every maneuver and on every normal and emergency procedure. Fall short and find another job. Pilots have to maintain and recertify medical fitness every 6 months. The FAA doesn't like your EKG? Kiss your career goodbye. Develop diabetes or high blood pressure? Kiss your career goodbye. Go see a Psychiatrist for depression and get on medication? Kiss your career goodbye. Pilots are scrutinized by the federal
government during all phases of aircraft operation. Perform a task
incorrectly or violate an approach altitude by 1 foot? Have nice long unpaid leave or find another job.
7) Speaking of pilots, Mr Pummer stated, "Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands." Tell that to the passengers who had to make an emergency return to Salt Lake not too long ago, when a mechanic failed to properly reconnect an engine generator drive, resulting in an inextinguishable magnesium fire in the engine. Only quick, professional action on the part of the pilots and
cabin crew resulted in the safe landing and prompt evacuation of all on board. Tell that to the United DC-10 crash survivors in Sioux City, Iowa, who are alive thanks to the outstanding airmanship of Capt Al Haines who drew on years and tens of thousands of hours of experience in crafting an aerodynamic solution to a severe hydraulic failure that rendered his ship virtually uncontrollable! The pilots union that Mr. Pummer derides has for over 70 years fought for and won improvements in
aircraft and airport safety too numerous to mention. You and I should shudder in fear at the prospect of an aviation system without the Air Line Pilots Association's involvement!
As a major airline pilot, I am responsible for the safety of hundreds of people and the operation of a hundred-million dollar jet in any weather, visibility, airport/runway condition, and airspace congestion level. The consequences of even a minor failing on my part can be catastrophic, creating liability in the billions of dollars, not to mention tremendous injury and loss of life.
I accept that the post 9/11 fallout created huge downward pressures on every aspect of the airline industry. My own paycheck and career prospects have and will continue to diminish. I accept this as a reality of the market place. I just wish that Chris Pummer and others who report on my industry and the profession I dearly love and have labored long years to qualify for would JUST ONCE get it right."
"I was a little more than miffed to read Chris Pummer's '10 most overpaid jobs' column on CBSMarketWatch last Friday - - especially since one of them - major airline pilot - is what I do. Not only was his description of my profession grossly distorted in terms of both compensation and job description; it was downright insulting.
You can imagine my further chagrin when you chose to feature this sloppy "journalist" on your show Monday morning! I can't speak for the other nine jobs he maligned, but his complete ignorance of the nature of my profession leads me to question the accuracy of the others he described.
A few points:
1) The median pilot salary at Delta is nowhere near the 250,000 Mr. Pummer described. Try about half that! Quoting the top end pay one can earn during the last 2-3 years of a 30 year career is hardly indicative of the compensation afforded major airline pilots.
2) It takes an average of 10-12 years of college, postgraduate flight schools (2-4 years' worth), internship, and 3 to 4 thousand hours of jet experience just to qualify for an INTERVIEW at a major airline. The cost of such preparation EXCEEDS that of medical or law school and the overall preparation is easily comparable to what an attorney, dentist or even general medical practitioner goes through.
3) Mr. Pummer incorrectly described the job as being "almost fully
automated." Wrong. The automation that exists in the current
generation of passenger jets allowed operators to eliminate the 3rd pilot/flight engineer. The workload remaining for the 2 pilot crew is equal or higher, especially in abnormal situations, than it was previously.
4) Comparing major airline pilot pay to regionals is not very
meaningful. Pilot cost per seat mile is a more accurate cost comparison - - and in this, major airline pilots are on par with their regional counterparts! From the dawn of sailing vessels, a ship's Captain has been paid in part relative to the size/weight of his/her craft. I operate a 250 passenger, 400,000 pound Boeing 767. The biggest aircraft Southwest operates is a 125,000 pound, 125-130 passenger 737. Most regional airlines operate 50-70 passenger 50,000 pound regional jets.
Apples to oranges.
5) Pilots are paid by the FLIGHT hour. For each flight hour paid, we are required to be on duty 1 1/2 to 2 hours. My monthly schedule works out to approximately a 40-45 hour work week, PLUS 12-13 nights per month away from home. It's a FULL-TIME job!
6) Like other professionals, pilots go through demanding continuing education and evaluation. The qualification standard is 100% on every maneuver and on every normal and emergency procedure. Fall short and find another job. Pilots have to maintain and recertify medical fitness every 6 months. The FAA doesn't like your EKG? Kiss your career goodbye. Develop diabetes or high blood pressure? Kiss your career goodbye. Go see a Psychiatrist for depression and get on medication? Kiss your career goodbye. Pilots are scrutinized by the federal
government during all phases of aircraft operation. Perform a task
incorrectly or violate an approach altitude by 1 foot? Have nice long unpaid leave or find another job.
7) Speaking of pilots, Mr Pummer stated, "Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands." Tell that to the passengers who had to make an emergency return to Salt Lake not too long ago, when a mechanic failed to properly reconnect an engine generator drive, resulting in an inextinguishable magnesium fire in the engine. Only quick, professional action on the part of the pilots and
cabin crew resulted in the safe landing and prompt evacuation of all on board. Tell that to the United DC-10 crash survivors in Sioux City, Iowa, who are alive thanks to the outstanding airmanship of Capt Al Haines who drew on years and tens of thousands of hours of experience in crafting an aerodynamic solution to a severe hydraulic failure that rendered his ship virtually uncontrollable! The pilots union that Mr. Pummer derides has for over 70 years fought for and won improvements in
aircraft and airport safety too numerous to mention. You and I should shudder in fear at the prospect of an aviation system without the Air Line Pilots Association's involvement!
As a major airline pilot, I am responsible for the safety of hundreds of people and the operation of a hundred-million dollar jet in any weather, visibility, airport/runway condition, and airspace congestion level. The consequences of even a minor failing on my part can be catastrophic, creating liability in the billions of dollars, not to mention tremendous injury and loss of life.
I accept that the post 9/11 fallout created huge downward pressures on every aspect of the airline industry. My own paycheck and career prospects have and will continue to diminish. I accept this as a reality of the market place. I just wish that Chris Pummer and others who report on my industry and the profession I dearly love and have labored long years to qualify for would JUST ONCE get it right."
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Great Hibernia
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well how are we all then ?
I think most people earn what they deserve for the effort etc. that they put in to their respective trade/profession, except maybe for those boyos in court rooms...
Now, I always wanted to be in the LHS of a big commercial jet, but that is never to happen, so I just fly for a hobby... well, I have to now as my other half wouldn't allow me to take the drop rolleyes: in income and deprive her of the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed
:
I think most people earn what they deserve for the effort etc. that they put in to their respective trade/profession, except maybe for those boyos in court rooms...
Now, I always wanted to be in the LHS of a big commercial jet, but that is never to happen, so I just fly for a hobby... well, I have to now as my other half wouldn't allow me to take the drop rolleyes: in income and deprive her of the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed
: