BA crew test positive for alcohol (Sentences)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: EU
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O come on Cathar, is that what you really think Maxprop is really saying? Take a chill pill and go read again. Maybe you suffer from English not being you're native language and you cannot see the nuances involved. If that's the case beware about 'jumping in with both big feet' until you understand what is being conveyed.
If English is your language, then I recommend a course of comprehension. No offence intended, but such posts are a bit ridiculous, IMHO.
Caslance <laffin>, I think we would all agree. We'd all sooner be up the front driving in any case. No offence intended, you are very right in what you say.
No one here condones any pilot reporting for duty, knowingly breaking any rules of soberness or fitnes to fly. That is the bottom line in what most people are saying, even if they chose different ways of saying it.
If English is your language, then I recommend a course of comprehension. No offence intended, but such posts are a bit ridiculous, IMHO.
Caslance <laffin>, I think we would all agree. We'd all sooner be up the front driving in any case. No offence intended, you are very right in what you say.
No one here condones any pilot reporting for duty, knowingly breaking any rules of soberness or fitnes to fly. That is the bottom line in what most people are saying, even if they chose different ways of saying it.
Still behind the curtain
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boozzin' it up
I'd like to mention the great propaganda films of WW II when British Spitfire and Hurricane pilots came home to their base and raised one or two or three, or maybe even four pints to the lost comrades who, on the way back, didn't land on those grassy airfields.
Those films gave me a sensation as a young boy that pilots were a special breed who could drink all night and fly out in the early dawn to tackle the Nazis. They were unstopable. In every film I saw, whether they were British or American, the pilots always gathered at a pub aftwerwards for a heavy night of indulgence and some were carried out by their chaps to fly again the next morning.
Was this Hollywood and/or Rank to give us the idea that these young pilots were indestructible. For one thing, I don't think that they had alcohol testing in those days. No matter how bad your hangover was the next morning, you flew. Somehow they managed to win the Battle of Britain and then some.
Another point I want to make is if a pilot has a cough and he takes a dose of syrup for that, do you realize that most of them have 40% alcohol. If he's alergic to something and takes Claritin or some other equal brand, he may not operate heavy machinery etc...
The WHO again says that a glass of red wine at night will help your from getting a heart attack. This is too far fetched, but would you rather have a pilot with a glass of wine in his system, than one who falls dead while piloting the plane.
Those films gave me a sensation as a young boy that pilots were a special breed who could drink all night and fly out in the early dawn to tackle the Nazis. They were unstopable. In every film I saw, whether they were British or American, the pilots always gathered at a pub aftwerwards for a heavy night of indulgence and some were carried out by their chaps to fly again the next morning.
Was this Hollywood and/or Rank to give us the idea that these young pilots were indestructible. For one thing, I don't think that they had alcohol testing in those days. No matter how bad your hangover was the next morning, you flew. Somehow they managed to win the Battle of Britain and then some.
Another point I want to make is if a pilot has a cough and he takes a dose of syrup for that, do you realize that most of them have 40% alcohol. If he's alergic to something and takes Claritin or some other equal brand, he may not operate heavy machinery etc...
The WHO again says that a glass of red wine at night will help your from getting a heart attack. This is too far fetched, but would you rather have a pilot with a glass of wine in his system, than one who falls dead while piloting the plane.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Now back in London
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the UK, causing death by dangerous driving even whilst stone cold sober, or even unstoned, is a criminal offence carrying a penalty of up to 10 years imprisonment.
As maximum tarrifs go, I think this a bit light, but that's the subject of another thread.
cur
As maximum tarrifs go, I think this a bit light, but that's the subject of another thread.
cur
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Toronto
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buzz Boy
Here's one:
http://www.jacdec.de/JAL.htm
Quote:
3.01.1977 Douglas DC-8-62F JA8054 46148 Anchorage-Intl AP /AK USA 2 + 3 0
With a cargo of 57 live cattle, the DC-8 was on a flight from Anchorage to Tokyo-Haneda (JL 8054). Very soon after liftoff the aircraft enetered a stall lost height and crashed 300 m past the runway. There were no survivors.
It was determined that the pilot in command had a blood alcohol level of 0.298 % at the time.
He rotated the DC-8 beyond its maximum angle resulting in a loss of lift. A small amount of ice accumulated on the aircraft´s wings during taxy for departure making the aircraft vulnerable to a stall.
Neither any other crewmember or one of the ground dispatcher made an attempt to prevent the captain from flying.
...Unquote
Here's one:
http://www.jacdec.de/JAL.htm
Quote:
3.01.1977 Douglas DC-8-62F JA8054 46148 Anchorage-Intl AP /AK USA 2 + 3 0
With a cargo of 57 live cattle, the DC-8 was on a flight from Anchorage to Tokyo-Haneda (JL 8054). Very soon after liftoff the aircraft enetered a stall lost height and crashed 300 m past the runway. There were no survivors.
It was determined that the pilot in command had a blood alcohol level of 0.298 % at the time.
He rotated the DC-8 beyond its maximum angle resulting in a loss of lift. A small amount of ice accumulated on the aircraft´s wings during taxy for departure making the aircraft vulnerable to a stall.
Neither any other crewmember or one of the ground dispatcher made an attempt to prevent the captain from flying.
...Unquote
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Globe
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading through this topic, I cannot help getting the idea that we have a bunch of grown-up men acting like adolescent boys, trying to find an excuse for using alcohol when they really shouldn't.
While I can understand somebody wanting scientifically proven, 100% sure method of being at absolutely zero level of alcohol at a certain time, I do not understand why you don't use moderation. As somebody here has said before, one unit of alcohol (i.e. one pint of beer, glass of wine etc) takes approximately two hours to burn off for a normal person. So, assuming you allow yourself a sleeping time of 8 hours, have a breakfast, travel to airport, and your body has more or less 10 hours to burn off alcohol. That is 5 units. Just have four, and you'll be safe. And, btw, your body doesn't wait until you are in bed to start burning off alcohol, its starts it right away, an extra safety margin - the drinking time.
Believe me, I used to have access to a breathalyzer and tested it, both on duty mornings (always achieved 0) and also sometimes off-duty mornings, after long and wet dinners. To have 0.09 per cent alcohol in your blood, say 7 o'clock in the morning, you'd really have to be p***ed the night before.
Yes, I can hear somebody saying that on short haul overnights, you're likely not to have the luxury of 8 hours rest in your hotel room. Fine, try having three pints, or maybe two. Or is it entirely impossible to have just one, or perhaps none? I know, difficult, but it can be done...
Also, people seem to think that body's normal metabolism can raise the alcohol level to above zero, especially with some diets.
Well, I know that if you eat Scandinavian dark sour bread and immediately blow into the brathalyzer, the needle will flicker, but after 5 minutes it won't. And have a teaspoon of your cough medicine, yes, again you may get a slight indication. But don't take your medicine just before reporting to duty. Take it first thing in the morning - or after airborne...
As for the effect of fatigue vs. alcohol, I agree, being fatigued can be as dangerous as having had a couple of drinks. But if you have a wet evening before a flight, you'll be fatigued before the start of the day. So I think we are talking about two different things here. Use of alcohol is something each one of us has a direct control on, fatigue, well, more a matter of rostering, management and FTLs.
While I can understand somebody wanting scientifically proven, 100% sure method of being at absolutely zero level of alcohol at a certain time, I do not understand why you don't use moderation. As somebody here has said before, one unit of alcohol (i.e. one pint of beer, glass of wine etc) takes approximately two hours to burn off for a normal person. So, assuming you allow yourself a sleeping time of 8 hours, have a breakfast, travel to airport, and your body has more or less 10 hours to burn off alcohol. That is 5 units. Just have four, and you'll be safe. And, btw, your body doesn't wait until you are in bed to start burning off alcohol, its starts it right away, an extra safety margin - the drinking time.
Believe me, I used to have access to a breathalyzer and tested it, both on duty mornings (always achieved 0) and also sometimes off-duty mornings, after long and wet dinners. To have 0.09 per cent alcohol in your blood, say 7 o'clock in the morning, you'd really have to be p***ed the night before.
Yes, I can hear somebody saying that on short haul overnights, you're likely not to have the luxury of 8 hours rest in your hotel room. Fine, try having three pints, or maybe two. Or is it entirely impossible to have just one, or perhaps none? I know, difficult, but it can be done...
Also, people seem to think that body's normal metabolism can raise the alcohol level to above zero, especially with some diets.
Well, I know that if you eat Scandinavian dark sour bread and immediately blow into the brathalyzer, the needle will flicker, but after 5 minutes it won't. And have a teaspoon of your cough medicine, yes, again you may get a slight indication. But don't take your medicine just before reporting to duty. Take it first thing in the morning - or after airborne...
As for the effect of fatigue vs. alcohol, I agree, being fatigued can be as dangerous as having had a couple of drinks. But if you have a wet evening before a flight, you'll be fatigued before the start of the day. So I think we are talking about two different things here. Use of alcohol is something each one of us has a direct control on, fatigue, well, more a matter of rostering, management and FTLs.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a nice house
Posts: 981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Days off are going to have to be redefined. At the moment they are meant to be days when you can do what you like, relax away from work, etc. but when you finish late, have 2 days off, then start early, you cannot go out with friends for the evening and have any drinks at all.
I'm not saying that alcohol is a necessity just that the rules and rosters are getting to the point where airlines rule your entire life, and there is no "time off" in reality.
I do not condone anyone going out and getting plastered the night before an early report.
But if the CAA should say that 1/4 of the drink drive limit is the maximum for aircrew over here, then they should provide rules "for the avoidance of fatigue" that mean you never fly with a fatigue level that is equivalen to 1/4 of the drink drive level.
But it doesn't happen.
So to all those observers out there who are telling aircrew not to drink, could you instead start lobbying the CAA to provide rules on fatigue that protect the passengers too?
I'm not saying that alcohol is a necessity just that the rules and rosters are getting to the point where airlines rule your entire life, and there is no "time off" in reality.
I do not condone anyone going out and getting plastered the night before an early report.
But if the CAA should say that 1/4 of the drink drive limit is the maximum for aircrew over here, then they should provide rules "for the avoidance of fatigue" that mean you never fly with a fatigue level that is equivalen to 1/4 of the drink drive level.
But it doesn't happen.
So to all those observers out there who are telling aircrew not to drink, could you instead start lobbying the CAA to provide rules on fatigue that protect the passengers too?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Globe
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, Bad medicine, I stand corrected. Dunno what I was thinking, probably had a drink too much last night...
Airbus Girl: true, it is a shame that we can't do whatever we like on the last day off. But, like you said, this again is a matter of rostering etc...
With the current developements in salaries, sometimes I feel like going to the nearest bank and robbing it, but can't do that either...
Airbus Girl: true, it is a shame that we can't do whatever we like on the last day off. But, like you said, this again is a matter of rostering etc...
With the current developements in salaries, sometimes I feel like going to the nearest bank and robbing it, but can't do that either...
In the 1970s, folk were pretty unaware of the effect of the demon drink. For example, beer in the Officers' Mess at Scampton was 20p per pint and there were 5 in a Vulcan crew. To pop in to the scruffs' bar and have a 'crew round' (everyone bought their £1's worth) wasn't unusual - and then we drove home. Because we just didn't know any better, had no idea of how many beers it took to go over the 80 milliwhatsits - and in any case, Lincolnshire Plod didn't persecute HM's aviators particularly.....
But nowadays there's no real excuse. Even as SLF in business class, it's easy to go over the limit. "Aperitif, Sir" (the little gin miniature is actually 47% abv!), then the meal "Wine sir?" Probably a 187 ml bottle. "Would sir like a cognac with his coffee?" Yes sir would - and a 2 unit bottle of cognac is quaffed, or probably more if the cabin staff have poured it. So that's around 6-7 units in 2 hours, not including whatever has been guzzled in the business lounge.... How many then drive home with that little lot inside them? Would they be over the UK limit? I don't know; fortunately I don't have to drive anything after an outbound business flight and inbound it'll be tomato juice with Tabasco in the lounge and one glass of wine max with the meal.
'Zero-limit' is not the same as 'zero tolerance'. Set a limit, but then educate people as to how to stay below it - don't just pontificate about 'no safe limit' or 'they'll only drink up to the limit if you tell them how' or any other such sanctimonious tosh.
But I do recall my early days on the Vickers Funbus when "Shutdown checks complete" would be immediately followed by a tray of industrial strength gin and tonics with ice and lemon in 'borrowed' ba glasses on a 'borrowed' ba silver plated tray. I hasten to add that was only when weren't flying again or driving for a day or so!
But nowadays there's no real excuse. Even as SLF in business class, it's easy to go over the limit. "Aperitif, Sir" (the little gin miniature is actually 47% abv!), then the meal "Wine sir?" Probably a 187 ml bottle. "Would sir like a cognac with his coffee?" Yes sir would - and a 2 unit bottle of cognac is quaffed, or probably more if the cabin staff have poured it. So that's around 6-7 units in 2 hours, not including whatever has been guzzled in the business lounge.... How many then drive home with that little lot inside them? Would they be over the UK limit? I don't know; fortunately I don't have to drive anything after an outbound business flight and inbound it'll be tomato juice with Tabasco in the lounge and one glass of wine max with the meal.
'Zero-limit' is not the same as 'zero tolerance'. Set a limit, but then educate people as to how to stay below it - don't just pontificate about 'no safe limit' or 'they'll only drink up to the limit if you tell them how' or any other such sanctimonious tosh.
But I do recall my early days on the Vickers Funbus when "Shutdown checks complete" would be immediately followed by a tray of industrial strength gin and tonics with ice and lemon in 'borrowed' ba glasses on a 'borrowed' ba silver plated tray. I hasten to add that was only when weren't flying again or driving for a day or so!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: EU
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
viaEGLL,
That's where you have to read a whole post to see what has been said before! Go back and look at what I said here earlier in this post and then you can Decide what someone is saying.
Airbusgirl sums up exactly what I was saying and in less words. Must be a clever girl!
That's where you have to read a whole post to see what has been said before! Go back and look at what I said here earlier in this post and then you can Decide what someone is saying.
Airbusgirl sums up exactly what I was saying and in less words. Must be a clever girl!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have just heard on the BBC news that both Captain and FO have resigned from BA.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this situation, if this information is true then I feel terribly sad for both individuals.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this situation, if this information is true then I feel terribly sad for both individuals.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
BA pilots resign over drink claims 01:59, Nov 20 2003
LONDON (Reuters) - Two British Airways pilots who were suspended last week over allegations they had been drinking before a flight have resigned, the airline says.
Captain William McAuliffe, 50, and first officer David Ryan, 26, were detained at Oslo airport last week shortly before going on duty to fly a passenger jet to London.
A BA spokeswoman said: "They (the two pilots) have resigned and their resignations have been accepted.
"The internal disciplinary investigation into the allegations made against a member of cabin crew is continuing."
The two pilots and a female purser were reported to Norwegian police by British Airways staff at Oslo Airport after they reported late for duty.
BA said the three crew members were alleged to have breached the airline's rules about alcohol consumption before duty.
They were about to fly to Heathrow. The service was cancelled and its 55 passengers eventually dispersed onto other services.
______________________________________________
BA's boozy pilots quit
By CHARLES RAE
and JAMIE PYATT
TWO boozy British Airways pilots who were arrested in their cockpit minutes before take-off resigned yesterday.
Captain William McAuliffe, 50, and First Officer David Ryan, 26, quit before BA could sack them.
Bosses have accepted the resignations “with immediate effect”. It means internal disciplinary action against the pair will not now take place.
Both were suspended after The Sun revealed last week they were arrested and breathalysed on an Airbus 320 due to fly to London from Oslo, Norway.
Cops had been called after ground crew staff said the cockpit “reeked of alcohol”. They both failed breath tests.
It later emerged Ryan drank so much he could not be woken by hotel staff.
A third crew member, purser Michele Giannandrea, 48, from Manchester, was also arrested.
She failed a breath test. Action against her is going ahead.
BA chiefs are still waiting for blood tests on all three to arrive from Norway. But the pilots were told by bosses their careers were effectively over.
Capt McAuliffe, of Dublin, earned around £75,000 and had been with BA for 13 years.
First Officer Ryan, of Keysoe, Beds, earned around £50,000 and was with BA for two years.
Neither will get any pay-off and it will be difficult for them to work for any other airline.
BA has a total ban on drinking eight hours before a flight.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003532650,00.html
LONDON (Reuters) - Two British Airways pilots who were suspended last week over allegations they had been drinking before a flight have resigned, the airline says.
Captain William McAuliffe, 50, and first officer David Ryan, 26, were detained at Oslo airport last week shortly before going on duty to fly a passenger jet to London.
A BA spokeswoman said: "They (the two pilots) have resigned and their resignations have been accepted.
"The internal disciplinary investigation into the allegations made against a member of cabin crew is continuing."
The two pilots and a female purser were reported to Norwegian police by British Airways staff at Oslo Airport after they reported late for duty.
BA said the three crew members were alleged to have breached the airline's rules about alcohol consumption before duty.
They were about to fly to Heathrow. The service was cancelled and its 55 passengers eventually dispersed onto other services.
______________________________________________
BA's boozy pilots quit
By CHARLES RAE
and JAMIE PYATT
TWO boozy British Airways pilots who were arrested in their cockpit minutes before take-off resigned yesterday.
Captain William McAuliffe, 50, and First Officer David Ryan, 26, quit before BA could sack them.
Bosses have accepted the resignations “with immediate effect”. It means internal disciplinary action against the pair will not now take place.
Both were suspended after The Sun revealed last week they were arrested and breathalysed on an Airbus 320 due to fly to London from Oslo, Norway.
Cops had been called after ground crew staff said the cockpit “reeked of alcohol”. They both failed breath tests.
It later emerged Ryan drank so much he could not be woken by hotel staff.
A third crew member, purser Michele Giannandrea, 48, from Manchester, was also arrested.
She failed a breath test. Action against her is going ahead.
BA chiefs are still waiting for blood tests on all three to arrive from Norway. But the pilots were told by bosses their careers were effectively over.
Capt McAuliffe, of Dublin, earned around £75,000 and had been with BA for 13 years.
First Officer Ryan, of Keysoe, Beds, earned around £50,000 and was with BA for two years.
Neither will get any pay-off and it will be difficult for them to work for any other airline.
BA has a total ban on drinking eight hours before a flight.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003532650,00.html
BEagle !
<<20p per pint >>
It was 9p a pint at either Cotty or Wyton. Unsurprisingly, can't remember which - you could have had 10 pints each (almost a Friday nights worth
)
p.s. No scruffs bar these days. Basil quite shocked when standing in mess bar a couple of years ago to note many growbags in evidence - world gone to the dogs! Baah! etc.
<<20p per pint >>
It was 9p a pint at either Cotty or Wyton. Unsurprisingly, can't remember which - you could have had 10 pints each (almost a Friday nights worth
)p.s. No scruffs bar these days. Basil quite shocked when standing in mess bar a couple of years ago to note many growbags in evidence - world gone to the dogs! Baah! etc.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see they have now resigned.
Sad ending, but if you indulge in stupidity then what is the alternative.
There is no excuse for any pilot to drink when the rules and common sense dictate he should not.
If anybody thinks they can hold their drink and it does not affect their motor-skills, then try this on your days off !
http://www.hurtwood.demon.co.uk/Fun/copter.swf
Keep safe and well sober.
Cheers
TG
Sad ending, but if you indulge in stupidity then what is the alternative.
There is no excuse for any pilot to drink when the rules and common sense dictate he should not.
If anybody thinks they can hold their drink and it does not affect their motor-skills, then try this on your days off !
http://www.hurtwood.demon.co.uk/Fun/copter.swf
Keep safe and well sober.
Cheers
TG